Viking ironclads / barða, járnbarða, járnbarði (iron barde)

[blockhaj]

This post might get removed but i couldn't find any rules against pre-historic ships so why not.

This is a thread dedicated to Viking Age ironclads. Viking military ships, so called longships, were clinker-built made of wood and often as large as possible. A number of Viking Age stories tell of such ships being clad in iron plating. This was not common but appears to not be a foreign concept in the scripts.

The most described Viking ironclad can be found in Old Norse stories retelling the Battle of Svolder, a huge Viking naval battle around 1000 AD (kinda cool battle, look it up). In this battle, a perculiar ship is mentioned, Earl Erik's Járnbarðinn (The Iron Bard). It is described as a barða or járnbarða (iron-bard), indicating a specific type of ship. The saga Fagrskinna says it was the largets ship (of the battle), indicating bigger than the described ship Long Serpent with 34 rowing benches, meaning that Eriks barda might have been 40-50 meters long (compared to the largest longship today of 35 meters).

The saga Heimskringla gives more detail:

Original Old Norse text:​ Eiríkr jarl hafði barða einn geysimikinn, er hann var vanr at hafa í víking;​ þar var skegg á ofanverðu barðinu hváru tveggja;​ en niðr frá járnspǫng þykk ok svá breið sem barðit ok tók alt í sjá ofan.​ ​

Open translation:​ Earl Eirik owned a mighty great barda which he was accustomed to take on his viking expeditions;​ it had beard (assumed to be iron plating) above each of both bards (assumed to be the stems);​ beneath, an iron beam (a ram) protruded, thick and wide as the bard (the stem), which took all at sea above.​ ​

These Old Norse texts are all poetically written (initially based on so called Scaldic Poetry), meaning that objects, terms and the like, often get described using other words as per poetry. No one really knows what barda and bard (border/edge) actually mean in this story. Old Norse "bard" is an extrememy broad term, found today in for example the name Svalbard (Cold Edge) and halberd (from bard meaning axe). With that said, i think i have found a runestone carving which fits in with this described ship, what is believed to be Naglfar on the Tullstorp Runestone.

This ship carving differs greatly from other ship carvings, most notably by having protruding stems like the front of a galley or trireme, but also, above it, some type of coverig along the strakes at each end of the ship. Lets assume bard in the story simply refers to edge, as per these angular protruding stems, and beard referring to these strake covers, then the description sort of make sense (although the carving lacks a visible ram). Barda, a derivation of bard, makes sense as a name for this type of ship, as it features characteristic "edges". Its also a possibility that the entire protrusion in the carving might actually be the "iron beam" itself (although maybe slightly exaggerated), with Old Norse "spǫng" actually meaning protrusion here, as in: "a beneath iron protrusion, thick (tall) and wide as the bard (the stem). Although, now when i think about it, spǫng doesnt really set well with that meaning.

Some other connections of note, Naglfar is supposed to be a ginormous combat ship for the battle at the end of the world, so a carving of it makes sense to be a monstrous ironclad combat ship. Here is a link for those who want more details on why its supposedly Naglfar being depicted on the stone: https://k-blogg.se/2016/10/02/nar-fenrir-fick-farg/

Addition: 2023-12-20
Here is a snippet from Þorsteins saga Víkingssonar:

Original Old Norse text:​ Hálfdán átti dreka stóran, ok var hann kallaðr Járnbarði, hann var allr járni varðr fyrir ofan sjó, borðhár ok hinn bezti gripr​ ​

Open translation:​ Halvdan had a big dragon (a longship), and which he called Járnbarði (The Iron Barde), he was all iron wrapped afore above sea, freeboard-high and the best possession​

Addition: 2023-12-25
Here is a snippet from Óláfs saga Tryggvasonar

Original Old Norse text: (note the erronous spelling in my copy)​ Oc siðan býsc Eríkr jarl med lið sitt; hann hafði þat skip er callat var Jarnbarðiɴ. þat var mikit skip oc akaflega harðgert. stafniɴ huorr tueggi þakiðr með miklu iarni. oc huossum eggia broddum​ ​

Original Old Norse text:​ And then came Earl Erik with his lead; he had that ship which was called The Iron Barde. It was a large ship and very heavily covered (protected). The stem was twofold (on both sides) covered with much iron. and sharp edged spikes​ ​

Same ship type found on the Ledberg stone of the same period (ca 1000 AD).

