Was "Area 51" book, now cesium additives in JP-7

[Dark Eagle]

Mr. Day's review article as well as the many others who presented feedback on Ms. Jacobsen's book have summarized mostly negative results.

Mr. Day's points are well taken, and possibly the most accurate account of the book I have read. I like the way he has paid special tribute to the details in perspective such as his demonstration to the governments use of "misleading labels".

He is correct that Ms. J's book is fairly amateurish and contains many errors. I discount these with little importance. It's just fluff in the maze, it's not important to the big picture.

Dis-information is a reality in this business and misleading labels are a key element. There are many facts about Area 51 that will remain a secret well into the future.

I on the other hand, take a different perspective. Everyone has different experiences and education resulting in different perspectives. Some people like Peter Merlin are virtual encyclopedias of technical information with no regards for paranormal influence. Simply meaning, experiences or information beyond the scope of normal scientific understanding or that indicates phenomena that are understood to be outside of science's current ability to explain or measure. Paranormal phenomena are distinct from certain hypotheticals.

As a matter of fact I do have issues with the "Area 51" hobbyist. I do have respect for their opinions and their facts, however I just "DON'T GET IT" when it comes to their "instigations of" and "threats of encroachments" on the high level military installation. Mr. Arnu from the DLR web site states that the government is "killing people" and he wants to know why. I am baffled by all of this.

Mr. Day's review, of course is limited to a number words as well as the goals of the editorial staff of the the SF Chronicle. This is much more of a task than it may seem. How do I know this? I worked for the SF Chronicle and the SF Examiner under the SF Newspaper Agency and then for the Hearst Corporation for seven years. I was also selected to write technical articles for them for which I declined when I disclosed the facts that their production department was putting toxic compounds in the printing inks. But, that's another story. I am not a writer by trade, but I do know how they think. Hearst was the king of sensationalism, that will always be the forefront of selling the news for it's the advertisers that pay them based on the number of subscribers. The cost in newspaper production is paramount, while in their employ, I used my experience in aviation to design, modify, and rebuild their printing presses which I was accredited for saving countless millions in production cost.

What are the basis of my perspectives on this subject?

Prior to retirement from the Hearst Corp, I worked for the Lockheed Corp and then Lockheed / Martin as an Aerospace Maintenance Metals Technologist contractor for the 160th AVIM, Team UH-60 Blackhawk and CH-47 Chinnook. You may have heard of these guys in recent news.

Since retirement from the U.S.A.F., my previous assignments included Chief Metals Technologist, 9th MXS, 9th RW, ACC in support of the U-2's, T-38's.

9th RW, Industrial Safety, Hazardous Materials Survey Team, Management Planner / Inspector, Deductive Analysis/Methodology and Polarized Light Microscopy at the McCrone Institute. This is where the "agencies" send their forensic scientist. The position required a code of ethics. It was my ethical duty to comply with regulations for which I swore to uphold.

9th SRW, Assistant Chief of Metals Technology, 7 Level Supervisor, Trainer, Code 42 Machinist SR-71 Blackbird. Also U-2's, T-38's, KC-135Q, and all their support equipment. Supply Equipment Custodian, Extremely Hazardous Materials Representative. The Blackbird's were considered the most advanced production vehicle in existence made of the rarest aviation metals ever developed.

Previous assignments included Machinist 81st TFW, RAF Bentwaters / RAF Woodbridge. Early 80's. An assignment for which opened my mind to paranormal phenomena.

93rd BW, SAC (Heavy), PRP Machinist, B-52, KC-135A, Performed Maintenance on Nuclear Assets as well as cocked nuclear weapon systems.

940th AFRES, Machinist KC-135A.

92nd BW, SAC (Heavy), PRP Machinist, B-52, KC-135A, Performed Maintenance on Nuclear Assets as well as cocked nuclear weapon systems.

My personal influences are my friends and family members who worked and fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, The Cold War, Dessert Shield/Desert Storm, Operation Enduring Freedom in Iraq and the others who wear the uniform today. My father In-law who fought in WWII landing on the beaches of Guadalcanal, North Africa, Sicily, Salerno, Normandy, and Okinawa. My two Uncles who fought in Korea, one of them became an Engineer with the NACA and NASA developing the A-12/SR-71 Inlet models for the Ames Laboratory Wind tunnels. My father who at the age of 15 lied so he could join the Navy in the Merchant Marines delivering supplies through the mine infested waters of the Atlantic and Mediterranean. My brother who joined the Air Force during the VN conflict and who later helped me join the Air Force. My grandson who fought in Iraq with the Special Ranger Intel/Surveillance Unit as a Combat Medic and my nephew who is now an Airborne Ranger SAW Specialist with Geronimo Company.

I do not discount any information as a source of understanding. For example, inaccurate data will demonstrate a lack of knowledge which prioritizes it as such. Investigations and solving problems must be accomplished at various levels from many directions. The science of analysis to discover facts is based on specific methodology.

My simplistic approach is a result of having to train very young troops with limited education in the quality and fast repair of advanced aerospace weapon systems under emergency conditions.

I believe that the accurate recording of history is detrimental to our survival as a species. The accuracy of history's function is to learn from past mistakes otherwise history is just gloating.

About the book and the Roswell connection and from what I absorb from her writings in the book Area 51,

The negitives-

She has limited understanding.

She maintains a biased and personal relationship with her informants effecting the the book.

She believes what she was told without consideration that some of it could be misdirected information, purposeful dis-information, information contaminated by time or lack of or loss of memory.

The final edit was influenced by sensationalism to sell more books.

The positives-

I believe her intent was based on ethics in which she achieved her goals.

I think the sensationalism was paramount in selling more books which greatly attributed to the history and legacy of our nation's secret heroes of the Cold War.

I think the Roswell connection plays a part in that the majority of people who have ever heard of Area 51 relate it to Extraterrestrial Alien Conspiracies theory and folklore.

She relays the message that certain agencies within the government had acted negligently contaminating vast areas of the American homeland. These and other projects were built in haste during the height of the Cold War nonetheless those men and women were heroic patriots on the highest level.

Of most importance, she discloses the use of the toxic element cesium. Whereas she introduces Mr. Ed Lovick's biography partially detailing the use of the these compounds. Why is this important to history? Because it wasn't until the mid to late eighties that the government discovered the toxicity problems with cesium exposures to the environment. In that cesium was discovered to be absorbed and replace potassium in living organism (food Chain). Well after tens of billions of pounds of cesium laced jet fuel had been burned in the atmosphere as well as contaminating aircraft operating locations.

This information will help to establish more correct base line studies for these dangerous materials by the EPA and CDC. It will also help to establish a cultural awareness as required by environmental regulations and need-to-know laws that protect workers and children.

What do I think of the Roswell content?

I think it was dis-information. I think the subject goes on and on, and since this informant was the last witness "they" needed to re-document the history to elude from the reality. The reality that "they" have determined too hazardous for the republic.