 

[Dilandu]

Well, the plating of warships with metal wasn't exactly unknown in pre-industrial times. It was just costly and not very practical. Considering the viking ship in question, I suppose that it's "armor" was most likely placed above the boards to protect the crew (especially rowers) from enemy arrows. The ship is described as having a ram, so it presumably attacked head-on and therefore installing some kind of bow protection would be practical.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Cladding a boat in iron would have been *fabulously* expensive at the time, and not really necessary to protect the crew from arrows... wood will do that adequately well, and Norse boats often used the crews shields anyway. If this was actually done, it was much more likely to be a "look at me, I'm richer'n Odin" sort of thing.

The maintenance would have been *atrocious.*

 

[zen]

Was it really armoured with metal?
Iron bard might reference something else. Possibly something 'as hard as iron', which some woods can be.

Could just reference the strength of the structure.

And how thick was the metal?
Could just be thin sheet over wood. More for the look than practical. But helps resist fire better.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Was it really armoured with metal?
Iron bard might reference something else.

Old Norse was *fantastic* for producing a vast number of kennings that, without context, are often difficult to impossible to discern just what the hell they were. Imagine if we found some ancient text that referenced a warning about a "Trojan Horse," but "The Iliad" had been lost and forgotten millenia ago. It's always best to take a kenning like this with a grain of salt. Maybe it meant iron sheet armor. maybe it meant chain mail armor. Maybe it meant the wood was painted gray so it looked like armor. Maybe it was a magic spell. Maybe it was just wet wool blankets, good for stopping arrows *and* fire. Maybe "Iron Bard" was some particular badass in the crew, or maybe it was a designated crew position. Shrug.

 

[Hood]

It could simply be a decorative feature, although it would quickly rust and be a maintenance nightmare. Another thought is that it might be for ramming attacks. I'm not sure to what extent, if any, the Vikings made of ramming tactics. It would imply ship Vs ship actions rather than the usual transport of raiding parties. I guess iron plating at both ends would be necessary for weight distribution and trimming. And judging by the image, if you ram an enemy and knacker the front end, you've got another at at the stern too, which when the rowers turn around becomes a new ramming bow.

Of course I'm sure that the Vikings could have built an all-wooden ram of sufficient strength, but they built their ships lightly with flexibility to ride out rough seas. Using an iron plating covering might have been one way to preserve a generally flexible wooden structure throughout the ship but with reinforcement were it was needed.

 

[Dilandu]

Maybe it meant iron sheet armor. maybe it meant chain mail armor. Maybe it meant the wood was painted gray so it looked like armor. Maybe it was a magic spell. Maybe it was just wet wool blankets, good for stopping arrows *and* fire. Maybe "Iron Bard" was some particular badass in the crew, or maybe it was a designated crew position. Shrug.

Maybe it was just a set of warrior's shields placed on the bow to protect rowers?

 

[Dilandu]

I'm not sure to what extent, if any, the Vikings made of ramming tactics

As far as I know, it wasn't common. But this ship was supposed to be a flagship, and relatively large one, so it make sence that it was build for additional combat capabilities.

 

[TinWing]

This post might get removed but i couldn't find any rules against pre-historic ships so why not.

This is a thread dedicated to Viking Age ironclads. Viking military ships, so called longships, were clinker-built made of wood and often as large as possible. A number of Viking Age stories tell of such ships being clad in iron plating. This was not common but appears to not be a foreign concept in the scripts.

The most described Viking ironclad can be found in Old Norse stories retelling the Battle of Svolder, a huge Viking naval battle around 1000 AD (kinda cool battle, look it up). In this battle, a perculiar ship is mentioned, Earl Erik's Járnbarðinn (The Iron Bard). It is described as a barða or járnbarða (iron-bard), indicating a specific type of ship. The saga Fagrskinna says it was the largets ship (of the battle), indicating bigger than the described ship Long Serpent with 34 rowing benches, meaning that Eriks barda might have been 40-50 meters long (compared to the largest longship today of 35 meters).