I do have my own theory which of course is still conjecture. I know it is nearly as hard to believe as the Jacobsen story, but a reader has to place himself into another time in history. This link may help read it before reading my theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

 

[Stargazer]

Interesting and very well put, Dark Eagle. Your experience and knowledge certainly call for high respect.

However, allow me to be a little puzzled when you say something like this:

I believe that the accurate recording of history is detrimental to our survival as a species.

Could you clarify that point, please?

 

[SOC]

I believe that the accurate recording of history is detrimental to our survival as a species. The accuracy of history's function is to learn from past mistakes otherwise history is just gloating.

My first degree was in history. Therefore, I have to disagree to a point.

Yes, history can certainly often be distorted by the "winner's perspective". But there is nothing inherently wrong with accurate history. Accurate history does not also disregard the fact or presence of unreported events or other things, such as the specifics of what goes on at Area 51. We know of Area 51, we know of some of what went on there and are free to speculate (or, in Jacobsen's case, blurt whatever the hell we want), but that doesn't discount it from history. And not knowing what went on there doesn't inherently make any of the rest of our history any more or less accurate, just often incomplete. It may make the understanding of, reason behind, or motivations for certain events misreported, but that doesn't necessarily miscolor the entire field of study or its reported results.

But "detrimental to our survival as a species"? How is reporting the past going to eliminate mankind? It won't: people both are and are not stupid.

Let me explain.

There are events and incidents from the Cold War that, had they been reported at the time, could very well have gotten us stuck in a thermonuclear war. That, however, would have been the "present", not historical information. Report an incident like that now and see what happens. The people at the top of the pyramid are smart enough to realize that times, alliances, and global relations, etc. have changed a great deal since then. The USA isn't going to start a nuclear war today over an incident that occurred between it and a now non-existent nation, for example; that'd be the definition of stupid. The people making up the general public are stupid (and this is an overly simplified analogy, I don't mean to imply anyone here is stupid...unless someone with a certain new book is reading). By that I mean that they are often too infatuated with the asinine and the irrelevant (hence the presence of reality TV, for example) to even care what happened 20, 30, 40, or 50, or even 100 years ago, and that is dependent on their ability to even realize where the other party is on a map and also realize that yes, at one point, they were our "enemy". Or, conversely, they are not stupid, and have the same logical view as the people at the top of the pyramid. And that's using the idea of a relatively recent event to make the point. Things trend a great deal more towards the reaction of the "smart people" if you restructure or modify the understanding of an event hundreds or thousands of years ago.

There will always be the lunatic fringe to cry foul when something is reported, and try to manipulate the presentation of history as a result, but that would be called Directional Influence. $5 says you guys can work that one out, my money's on some weirdo with a House avatar ;D But at that point you're distorting history, purposely misrepresenting it to fit your own purpose, and any resultant vector for change (or species destruction) is on the shoulders of the misrepresenters and not the fact that the history was accurately reported in the first place. Knowledge is a tool, not an excuse for asinine policy. Like any tool, the responsibility for its use is with the wielder, not the tool. If the screw doesn't go in, you don't blame the screwdriver, you blame the idiot who picked up a flathead when he needed a Phillips.

This information will help to establish more correct base line studies for these dangerous materials by the EPA and CDC. It will also help to establish a cultural awareness as required by environmental regulations and need-to-know laws that protect workers and children.

...thereby demonstrating the accurate reporting of an event having a beneficial outcome for the species as a whole.

 

[Dark Eagle]

Sorry about that. I meant just the opposite. :-[

I should have said-

"I believe that the (inaccurate) recording of history is detrimental to our survival as a species."

 

[SOC]

Sorry about that. I meant just the opposite. :-[

I should have said-

"I believe that the (inaccurate) recording of history is detrimental to our survival as a species."

Even so, that's still a sort of contradiction. If we learn that something was wrong, or that there was something not reported in the first place, we've been getting along just fine up to that point, relatively speaking. I just don't get how you can make such a broad-reaching statement like that and expect it to float, especially without providing an example of how it's going to result in the end of humanity?

 

[Dark Eagle]

I'm not condemning what was done in the past. The facts are that the circumstances at the time warranted all efforts to defeat tyranny. I consider those men heroes, geniuses, and patriots.

As time goes by we have learned things that turned out to be negatives results in the use of such elements like cesium.

It was once thought that the cesium released into the environment say from nuclear reactions, would settle into the soil and become harmless. Then decades later they discovered that plants absorb it in place of potassium. This reintroduces it into the food chain and it will continue to spread as long as life exist on the planet.

While we thought we were "getting along just fine" is not the reality.

If we keep on releasing cesium into the environment more people will continue to be exposed. If the government hides these facts then the base line data for exposures and studies that are used by the EPA and CDC will be flawed.

The CDC gives only information that cesium exposures to the public are very rare and small as a result of being used in electronic equipment. They do not know that it was used as a jet fuel additive in which tens of billions of pounds were used and burned in the upper atmosphere and contaminated local operating locations.

I would not necessarily say it would "end humanity", but exposure to cesium does damage cells and mutate DNA. So in effect it could certainly change humanity. The cause and effects are to be determine by the ends users and scientist.

My point is that once this information was declassified, it should have been reported. That's the scope of environmental law and regulation. Not reporting it may be construed as concealment or a cover-up which is definitely against the law.

As time passes we should learn from accurately recorded history and correct, if possible past mistakes and hopefully, most of all, not repeat them.

 

[quellish]

It was once thought that the cesium released into the environment say from nuclear reactions, would settle into the soil and become harmless. Then decades later they discovered that plants absorb it in place of potassium. This reintroduces it into the food chain and it will continue to spread as long as life exist on the planet.

Are you sure about the chemistry behind that?

Cesium is an alkali metal, and no alkali metal exists naturally in elemental form because of their characteristic electron shell configuration.

For example, sodium itself is very reactive but it does not occur that way in nature. Sodium chloride, a salt of that alkali metal, is common and has very different properties than elemental sodium.

 

[Stargazer]

Although what you are saying here makes sense and I do agree with most of it, there is one aspect that you have not considered:

Way before the truth is known about the dangers of a substance, there are deciders (be they politicians, military chiefs, or industry leaders) who make a conscious decision at some point to use a substance without giving independent research enough time to test its effects on the long run. And the root of it all is that they represent interests or entities (be they states or companies) whose corporate survival is deemed more important than individual life. It is good enough to these people that specialists have declared the substance or the technology harmless. No double- or triple-checking, no moral restraints, just blind faith because they hear what they are desperate to believe. Think of the decades of ruining nature with pesticides, and it's only recently, after over a half-century of their widespread use, that science had unveiled the possible connexion between these and a loss of fertility, among numerous other ills.

Today, the same irresponsible attitude still prevails. For instance, despite numerous studies pointing to the dangers of repeated exposure to UMTS waves (10 times more harmful than GSM), the phone companies have marketed the stuff on the grounds that this research wasn't done over a sufficiently long period of time for it to be relevant. Instead of saying: let's keep the technology experimental until we know for sure, they go for a "market now, feel sorry later" attitude.

 

[sublight]

Dark Eagle, did you have a bunch of posts about Cesium over at Dreamland resort?

 

[Arjen]

Cesium is an alkali metal, and no alkali metal exists naturally in elemental form because of their characteristic electron shell configuration.

True, but even in compounds the isotope remains radioactive, and harmful.
<edit> I noticed this discussion is not about radioactive caesium as a byproduct of nuclear mishaps, more about chemical toxicity. There are more toxic substances around, all the same, releasing large quantities into the atmosphere falls firmly into the category I'd-rather-you-didn't. As noted before, caesium tends to accumulate in plant tissues; that insures caesium, once it enters the cycle of life, stays for a long time.

 

[Dark Eagle]

All I can go by is the information that is provided by the CDC. Cesium does occur naturally in small amounts. Concentrations occur in certain areas and are mined at places such as Bernic Lake Manitoba.

The CDC states that it is a dangerous material and provides all the known data. I am not a chemist, but I had fairly advanced training in the use of hazardous materials. The End Users are responsible for complying with all the laws. The Air Force is not exempt.

Here are some interesting facts and questions to ponder.

What is the one most important fact about Area 51?

Dr. Abernethy, Pratt & Whitney states that he was working on a project for the "Navy" in 1957. Developing a remote site for scrubbing exhaust from the J-58 engine that would use "poison fuels".

In 2007 the CIA released the OXCART document written by Kelly Johnson. He told of the use of cesium and that it was responsible for the existence of the Blackbirds.


Ed Lovick confirms those facts in his book. It was his idea, but that he was looking into an injection system which indicates a concern for safety to the workers who could be exposed to the leaking fuel, etc.

Ben Rich, states that "Panther Piss" used to Ionize the exhaust plume of the Blackbirds. Not generally a name given to anything good.

The Blackbirds were "perhaps" the most important program the ever existed at Area 51. Commented by the CIA Director being as if not more important than the Manhattan Project.

That document, had the name Area 51 as well as other words censored out.

When the CIA historian, Dr. Robarge, rewrote that history in his Archangel Story, he completely omitted any reference to the use of cesium. A historian leaving out the most important aspect in the history of aviation. WUWT ????

Personnel refer to an MSDS for guidance in the use of hazardous materials. The MSDS for JP-7 list the component as a trade secret. And newer updated MSDS for JP-7 give instructions to use protective equipment such as impervious body suit with air supplied respiratory protection.

Since myself as well as thousands of other workers who were exposed to JP-7, some whom I know to have unexplained cancers and even death. Have a curiosity to the facts of these exposures.

The Blackbird operated until 1990 with the AF and somewhat until 1999. Right to know laws governing workers exposures to hazardous material was enacted around 1985.

The Environmental Assessment Report for the Deactivation of the SR-71 listed an unknown fuel additive, but stated it's use was for flashpoint modification. It also said that the leaking fuel contaminated areas in which creeks flowed to new residential developments. Falsifying or omitting information in environmental assessment reports ?? Property use disclosure laws ??

Lawsuits in from Area 51 workers stated that old jet fuel was used to start fires in pits during the development of the F-117, could that jet fuel have been JP-7 with cesium fuel additive?

To this day the Air Force maintains no knowledge of it use.

Yes, there is a problematic culture in the use of hazardous materials. But the people who enforce the laws should be the ones setting the examples. I have no complaint about the development or use of the material in accordance with the law. But in this case there is a strong suspicion that laws were not complied after a certain date and that resulted in children being unlawfully exposed to cesium. In my case, I was told that JP-7 was similar to kerosene and harmless. I like others would launder our fuel soaked uniforms at home in the same washer and dryer used for our children clothes. I had later develop tumors, and my children also develop tumors, one of my children had to have surgery to remove growths at the base of her brain. That was not good experience and one that will affect her for the rest of her life.

The only way to change this culture is to make people more aware of the facts by recording history as accurately as possible. When this information was declassified it should have been investigated and not hidden.

 

[Dark Eagle]

Dark Eagle, did you have a bunch of posts about Cesium over at Dreamland resort?

I did bring the issue up a few years ago at the DRL site thinking that since the site was about Area 51 they would know something about the main reason for the existence of it's important project. But they were pretty much clueless about it and had no interest in the subject. I was also perplex by their attitudes and not really interested in trying to learn about, surveilling, eavesdropping, or photographing what goes on at Area 51 because I had a pretty good idea what goes on there already.

I may have had the wrong impression but, it appeared that the sites owner who I'm not sure of his intentions, seems to think the government is trying to kill people there and therefore instigates people in hiking trips to the sites border. Photographing delivery contractors and security personnel. Some of their time is spent researching and recovering materials from remote crash sites. These kinds of activities are not commensurate with the responsibilities of military personnel and can be construed as violations of the law. It's also against the basic codes of the civil air patrol. It's OK to honor, view, and respect these crash sites but not to touch or disturb them. Convincing people to go out to remote test sites where extremely dangerous materials were once tested is not wise. When the security personnel have to respond to threats, weather it's in a truck or helicopter, it puts their lives at risk. It also waste tax payers money.

Another thing about the web site is I have a feeling it's being used a a disinformation source. I suspect the site is designed to over exaggerate the number of visitors to the site in order to illegally capitalized on pay per click advertising. It also contains annoying popup ads that are known to contain malicious software or spy ware. I will also say that it is not an open forum and subject to censoring. On the good side, it is interesting to see how much they think they know.

It's a great source of detailed facts from guys like Peter Merlin, who is a virtual encyclopedia of information. But, in my line of "hands on work" where results account for everything, having only detailed facts to get the job done is useless. You just have to "know intuition". That accounts for at least half of what completes the mission and without it the Blackbirds would have never left the ground.

Mr. Merlin and the good folks from DLR have unfairly criticized the AREA 51 book, picking it apart by tiny details that do not affect the point of the book. Mr. Merlin should not be the one to throw stones, I watched him on a TV show removing pieces of aircraft from a crash site and having them tested for proof in some UFO mystery.

So, as far as I'm concern, when someone says "there are no aliens", I just say, how do you know, no one knows. The guys at DLR are so dead set against any talk of aliens or UFO's that that make themselves sound silly about it. They do not know whats out there, the people who worked out there don't know everything that's out there. That's like saying no oceans exist because I never saw one.

Sorry if I sound so over the top about this but, if my grandson were killed trying to intercept a bunch looky loos on the top of Tickaboo Peak, I would be really pissed off.

 

[sublight]

I think the burn pits caused infinitely more health problems than the Cesium did, or will in the future. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/8579490/Area-51-the-plane-truth.html
Additionally I don't think you are going to find a lot of people who are critical of Peter Merlin or his work. Annie Jacobsen on the other hand has written a piece of garbage that is disrespectful to all those who have worked at the facility....