The saga Heimskringla gives more detail:

Original Old Norse text:​ Eiríkr jarl hafði barða einn geysimikinn, er hann var vanr at hafa í víking;​ þar var skegg á ofanverðu barðinu hváru tveggja;​ en niðr frá járnspǫng þykk ok svá breið sem barðit ok tók alt í sjá ofan.​ ​

Open translation:​ Earl Eirik owned a mighty great barda which he was accustomed to take on his viking expeditions;​ it had beard (assumed to be iron plating) above each of both bards (assumed to be the stems);​ beneath, an iron beam (a ram) protruded, thick and wide as the bard (the stem), which took all at sea above.​ ​

These Old Norse texts are all poetically written (initially based on so called Scaldic Poetry), meaning that objects, terms and the like, often get described using other words as per poetry. No one really knows what barda and bard (border/edge) actually mean in this story. Old Norse "bard" is an extrememy broad term, found today in for example the name Svalbard (Cold Edge) or halberd (from bard meaning axe). With that said, i think i have found a runestone carving which fits in with this described ship, what is believed to be Naglfar on the Tullstorp Runestone.
View attachment 714408View attachment 714407
This ship carving differs greatly from other ship carvings, most notably by having protruding stems like the front of a galley or trireme, but also, above it, some type of coverig along the strakes at each end of the ship. Lets assume bard in the story simply refers to edge, as per these angular protruding stems, and beard referring to these strake covers, then the description sort of make sense (although the carving lacks a visible ram). Barda, a derivation of bard, makes sense as a name for this type of ship, as it features characteristic "edges". Its also a possibility that the entire protrusion in the carving might actually be the "iron beam" itself (although maybe slightly exaggerated), with Old Norse "spǫng" actually meaning protrusion here, as in: "a beneath iron protrusion, thick (tall) and wide as the bard (the stem). Although, now when i think about it, spǫng doesnt really set well with that meaning.

Some other connections of note, Naglfar is supposed to be a ginormous combat ship for the battle at the end of the world, so a carving of it makes sense to be a monstrous ironclad combat ship. Here is a link for those who want more details on why its supposedly Naglfar being depicted on the stone: https://k-blogg.se/2016/10/02/nar-fenrir-fick-farg/

My interpretation:

Earl Eirik owned a larger than normal than normal longship (seating as many as 136 rowers) that was only useful for occasional warfare;
it had had a “beard”, a temporary curtain, to protect a handful of archers at the bow, above each of both bards (presumably rails carrying temporarily mounted, iron bound wooden shields, ),
beneath the stem post, a small beam, possible bound in thin iron bands, protruded, definitely above the waterline and possible above the highest amidships plank of the smaller enemy ships. It was definitely not a “ram” in the sense of classical Mediterranean rowing galleys. The Earl could probably afford to outfit his personal ship with thin bands of iron around the bow, which was remarkable for the time. The shields mounted at the bow might have involved more iron around the rim than normal because they weren’t meant for hand use. A hanging curtain of wool felt, leather hides or even small lengths of chain mail would have offered protection to archers from the weak bows of the opposing fleet.

 

[HoHun]

Hi,

The most described Viking ironclad can be found in Old Norse stories retelling the Battle of Svolder, a huge Viking naval battle around 1000 AD (kinda cool battle, look it up). In this battle, a perculiar ship is mentioned, Earl Erik's Járnbarðinn (The Iron Bard). It is described as a barða or járnbarða (iron-bard), indicating a specific type of ship. The saga Fagrskinna says it was the largets ship (of the battle), indicating bigger than the described ship Long Serpent with 34 rowing benches, meaning that Eriks barda might have been 40-50 meters long (compared to the largest longship today of 35 meters).

Cool stuff, quite fascinating!

I'm a bit skeptical regarding the use of iron armour, as around 1000 AD manfacture of iron plate seems not even to have been used for personal armour yet. I'm also not sure what kind of threat iron armour would have been necessary against.

However, we do actually have a historic example of the poetic use of the term "iron" to describe a wooden ship ... USS Constitution's nickname "Old Ironsides" referred to the strength of her hull, which resisted enemy cannon balls in one famous encounter. This strength was actually owed to its design and construction, so I can well imagine a Norse ship of especially strong construction being associated with the term "iron" as well.