 

[Dark Eagle]

I think the burn pits caused infinitely more health problems than the Cesium did, or will in the future. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/8579490/Area-51-the-plane-truth.html
Additionally I don't think you are going to find a lot of people who are critical of Peter Merlin or his work. Annie Jacobsen on the other hand has written a piece of garbage that is disrespectful to all those who have worked at the facility....

Did you have any medical documentation for cause and effect on the type or amounts of cesium used or any information about the materials that were burned in those pits?

People may not realize that the jet fuel that was reported to be used in starting those pit fires may have been left over cesium laced JP-7 from the OXCART / SR-71 Program.

I would not say that one would cause more harm than the other. The science of cause and effect are vast which depends on many factors. Do people realize how much fuel was burned and for how many years?

I have read statements from people who got sick out there, they said one of the main symptoms was COPD and respiratory aliments. Cesium displaces potassium which regulates the heart. Cesium propagates in the food chain so it will continue to be introduce to living organisms. That's why the are dumping out milk in Japan. Cesium released from Fukushima contaminated the cattle feed.

With all due respect for Mr. Merlin, I don't follow or keep up what any of those writers or bloggers did at Area 51 or what any of them actually did in those reconnaissance programs. What exactly did Mr. Merlin do on any of these projects, what was his specialty or job?

As far as Ms. Jacobsen goes, she's a reporter, an investigative journalist, her job, goals, and responsibility was to inform the public about ethics. (secret government agencies poisoning the planet). Her second responsibility was to her employer in the use of sensationalism to sell books for money. So, she sweet talked the guys into telling their story. That's her job, that's what she does. I think they were naive in doing so, I think they should have wrote their own book. I think they were only a smaller percentage of the people interviewed for the book anyway. Vehemently criticizing her for that is like kicking a dog for lying down.

My sense is that because the book was called AREA 51, they took it for granted that it was all about them. This is a hard situation because it sets them up for disappointment, they can not make an unbiased viewpoint because they can't see the forest for the trees. It's kind of sad really, but on a positive note the sensationalism will ultimately tell more people about their heroic achievements.

Mr. Barnes the president of the Roadrunners has already made a disclaimer to those strange stories of UFO's. That's a good thing. They seem like they are all still freinds and doing book signing tours. That doesn't look like they feel so hurt or disrespected to me. http://td-barnes.com/blog/?p=36

If they really wanted to get out the truth, then why don't they bring up the subject of why the CIA historian hid the facts about cesium? Are these fearless heroes still really scared of what they call "Potential Litigation"? Why and from who? "The Enemy Within" Who are they? Is it the justice system they fear? Is it America they fear?

I know of heroes, who against all odds stare in the face of death even through the challenge of their superiors they continue to do what is right for America and the World.

Let see if guys like Mr. Merlin or Mr. Day for that matter can make a challenge to reveal the facts of cesium usage on the front page of the SF Chronicle or the LA Times. That would deserve respect in my book.

They did what was right then and they need to do was is right now.

 

[Byeman]

I have read statements from people who got sick out there, they said one of the main symptoms was COPD and respiratory aliments. Cesium displaces potassium which regulates the heart. Cesium propagates in the food chain so it will continue to be introduce to living organisms. That's why the are dumping out milk in Japan. Cesium released from Fukushima contaminated the cattle feed.

The issue with cesium in Japan is radioactivity and not toxicity.

 

[Mat Parry]

FWIW, I'm a chemist by trade (although this is no guarantee that I'm a good one! ;D my comments below are in blue text, sorry for the colours)

It's my understanding that the Caesium found in milk in Japan is causing concern as it is present in the form of radioactive isotopes. To avoid confusion a clear differentiation needs to be made between.....

• The health hazards of a notional fuel additive using salts of non-radioactive Caesium isotopes
• The health hazards of radioactive Caesium isotopes spewed from a malfunctioning nuclear reactor

both have hazards but the radioactive materials are considerably more dangerous

It is well documented that the addition of Alkali metals to A-12 exhaust gasses was proposed by Ed Lovick (I'll trust Ed Lovick's book Radar Man over Annie Jacobsen's.... 'dramatisation' as a reliable source for that) BUT THIS IS NOT PROOF THAT THE TECHNOLOGY WAS APPLIED

Mrs Jacobsen's version of events from "AREA 51"
president Eisenhower told Richard Bissell that Lockheed must deliver one last proof of concept test that focused on radar evasion. However a problem had been discovered, radar waves would echo around in the huge engine exhausts and give large radar returns. Kelly Johnson believed he CIA would accept this design weakness, "Ike wants a plane from Mandrake the magician," Johnson told the team and added that the president would settle for something less

Ed Lovick's more trustworthy Version of a A-12 design proposal review meeting late summer 1959
The exhausts were 60 inches in diameter so they returned large amounts of energy at all frequencies of interest and over large angles to the rear.

Dr Bissell was so concerned he considered abandoning the project. Ed Lovick suddenly thought of a solution and suggested a fuel additive that would be ionised by the high exhaust gas temperatures and thereby absorb or scatter the radar energy.

Kelly Johnson later exclaimed that this suggestion may have saved the program

within a week, in August 1959, the CIA awarded a contract to design the A-12
(NB// obviously in such a short timescale there could be no tested proof that Ed Lovick's project saving idea actually worked, even so the design contract was signed)

production of real prototype aircraft was contingent upon demonstrating a sufficiently low RCS signature by January 1960
According to Lovick, the first exhaust tests were performed in April 1960 ??? on a J-57 engine running on afterburner on a test stand at P&W in Florida. the first test used a sodium salt fuel additive (not a caesium salt), Potassium salts were used in subsequent tests. They observed much more ionisation than expected (a good thing for radar scattering) due to using liquid fuel additives (Lovicks idea of using Caesium was based on assumptions and data relating to alkali metals in their gaseous form). In liquid form the salt molecules appear to have clustered before ionisation (in aerosol droplets?)the net result being that sodium, potassium and caesium salts proved equally effective (Sodium salts are much cheaper and more readily available so why use Caesium???)

Further lab testing was done at the P&W Willagoos turbine labs in East Hartford Connecticut, The results of the tests all indicated that good shielding would require at least 80% afterburner operation under cruising conditions (NB, HELP REQUIRED, is 80% afterburner a realistic cruising condition for the A-12?) Willagoos tests had used additives at 25% to 50% in fuel (by weight?) of Sodium, Potassium or Caesium. One effective Caesium additive was 50% Caesium Valerate but was not fuel soluble so had the be injected into the exhaust stream just aft of the nozzles (e.g. 50% Caesium Valerate by weight in fuel? for the sake of argument this implies Caesium Valerate additive had to be injected into the exhaust at the same rate as the engine consumed jet fuel. Obviously the additive would be used at a huge rate and at best this plasma shielding could only be sustained for a short period of time unless the additive tank was planned to be comparable in size to the fuel tank!)