The last sentence of the Old Norse quote you provided would probably benefit from a closer look, as I feel it might have lost something in the translation to English.

With regard to possible interpretations, if one looks at naval warfare in the Baltic Sea, the development would later result in high-boarded ship with castle-like fighting platforms on the bow and the stern. Maybe that's a feature of Járnbarðinn too? The depiction on the rune stone DR371 could be interpreted as showing bow and stern having an extra plank height over the rest of the hull.

Just brain-storming here, I could easily be wrong in everything I wrote!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[HoHun]

Hi,

View attachment 714407

What might be an extra plank is visible above the areas you have shaded red. The depiction of the stern is a bit less ambiguous in showing it's actually separate from the pattern on the lower hull, which is why I think it might be indicating the planks.

It would need some explanation why there are no planks shown on the full length of the hull, of course.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[iverson]

"This ship carving differs greatly from other ship carvings, most notably by having protruding stems like the front of a galley or trireme,"

The image on the stone might just depict a Byzantine or Roman warship. Norsemen traded extensively with Byzantium via the rivers of Eastern Europe and many served as mercenaries and bodyguards. So such vessels would be familiar, both from life and from depictions on monuments. Since Naglfar ("Nail Farer") was supposed to be a ship from Hel made of the finger- and toe-nails of the dead, something more exotic than a Norse warship might seem attractive to the artist.

The artist also might not have seen a longship. They were not common, being highly specialized weapon systems with no peacetime, commercial value. Viking-era commercial vessels were much more generally useful. The latter could carry useful loads of trading goods, livestock, or loot while still making serviceable raiding craft. They had longer practical range, because they were more sea-worthy, drier, and more habitable. They were also commodities in their own right. A trader could build a ship in Norway, sail to Poland, build two or three more, load them all with timber, amber, furs, and pine tar, then sail down the river to Byzantium and sell cargo and ships for premium prices. So the artist might know longships were different without knowing exactly how.

Like others, I am skeptical of the value or practicality of iron armor on a longship. As far as I understand the matter, the advantage of the longship design was its flexibility, light weight, and ability to carry a large complement of fighter/rowers. A large longship could flex enough to ride over the crests of waves, drew little water for its size, and could be beached. Its length made maximum use of its crew's fighting power once the terminal, boarding and hand-to-hand combat started. Iron armor would add stiffmess and weight, eliminating the type's key advantages. I doubt that armor would provide any additional protection. Remember that ships were not armored with iron and steel until the late 19th century, when shell weights, shell velocities, and high-explosive fillings finally became too much for wooden construction. Until then, navies just used thicker and harder woods.

The 19th century was also when iron and steel could be produced in the quantities required, using the coal-fired puddling process (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddling_(metallurgy)) and the coke-fired Bessemer process (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer_process) respectively. Until then a smith the large number of fighters had to make iron by hammering on the output of a wood-fired bloomery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery). It took a lot of ore, wood, effort, and time to make even a small amount of wrought iron or steel.

I am also sceptical that a ram would have been of any use in Viking warfare. A longship would not be strong enough to support the loads. A heavily reinforced ship with a ram (armored or not) would not be able to catch faster longships or maneuver into ramming position. Instead, the longships would ride along its beam, shooting arrows until fouled oars and closing range broaught about boarding and the end game.

Sceptical though I am, thanks for bringing up a great discussion topic. Wondering why the past was not different from what it was helps us understand why things actually were the way they were.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Remember that ships were not armored with iron and steel until the late 19th century, when shell weights, shell velocities, and high-explosive fillings finally became too much for wooden construction. Until then, navies just used thicker and harder woods.

Arrows and spears are adequately stopped with wood. Leather with work well enough. While there were worse projectile weapons, such as ballistas and trebuchets hurling boulders and big-ass darts, a Norse boat was vanishingly unlikely to come across such a thing at sea.

While Vikings with firearms is a fun thing to imagine, there were a few hundred years gap. And you need sizable gunpowder weapons before iron armor on sea vessels starts making any sense.