It is worth noting that Kelly Johnson had originally felt the customer would accept the engine nozzle design flaw, by January 1961 Eisenhower was no longer president, later in February 1962 Bissell resigned. Is it possible the new customer was more accepting towards the flawed design?

A fuel soluble compound that finally was used in flight tests was 30% Caesium metal in dialkyl phosphate (To illustrate the consequences here lets ignore differences in the density of fuel and additive and assume the same density for both, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE. 30% of the combustable potential of the jet fuel was lost to accommodate the additive? this would seem to imply significant erosion the performance of the aircraft as originally designed. is it too simplistic to suggest that in order to maintain performance, the the fuel tanks would need to be increased by 30% and addative doped fuel consumption rates to also increase by 30%?) Lovick states the last test of the effects of fuel additives occured in mid 1965.

Strangely on the next page Lovick talks of anti-radar test flights, the last test of exhaust plume ionisation being done in the fall of 1967, using an A-12 aircraft flying over the groom lake flight test range. That was the last of the anti-radar effort.

Taking all of the above at face value, it's not clear why Caesium would have to be used when Sodium and Potassium salts worked just as well. Although, as Caesium is harder to obtain (and easier to track it's production and consumption) it could be missinformation to discourage or monitor foregin powers replicating the technology. However the underlying tone of all of the above strikes me that ultimately the effort was unsuccessful, it was a good idea that bought Lockheed some time and as the programme progressed it became harder and harder to cancel due to the design flaw. For the sake of all who served in close proximity to the Blackbirds, I hope I'm right, but I woudn't be surprised if I'm hopelessly wrong.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Even if a *tiny* amount of a pollutant was added to SR-71 exhaust to reduce RCS, it would only be needed when the SR-71 was somewhere where being picked up on radar would be a problem. Thus it's hardly likely to be needed over the CONUS.

 

[blackstar]

Okay, haven't the rest of you figured out that Dark Eagle is nuts?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Doesn't mean we can't discuss (and potentially refute) the ideas presented.

 

[Mat Parry]

Even if a *tiny* amount of a pollutant was added to SR-71 exhaust to reduce RCS, it would only be needed when the SR-71 was somewhere where being picked up on radar would be a problem. Thus it's hardly likely to be needed over the CONUS.

Agreed, this would seem to be the most sensible solution, the apparent abscence of an additive tank in any documentation or support crew memory would indicate that this technology was never applied.

Dark Eagle's concern appears to be based more about the alternative situation that all JP-7 used by blackbirds was doped with a Caesium additive.... I suppose a halfway house would be that for the bulk of the flight "clean JP-7" was used however there could also have been a special "doped JP-7" fuel tank which the pilot (or an automated ECM response) could switch to for "Stealth Mode"

To be honest from an OPSEC point of view I'm not sure which of these 3 senarios would be easier to hide.

I don't think either solution was used. Time will tell (probably not within my lifetime though if the CIA/US Air Force really did crop-dust the world with Caesium)

 

[Mat Parry]

To confuse the matter even further, in his book "Skunk Works" Ben Rich describes the function of the "panther piss" fuel additive as being used to spoof IR detectors??? Rich was a thermodynamacist so unlikey to confuse heat with radar countermeasures.

Ionisation of exhaust plumes to alter IR signature?? That reminds me of my own favourite nonsense....
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10355.0.html

which inevitably mutated into this...

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11169.0.html :'( :'( :'(

The ionisation experiments (Especially Kempster and the noisy Emerald wind tunnel tests) do really fascinate me. I'd love to belive we're all looking in the wrong direction but I doubt it.

 

[Dark Eagle]

Sorry if some of you think I'm "nuts". I have been called worst in the process repairing and launching Blackbirds. Try Red X'ing an SR-71 that was being prepped for a mission of the highest national priority, telling them that their bird is not leaving the shelter really gets those commanders in a really bad mood. More than a few times I've had full bird colonels jumping up and down screaming in my face. After that, a few rude comments are nothing to this cat.

By the way, did you know that ridicule is part of the dis-information process?

The CDC states regarding the health effects of cesium "The chemical properties of stable and radioactive cesium isotopes are identical and are described in Chapter 4."

I may as well provide some other links to explain my post.

This one refers to Dr. Robert Abernethy from Pratt & Whitney. On the second page he tells his experience with the details on poison fuels with the J-58. (So they did know they were working with poison compounds)

http://www.bobabernethy.com/pdfs/Never%20Told%20Tales%20of%20P&W3.pdf

Note the date is 1957. He ends the paragraph thankfully that the test were never run. I sent him a copy of the original OXCART document and he said he never heard about that and seemed very surprised by it ?????

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is the link to the original OXCART document. I would suggest making a copy before it disappears. Compare it to the Archangel document written by the CIA historian. You will notice no mention of cesium in his document.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/browse_docs.asp?doc_no=0001458639&no_pages=0025&showPage=0001

Page 4.
" By this time we were working with P&W on a J58 engine. To overcome the afterburner problem of a large radar cross section return from the aft quadrant, we proposed the use of cesium additive to the fuel. This was first brought up by Mr. Ed Lovick of ADP, and its final development was passed over to P&W. It was eventually a basic part of our cross section reduction methods."

Kelly Johnson again confirms in his document that cesium was at least one of three reasons to go ahead with the project and "eventually a basic part of the cross section reduction methods".

Now realized that this document was published in 1968. Three years after Ed Lovcik says the end of testing in 1965. (The end of "testing" does not mean they stopped using it.)

It should also be noted that Ed Lovick indicated an injection system, but a fuel soluble compound was eventually developed. There was no such cesium injection system on the SR-71's.

Realized the security implications of an injection system. An injection system would mean, "more weight" to the aircraft. Anyone who knows the history of the Blackbird's, know darn well that Kelly Johnson was not going to add weight if he didn't have to. It would also mean that such a system would have to be serviced by maintenance personnel. And that personnel could be exposed to concentrates of the additive.

Adding it to the fuel at the supplier would by-pass anyone having to know about it at all levels. Much higher security for the top secret additive, an additive that would virtually render our most top secret weapon system invisible to enemy detectors. (for all practical purposes)

People should also realize that "compartmentalization" means that once Ed Lovick's job was complete in developing the additive he would no longer be privy to anything about it after that. The same can be said as demonstrated by Dr. Abernethy. Personnel only have authorization to have access to information in which they had a need to know.

It's plain and simple that cesium was responsible for the existence of the Blackbirds, to what extent is the question. I can hardly fathom not using something that worked to protect our highest national security asset, can you?

I was told that all SR-71 program data was containerized, sealed, and coded "not to be released" after normal FOIA time constraints.

I have also corresponded with the Air Force at the highest possible command levels for which they have no access or knowledge of the use of cesium in the SR-71 whatsoever.