I am also sceptical that a ram would have been of any use in Viking warfare. A longship would not be strong enough to support the loads.

Indeed. Longships were *flexible.* Putting a ram on such would be somewhat like putting a ram on an inflatable boat... your own vessel will deform, taking a lot of the destructive energy with it.

 

[blockhaj]

Was it really armoured with metal?
Iron bard might reference something else. Possibly something 'as hard as iron', which some woods can be.

Could just reference the strength of the structure.

Specifications does not really exist in any Old Norse scripts i am aware of, however, one or two does mentions ships clad with iron.

Despite this, i have not been able to find these specific sections when looking recently. From memory it says something along the lines of: "this person's ship was such covered in iron plating". However, it is definitely possible that iron here refers to iron-oak or something along those lines.

And how thick was the metal?
Could just be thin sheet over wood. More for the look than practical. But helps resist fire better.

Metal was most likely not thicker than a couple millimeters based on cost, weight and production. If akin to the stone carving above then armour was placed at each end of the ship, which makes sense since it was a rammer.

 

[blockhaj]

My interpretation:

Earl Eirik owned a larger than normal than normal longship (seating as many as 136 rowers) that was only useful for occasional warfare;
it had had a “beard”, a temporary curtain, to protect a handful of archers at the bow, above each of both bards (presumably rails carrying temporarily mounted, iron bound wooden shields, ),
beneath the stem post, a small beam, possible bound in thin iron bands, protruded, definitely above the waterline and possible above the highest amidships plank of the smaller enemy ships. It was definitely not a “ram” in the sense of classical Mediterranean rowing galleys. The Earl could probably afford to outfit his personal ship with thin bands of iron around the bow, which was remarkable for the time. The shields mounted at the bow might have involved more iron around the rim than normal because they weren’t meant for hand use. A hanging curtain of wool felt, leather hides or even small lengths of chain mail would have offered protection to archers from the weak bows of the opposing fleet.

It is described as a rammer in the stories. The allied fleet took the front while Eriks bardi flanked from the right and rammed into each enemy ship in succession. It is unclear if ships were sunk or just damaged, however since he took out so many it seems more likely that ships were sunk rather than his ship depleting each enemy ship of men. From memory, only the last ship, Orminn langi (The Long Serpent), is described as being borded, which only happens once most of its crew appears to have been slain at range.

 

[blockhaj]

Hi,



Cool stuff, quite fascinating!

I'm a bit skeptical regarding the use of iron armour, as around 1000 AD manfacture of iron plate seems not even to have been used for personal armour yet. I'm also not sure what kind of threat iron armour would have been necessary against.

Ty. Lots of people are specitical, and rightfully so, thus the creation of this thread.

However, we do actually have a historic example of the poetic use of the term "iron" to describe a wooden ship ... USS Constitution's nickname "Old Ironsides" referred to the strength of her hull, which resisted enemy cannon balls in one famous encounter. This strength was actually owed to its design and construction, so I can well imagine a Norse ship of especially strong construction being associated with the term "iron" as well.

Iron here is used uniquely from other ships, thus indicating a major difference.

The last sentence of the Old Norse quote you provided would probably benefit from a closer look, as I feel it might have lost something in the translation to English.

Direct translation:

en niðr frá járnspǫng þykk ok svá breið sem barðit ok tók alt í sjá ofan.​

a down from iron-beam thick and so wide as the bard and took all in sea over.​

With regard to possible interpretations, if one looks at naval warfare in the Baltic Sea, the development would later result in high-boarded ship with castle-like fighting platforms on the bow and the stern. Maybe that's a feature of Járnbarðinn too? The depiction on the rune stone DR371 could be interpreted as showing bow and stern having an extra plank height over the rest of the hull.

Definitely a possibility, however, there is no material in scripts or archeology for such a thing.

Just brain-storming here, I could easily be wrong in everything I wrote!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[blockhaj]

Hi,

What might be an extra plank is visible above the areas you have shaded red. The depiction of the stern is a bit less ambiguous in showing it's actually separate from the pattern on the lower hull, which is why I think it might be indicating the planks.

More "beard" or upper end ship railing. The latter design ive seen on some smaller ships, were the railing is slightly raised at the ends.