If anyone finds any errors or further information on the subject, it would be appreciated.

 

[Orionblamblam]

By the way, did you know that ridicule is part of the dis-information process?

So... how do we know YOU are not part of the dis-information process?

 

[Dark Eagle]

By the way, did you know that ridicule is part of the dis-information process?

So... how do we know YOU are not part of the dis-information process?

Check the the links, tell me if I'm mistaken. That's the only reason I posted it figuring this would be a place where people would be knowledgeable in such a subject.

I am not one to smile at all the BS and go along with the crowd. I don't give a damn who a person is and if they think their $hit doesn't stink, even if they claim to be an so called "investigative journalist". Everyone is on the same level to me, everyone has an opinion for I respect. I do not place people on pedestals.

If I make a post I will say it like I see it. It's just a comment, take it as you wish.

My comments relate to a subject regarding the reason for the existence of the most important aviation "secret project" in the history of the planet.

Show me that I'm making this stuff up, if nobody is interested and you don't want my comments, just tell me to f-off and I will stay off the site. It's not that big of a deal.

If all that some people can come up with is ridicule and not a productive comment then it's just a waste of time and shows their ignorance anyway.

I'm sure it's easy enough to censor or block me. There are other sites out their who appreciate my free advertisement and donations.

 

[Orionblamblam]

By the way, did you know that ridicule is part of the dis-information process?

So... how do we know YOU are not part of the dis-information process?

Check the the links, tell me if I'm mistaken.

That's just what I'd expect THEM to say.

My comments relate to a subject regarding the reason for the existence of the most important aviation "secret project" in the history of the planet.

Silverplate??? Not really sure how cesium use on the SR-71 is relevant to *that.*

Show me that I'm making this stuff up, if nobody is interested and you don't want my comments, just tell me to f-off and I will stay off the site. It's not that big of a deal.

If all that some people can come up with is ridicule and not a productive comment then it's just a waste of time and shows their ignorance anyway.

I hear that a lot from Truthers and Creationists. Imagine how startlingly effective it is coming from them.

As for cesium: you've claimed it has been used as a fuel additive. OK, maybe. You've also claimed that it has been of substantial detriment to human health. For non-radioactive cesium, what are the levels required to pose a statistically significant health hazard? And how do you calculate that an aircraft flying at Mach 3 and 90,000 feet up is going to spread sufficient concentrations of the stuff to affect which populations?

 

[Dark Eagle]

I don't know what "silverplate" refers to.

But you have some constructive comments-

I am not making this up, this is information released in books, and official documents.

Did you see the links? they are PDF files, you may have to download them.

The references to cesium are supplied by the CIA FOIA Document "The history of the OXCART Program".

The references to cesium being a dangerous material can be found on the CDC (Center for Disease Control) web site.

If you know anything about the Blackbird's you would know that they were designed without fuel tank bladders. They leaked profusely. Anyone working on them would be soaked with fuel on a daily basis.

The fuel also leaked into the ground and into waterways at operating locations for nearly 25 years. By figuring how much fuel they used times the number of hours flown you can see at least 20 Billion pounds were used. That is not counting the KC-135Q tanker fleet.

The CDC bases it exposure risk on how a material is used. If they do not know how it was being used (because it was top secret) then their data is flawed.

Calculating exposure risk, cause and effect, is the requirement of the end user and the CDC.

Believe it not it was common practice to give waste JP-7 jet fuel to the locals for use in home heaters at the detachments.

There is substantial information here for anyone with a little investigative skills to find on their own. See what what you can find and let me know.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I don't know what "silverplate" refers to.

Then... how can you know what the most important "secret project" in aviation history was??? It's not like Silverplate is obscure or unGoogleable.

The references to cesium being a dangerous material can be found on the CDC (Center for Disease Control) web site.

*Everything* is dangerous. The important factor is actual exposure levels. Have you quantified them?

If you know anything about the Blackbird's you would know that they were designed without fuel tank bladders. They leaked profusely. Anyone working on them would be soaked with fuel on a daily basis.

I suppose so. But how's that relevant to the cesium question? Assuming, again, that they used a cesium additive... *why* would they use the cesium fuel for takeoff? Hardly need to make the thing radar invisible over the home-base runway when anyone with eyes can simply see it, and anyone with ears can hear it. If a cesium-additive-fuel was used... it'd be what was delivered to the SR-71 from the tanker plane at altitude.

Calculating exposure risk, cause and effect, is the requirement of the end user and the CDC.

So you're admitting to having no quantifiable data whatsoever. Do you even know what the ratio of cesium/JP7 would need to be? How do you know that the whole missions worth would not fit within a high pressure cannister the size of a Gatorade bottle, and one was simply plugged into an engine nacelle before each flight and activated by flipping a switch in the cockpit?

20 billion pounds of JP7 tells you *nothing* about how much cesium fuel could have been used if you have no idea what the ratio was.

Believe it not it was common practice to give waste JP-7 jet fuel to the locals for use in home heaters at the detachments.

Thus defeating the arguement that a Sooper Sekrit Fuel Additive was used. Doncha think the Russkies might've been able to get a couple samples of that home heater fuel? Doncha think the USAF and CIA were well aware that jet fuel they were doling out to locals could be analyzed by the Russians?

Hell, where are the environmental studies showing mysterious cesium blooms around SR-71 bases or along SR-71 flight paths?

Feh.

 

[quellish]

Further lab testing was done at the P&W Willagoos turbine labs in East Hartford Connecticut, The results of the tests all indicated that good shielding would require at least 80% afterburner operation under cruising conditions (NB, HELP REQUIRED, is 80% afterburner a realistic cruising condition for the A-12?) Willagoos tests had used additives at 25% to 50% in fuel (by weight?) of Sodium, Potassium or Caesium. One effective Caesium additive was 50% Caesium Valerate but was not fuel soluble so had the be injected into the exhaust stream just aft of the nozzles (e.g. 50% Caesium Valerate by weight in fuel? for the sake of argument this implies Caesium Valerate additive had to be injected into the exhaust at the same rate as the engine consumed jet fuel. Obviously the additive would be used at a huge rate and at best this plasma shielding could only be sustained for a short period of time unless the additive tank was planned to be comparable in size to the fuel tank!)

I think what he is referring to there is not 30% additive in fuel, but rather the molar concentration of the alkali metal in salt. One quarter to one half molar of alkali metal to dialkyl phosphite would be about right. So I think he means 0.3 molar where he says 30%, etc.

When cesium is burned it also produces a vivid blue-purple flame, by the same process that makes it desirable for ionizing the exhaust stream:

http://webmineral.com/help/FlameTest.shtml
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37388341@N00/8635549/in/set-214153

This one refers to Dr. Robert Abernethy from Pratt & Whitney. On the second page he tells his experience with the details on poison fuels with the J-58. (So they did know they were working with poison compounds)

The actual quote:
"In late 1957 PW had two top secret, black, engine projects that were to use poison fuels! Not a good idea in the middle of Connecticut...how about the middle of the Everglades??"

That predates OXCART work with additives, and at that time P&W was working with boron fuels.

Much higher security for the top secret additive, an additive that would virtually render our most top secret weapon system invisible to enemy detectors. (for all practical purposes)

That's actually not true at all. The very same set of studies that created the recommended signature for OXCART (Mach 3, 90k', RCS of X) also pointed out that even with the recommended signature, OXCART would be visible within a few years. So the additive, by the time it was tested, was already somewhat obsolete. The signature reduction it offered did not make it significantly less detectable by the radar systems deployed at that time. This was even before PALLADIUM began to show fruit.

There is no reason to believe that the use of the additive ever made it beyond testing on the A-12.

But that is all off topic. Off topic is ok for The Bar, but the same discussion of fuel additives has hijacked a number of other threads. I would suggest creating a dedicated thread in the appropriate place for this discussion.

Back on topic:
There was actually not that much about Area 51 in the book. There were large sections on tests, etc. conducted elsewhere in Nevada that had little or nothing to do with Area 51.

 

[quellish]

Peter Merlin has actually put up a list of factual errors in the book that itself should be interesting reading for SPF members:
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/forum/messages/37016.html

 

[Orionblamblam]

One effective Caesium additive was 50% Caesium Valerate but was not fuel soluble so had the be injected into the exhaust stream just aft of the nozzles

I hadn't caught that. So... what kind of fuel does Cesium Valerate make? Metal salts by their very nature tend to make more or less *inert* additives. So adding a salt to the fuel at percentages like this would drive engine performance through the *floor.*

Adding the metal salt directly to the fuel would have the effect of coating the aft bits of the engine - turbine blades, afterburner (including afterburner fuel injectors), etc - with molten and solidified metal salts. What could *possibly* go wrong?

 

[quellish]

I hadn't caught that. So... what kind of fuel does Cesium Valerate make? Metal salts by their very nature tend to make more or less *inert* additives. So adding a salt to the fuel at percentages like this would drive engine performance through the *floor.*

That's correct, most of the references for practical uses for these salts is for *fire proofing plastics*.

 

[Stargazer]

Though I'm in no position to say anything new or constructive to add here regarding caesium, JP-7 or all that's been discussed here, I'm disappointed with the derisive and at times aggressive reactions to Dark Eagle's post. So far he has tried to be informative and has not been cross with anyone. As Paul rightly said earlier on, whatever others think of him, "Doesn't mean we can't discuss (and potentially refute) the ideas presented."

I believe Orionblamblam is so used to encountering UFOmaniacs and religious freaks that he is exceedingly wary of whoever purports a story that is not official. The fact that someone cannot produce evidence doesn't make them a liar. Similarly, the fact that he doesn't know the codenames applied to a certain program doesn't mean that he never worked on it at a certain level of the work chain. The best way to keep a program secret it to let each cog of the machine know as little about what the others do as possible.

It's not so hard to say "maybe", sometimes... Until true evidence surfaces, the testimony of someone who worked on the program is good enough for me to give reasonable credence to the story. Now of course one can always argue: how do we know that he DID work on the program and is not a faker. To this I have no answer, but I guess Dark Eagle probably has evidence he could produce that he was working there at the time.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I believe Orionblamblam is so used to encountering UFOmaniacs and religious freaks that he is exceedingly wary of whoever purports a story that is not official.

Not so much that; I encounter "unofficial" stories all the time. It's wild & extravagant claims ("secret government agencies poisoning the planet") coupled with *immediately* leaping to stock-standard Conspiracy Nut Tropes (such as "disinformation" and such) that raise my hackles.

The fact that someone cannot produce evidence doesn't make them a liar.

No, but it makes their claims "claims," not "facts."

Similarly, the fact that he doesn't know the codenames applied to a certain program doesn't mean that he never worked on it at a certain level of the work chain.

If you claim something is "the most important aviation "secret project" in the history of the planet," it'd be good to have an idea what might actually be a rather more important one.


I have no idea if cesium was added to the combustion process to reduce radar signiture. The physics would suggest it's a possibility, and hints dropped here and there suggest that it has been studied and *perhaps* applied. But in order to make the claim that the SR-71 program "poisoned the planet," a *whole* bunch of questions would need to be answered. Such as whether or not cesium actually was used, and how much. Without those two questions be firmly and definitively and uncontrovertible answered, you cannot *honestly* make the claim.

 

[shockonlip]

Further lab testing was done at the P&W Willagoos turbine labs in East Hartford Connecticut, ...

Willagoos tests had used additives at 25% to 50% in fuel (by weight?) of Sodium, Potassium or Caesium.
...

I think what he is referring to there is not 30% additive in fuel, but rather the molar concentration of the alkali metal in salt.

Hey, I can help here from a recent response from Mr. Lovick himself !

I can confirm what Quellish is saying, namely that Mr. Lovick intended 30% as the percentage of
Cesium in the ionizing additive and not as the percentage of fuel.

Reading Ed's description in "Radar Man" (an excellent read by the way), this was driving me crazy
as well because it would imply a large amount of additive. So I asked Mr. Lovick.

Quoting Ed's response here:
"The cesium was 30% of the ionizing additive."

And then another bonus from Ed:
"The ionizing additive was a very small percentage of the fuel."

Thanks Ed!

 

[Orionblamblam]

"The cesium was 30% of the ionizing additive."
"The ionizing additive was a very small percentage of the fuel."

Good info, and very likely as precise as is going to be made public.

 

[Dark Eagle]

I don't know what "silverplate" refers to.

Then... how can you know what the most important "secret project" in aviation history was??? It's not like Silverplate is obscure or unGoogleable.

~~~~~~~~~~As stated in the speech given by the CIA director in 20007.

The references to cesium being a dangerous material can be found on the CDC (Center for Disease Control) web site.

*Everything* is dangerous. The important factor is actual exposure levels. Have you quantified them?

~~~~~~~~~~That is the responsibility of the END USER. The PEL's would be flawed in the MSDS if the components were kept secret from the agencies who establish those levels.

If you know anything about the Blackbird's you would know that they were designed without fuel tank bladders. They leaked profusely. Anyone working on them would be soaked with fuel on a daily basis.

I suppose so. But how's that relevant to the cesium question? Assuming, again, that they used a cesium additive... *why* would they use the cesium fuel for takeoff? Hardly need to make the thing radar invisible over the home-base runway when anyone with eyes can simply see it, and anyone with ears can hear it. If a cesium-additive-fuel was used... it'd be what was delivered to the SR-71 from the tanker plane at altitude.

~~~~~~~~~~It's use was top secret, it's easily hidden in the fuel. It would not be kept secret if there were an injection system. There were no separate fuel sources between tankers and the Blackbirds. Q model tankers could burn JP-7 as well.

Calculating exposure risk, cause and effect, is the requirement of the end user and the CDC.

So you're admitting to having no quantifiable data whatsoever. Do you even know what the ratio of cesium/JP7 would need to be? How do you know that the whole missions worth would not fit within a high pressure cannister the size of a Gatorade bottle, and one was simply plugged into an engine nacelle before each flight and activated by flipping a switch in the cockpit?

20 billion pounds of JP7 tells you *nothing* about how much cesium fuel could have been used if you have no idea what the ratio was.