It would need some explanation why there are no planks shown on the full length of the hull, of course.

Carving laziness or design-simplicity. Planks are not very common on ship-carvings.

 

[blockhaj]

The image on the stone might just depict a Byzantine or Roman warship. Norsemen traded extensively with Byzantium via the rivers of Eastern Europe and many served as mercenaries and bodyguards. So such vessels would be familiar, both from life and from depictions on monuments. Since Naglfar ("Nail Farer") was supposed to be a ship from Hel made of the finger- and toe-nails of the dead, something more exotic than a Norse warship might seem attractive to the artist.

I looked into that a while ago and could not find a single depiction of a Byzantine ship looking like that, unless its a hodge-podge by the artist. I find it more likely that viking ship builders copied the design for naval ships intended for ramming.

The artist also might not have seen a longship. They were not common, being highly specialized weapon systems with no peacetime, commercial value.

This is not true. Period stories describe them all the time, often in great numbers and they are a favorite in period depictions. The viking age, as per the name, was not very peacefull, especially in the baltic, with skirmishes and raids happening fairly often. Archeological evidence show warships they were in demand and produced in a great variety and sizes. They were status symbols and boat burrials were common.

Viking-era commercial vessels were much more generally useful. The latter could carry useful loads of trading goods, livestock, or loot while still making serviceable raiding craft. They had longer practical range, because they were more sea-worthy, drier, and more habitable. They were also commodities in their own right. A trader could build a ship in Norway, sail to Poland, build two or three more, load them all with timber, amber, furs, and pine tar, then sail down the river to Byzantium and sell cargo and ships for premium prices. So the artist might know longships were different without knowing exactly how.

As per above, especially with the location of the stone (at the time, possibly only a couple of minutes from the sea due to land rise), it would be extremely unlikely that the carver had never seen a longship.

Like others, I am skeptical of the value or practicality of iron armor on a longship. As far as I understand the matter, the advantage of the longship design was its flexibility, light weight, and ability to carry a large complement of fighter/rowers. A large longship could flex enough to ride over the crests of waves, drew little water for its size, and could be beached. Its length made maximum use of its crew's fighting power once the terminal, boarding and hand-to-hand combat started. Iron armor would add stiffmess and weight, eliminating the type's key advantages. I doubt that armor would provide any additional protection. Remember that ships were not armored with iron and steel until the late 19th century, when shell weights, shell velocities, and high-explosive fillings finally became too much for wooden construction. Until then, navies just used thicker and harder woods.

The 19th century was also when iron and steel could be produced in the quantities required, using the coal-fired puddling process (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddling_(metallurgy)) and the coke-fired Bessemer process (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer_process) respectively. Until then a smith the large number of fighters had to make iron by hammering on the output of a wood-fired bloomery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery). It took a lot of ore, wood, effort, and time to make even a small amount of wrought iron or steel.

I am also sceptical that a ram would have been of any use in Viking warfare. A longship would not be strong enough to support the loads. A heavily reinforced ship with a ram (armored or not) would not be able to catch faster longships or maneuver into ramming position. Instead, the longships would ride along its beam, shooting arrows until fouled oars and closing range broaught about boarding and the end game.

Sceptical though I am, thanks for bringing up a great discussion topic. Wondering why the past was not different from what it was helps us understand why things actually were the way they were.

Ty

 

[blockhaj]

Arrows and spears are adequately stopped with wood. Leather with work well enough. While there were worse projectile weapons, such as ballistas and trebuchets hurling boulders and big-ass darts, a Norse boat was vanishingly unlikely to come across such a thing at sea.

While Vikings with firearms is a fun thing to imagine, there were a few hundred years gap. And you need sizable gunpowder weapons before iron armor on sea vessels starts making any sense.

I believe that the armour might have been to simply protect the ship from glancing blows when ramming if we base its placement on the carving. Viking missiles were more than often just hand thrown rocks. Northmen did serve as mercenaries in both Rome V1 and Rome V2 electric boogaloo (Byzantine empire), however throwers like catapults and the like are not found in any artwork or story. The general naval tactic was very Rome V1-like, with a focus on a short ranged engagement, followed by bording and hand to hand combat.