~~~~~~~~~~~Correct! The only information needed for suspicion of hazardous materials or toxic exposures is the official documents writen by Kelly Johnson himself stating that "It was eventually a basic part of our cross section reduction methods" as well as the details provided in Ed Lovick's book "Radar Man".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~Now, remember that Permissible Exposure Limits and Time Weighted Averages are governed by the CDC who bases this data on how people come in contact with it. They did not know that it was used in jet fuel. So any information regarding their studies are flawed to begin with.

Believe it not it was common practice to give waste JP-7 jet fuel to the locals for use in home heaters at the detachments.

Thus defeating the arguement that a Sooper Sekrit Fuel Additive was used. Doncha think the Russkies might've been able to get a couple samples of that home heater fuel? Doncha think the USAF and CIA were well aware that jet fuel they were doling out to locals could be analyzed by the Russians?

Hell, where are the environmental studies showing mysterious cesium blooms around SR-71 bases or along SR-71 flight paths?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Compartmentalization" means only persons that have a need to know will know about it. In this case, the only persons who would have a need to know would be the fuel supplier. The Air Force, for all practical purposes had no need to know at operational levels. They had no reason to test for it. Without any knowledge of the material there would be no need for Bio Environmental Engineering to make base line studies.

"Shockonlip" is correct in stating the additive was very small in quantity. But, the missing information is to what extent was it used? I can believe that Mr. Lovick did not have a need to know of it's use during the operational program. His job was to invent it. Once they knew it worked he would not have to know any details of it's use after that.

It all comes down to the Right to Know laws that were established in 1985. The workers had a right to know if they were being exposed to a hazardous material and to be protected from it. These laws were established to protect workers as well as anyone that could unknowingly cross contaminate others like family members and children.

When Kelly Johnson states in 1968 that "It was eventually a basic part of our cross section reduction methods", that is a pretty direct statement. Since myself and many of my coworkers were greatly exposed to this fuel, and the fact that many of them have become sick and died over the years, I need at least a statement of similar gravity telling me that it was not a basic part of our cross section reduction method. Especially when the Air Force states that they have no knowledge of it's use whatsoever.

As much as I would love to believe the material was not used, basing that information on recommended RCS's at that time is not consoling to the people who are sick and have a right to know by law.

I also find it strange that if the material was not used then why does the AF not publish clarification to that fact.

History should teach us that a culture of secret toxic exposures and the use of human guinea pigs is medieval and should stop.

Thanks for all the positive input!!!

Feh.

 

[Mat Parry]

Hey, I can help here from a recent response from Mr. Lovick himself !

I can confirm what Quellish is saying, namely that Mr. Lovick intended 30% as the percentage of
Cesium in the ionizing additive and not as the percentage of fuel.

Reading Ed's description in "Radar Man" (an excellent read by the way), this was driving me crazy
as well because it would imply a large amount of additive. So I asked Mr. Lovick.

Quoting Ed's response here:
"The cesium was 30% of the ionizing additive."

And then another bonus from Ed:
"The ionizing additive was a very small percentage of the fuel."

Thanks Ed!

I'm in awe, very happy to be proved hopelessly wrong by a great man.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I don't know what "silverplate" refers to.

Then... how can you know what the most important "secret project" in aviation history was??? It's not like Silverplate is obscure or unGoogleable.

~~~~~~~~~~As stated in the speech given by the CIA director in 20007.

Good to know that the CIA will still be around in 18,000 years, but it still doesn't answer the question. How can you know what the most important "secret project" was if you don't know what the most important "secret project" was?

20 billion pounds of JP7 tells you *nothing* about how much cesium fuel could have been used if you have no idea what the ratio was.

~~~~~~~~~~~Correct! The only information needed for suspicion of hazardous materials or toxic exposures is the official documents writen by Kelly Johnson himself stating that "It was eventually a basic part of our cross section reduction methods" as well as the details provided in Ed Lovick's book "Radar Man".

OK. So in the forty or so years that the SR-71 was in operation, they spread a total of 2.2 grams of cesium across the entire planet. Correct? If my number is wrong... provide a better one, with sources.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Compartmentalization" means only persons that have a need to know will know about it.

And thus the CDC and the EPA would know about it. If there was a statistically valid increase in cesium poisoning in the US, THOSE would be the departments to notice.

When Kelly Johnson states in 1968 that "It was eventually a basic part of our cross section reduction methods", that is a pretty direct statement. Since myself and many of my coworkers were greatly exposed to this fuel, and the fact that many of them have become sick and died over the years, I need at least a statement of similar gravity telling me that it was not a basic part of our cross section reduction method.

Whoa. You're saying that over a period of *years,* people surrounded on a daily basis with solvents and hydrocarbons (burned and unburned) get sick and die? What a shocking revelation! I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to see some official documentation showing that these people died not of some obscure causes like car wrecks, heart disease, diabetes, smoking related illnesses or other wacky, unlikely causes, but the obvious cause of cesium poisoning.

I also find it strange that if the material was not used then why does the AF not publish clarification to that fact.

True, true! I've also not seen the USAF deny that they use plutonium additives, either. Where is the denial that the USAF operates hypersonic stealth blimps equipped with antigravity time machines powered by rubbing magic kittens against clones of Hillary Clinton wearing latex gimp suits???

History should teach us that a culture of secret toxic exposures and the use of human guinea pigs is medieval and should stop.

History also teaches us that people believe what they want to believe, especially when it comes to sickness and death. See: Jenny McCarthy, MD.

Now, in all seriousness: "I know people who got sick and died" is all very sad, but it's also entirely *natural.* And it says precisely diddly-squat about what they died *of.* I can assure you that the longer you live, the more people will keel over around you. And I'm reasonably certain that you, too, will one day wake up at room temperature (thanks to the magic of denial, I'm gonna live forever). It's something people have a habit of doing. People don't need super secret cesium fuels to get sick and croak. Just being surrounded by JP-7 vapors for the better part of a career will fill your lungs full of fantastic opportunities for cancer.

 

[sublight]

Hey hey hey, don't start using the phrase "stealth blimp" in vain. That's just wrong man. For all we know, it could be Cesium free....

 

[Byeman]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~Now, remember that Permissible Exposure Limits and Time Weighted Averages are governed by the CDC who bases this data on how people come in contact with it. They did not know that it was used in jet fuel. So any information regarding their studies are flawed to begin with.

Wrong. The delivery method is not important to Permissible Exposure Limits and Time Weighted Average because those number only deal with the amount of cesium.