Indeed. Longships were *flexible.* Putting a ram on such would be somewhat like putting a ram on an inflatable boat... your own vessel will deform, taking a lot of the destructive energy with it.

As this ship is described as its own thing, a "barda", in comparison to the rest, the idea from me is that such ships were specifically produced as rammers (as per the carving). The Battle of Svolder does describe it as a ramming ship.

 

[HoHun]

Hi,

Direct translation:

en niðr frá járnspǫng þykk ok svá breið sem barðit ok tók alt í sjá ofan.​

a down from iron-beam thick and so wide as the bard and took all in sea over.​

Does it mean that the "niðr" (if that's a noun)/"járnspong" was below the waterline and supported all of the structure above?

Definitely a possibility, however, there is no material in scripts or archeology for such a thing.

My thought was, maybe the barda made the first step towards "proper" castles by increasing bow (and stern) height by one plank, creating a higher platform for missile attacks into enemy ships and to get an advantage in boarding.

Ormen Lange reportedly had very high sides "as that of a knarr" too.

Of course, if ramming is historically reported, that might not have been the heart of the matter. On Wikipedia, I noticed that there seem to be different sources on the battle in question, with one of them making Eirik look quite heroic. I wonder if that's the one the description of the ramming attacks is from?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[blockhaj]

Does it mean that the "niðr" (if that's a noun)/"járnspong" was below the waterline and supported all of the structure above?

niðr = adverb, niðr frá (down from) in the text it means below, as in "a below (going) iron-beam", connecting to the previous part talking about the beard, as in the iron beam is below the beard, and it took (as in engaged) everything above the sea surface

My thought was, maybe the barda made the first step towards "proper" castles by increasing bow (and stern) height by one plank, creating a higher platform for missile attacks into enemy ships and to get an advantage in boarding.

Ormen Lange reportedly had very high sides "as that of a knarr" too.

Ormen Lange was sort of like a yacht, very expencive and intended to transport the king of Norway, although still combat capable. Unlike a knarr, it had a head and tail like that of a combat ready longship, a so called dragon ship.

Of course, if ramming is historically reported, that might not have been the heart of the matter. On Wikipedia, I noticed that there seem to be different sources on the battle in question, with one of them making Eirik look quite heroic. I wonder if that's the one the description of the ramming attacks is from?

Havent gone through the full sources (Fagrskinna and Heimskringla seen as most reliable) in a long time since i am not entirely fluent in Old Norse. It sort of says, Erik broke the line apart and took out the first ship in the line with a single or quick attack. But it also mentions them hurling spears, using a shield wall formation, engaging in sword fights etc (just skimmed it). These details, however, were written down 200 years after the battle so these elements seems generic.

 

[HoHun]

Hi everyone,

Not entirely on topic, but maybe interesting anyway with regard to the devolopment of large Scandinavian ships over time ... a recent find of a large ship in a Norwegian burial mound:

Scandinavia’s oldest known ship burial is located in mid-Norway

Dating shows that a ship burial in central Norway is from before the Viking Age. That makes it Scandinavia's oldest known ship burial.

norwegianscitechnews.com

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Nicknick]

Copper as plating material would have made more sense, it can be hammered to very thin plates, looks much better and doen't corrode in seawater (despite getting greenish) and it was later often used to proect hulls against shipworms.

There is no direkt indication that the cladding material was iron, so I assume it was copper.

 

[blockhaj]

Copper as plating material would have made more sense, it can be hammered to very thin plates, looks much better and doen't corrode in seawater (despite getting greenish) and it was later often used to proect hulls against shipworms.​

There is no direkt indication that the cladding material was iron, so I assume it was copper.

Copper is not mentioned in any of the sources, whereas iron (Old Norse: járn) is literally in the name of the ship type and other descriptions.

Here is a snippet from Þorsteins saga Víkingssonar:

Original Old Norse text:​ Hálfdán átti dreka stóran, ok var hann kallaðr Járnbarði, hann var allr járni varðr fyrir ofan sjó, borðhár ok hinn bezti gripr​ ​

Open translation:​ Halvdan had a big dragon (a longship), and which he called Járnbarði (The Iron Barde), he was all iron wrapped afore above sea, freeboard-high and the best possession​

 

[Nicknick]

Here it is just assumed to be Iron:

"Earl Eirik owned a mighty great barda which he was accustomed to take on his viking expeditions;
it had beard (assumed to be iron plating) above each of both bards (assumed to be the stems);
beneath, an iron beam (a ram) protruded, thick and wide as the bard (the stem), which took all at sea above."

 

[Nik]

Could the Nordic contacts with Byzantium include reference to the classic Roman legions' testudo or tortoise formation ?? Though iron hull-plate was beyond that era's metallurgy, several semi-portable ship-shields heavily reinforced with iron might turn a fight...

 

[blockhaj]

Here it is just assumed to be Iron:

"Earl Eirik owned a mighty great barda which he was accustomed to take on his viking expeditions;
it had beard (assumed to be iron plating) above each of both bards (assumed to be the stems);
beneath, an iron beam (a ram) protruded, thick and wide as the bard (the stem), which took all at sea above."

Well, the ship is named The Iron Barde and the beard appears in connection to the barde, thus it is assumed to be iron. Iron covering the "barde" or ship ends also appear in other scripts.

 

[Nicknick]

Well, it makes sense to use iron for the bard, which was obviously inteded to ramming ships, but this doesn't imply that the rest of the ship has to be iron covered.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Ironwood - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nicknick]

The good thing about this thread, no theory can be prooved to be wrong...

 

[Orionblamblam]

The good thing about this thread, no theory can be prooved to be wrong...

Challenge accepted!

The Vikings built the pyramids.
Early Vikings invented Japan as a drunken bar bet.
The fictional land of Wakanda was based on the reality of pre-Christianization Scandinavia, include anti-gravity, power armor and self-sealing stembolts.
Viking era mead was the best beverage in history; among its virtues was that it cured cancer and increased your chances of salvation.
Cats know the truth of the Viking conquests of East Anglia, Vinland, Mars and Zeta Reticuli, but they're not going to tell *you.*

 

[Michel Van]

on Ironwood
Are there some good resources of this wood in Scandinavia?

because the link to Wiki give mostly Australia as growing areas for it
and Vikings in Australia ?!

 

[Orionblamblam]

on Ironwood
Are there some good resources of this wood in Scandinavia?

Járnviðr - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[_Del_]

It is described as a rammer in the stories. The allied fleet took the front while Eriks bardi flanked from the right and rammed into each enemy ship in succession. It is unclear if ships were sunk or just damaged, however since he took out so many it seems more likely that ships were sunk rather than his ship depleting each enemy ship of men. From memory, only the last ship, Orminn langi (The Long Serpent), is described as being borded, which only happens once most of its crew appears to have been slain at range.

The "beam" doesn't necessarily even need to be employed like the classical trireme ram, either. Could have been more like the spur on a contemporary dromon intended to break oars and disable a ship.

You run less risk of becoming stuck in the other ship's hull that way, as well.

Very interesting stuff. Maybe one day they'll find something that gives us a better idea of how to interpret some of the terms involved.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I'm leaning more towards a lot of big iron-bound shields above the waterline for protection than for significant iron plating. Iron is a pain to beat out into large thin plates, it hadn't really been achieved until the 1500s.

 

[_Del_]

Could have been something as simple as bands or plates riveted or nailed as part of the structure in construction.

 

[Hood]

Has there ever been any archaeological evidence to support any theories related to this?

 

[blockhaj]

on Ironwood
Are there some good resources of this wood in Scandinavia?

because the link to Wiki give mostly Australia as growing areas for it
and Vikings in Australia ?!

Iron oak (Old Norse járnek, Swedish järnek) is a common term in Scandinavia for very hard oak or similar.

 

[blockhaj]

Járnviðr - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Phone link lolz

 

[blockhaj]

Has there ever been any archaeological evidence to support any theories related to this?

Beyond the possinle depiction in OP, none that i am aware of. However, many ship graves we have excavated have been plundered even during period times. Majority of ships have also rotted away or been burnt during burrial and all we have are the nails; even then, no reconstruction i know of show anything beyond the normal. It's not impossible, however, that people might have plundered the theoretical iron-plating.

EDIT: also, we have only excavated a small portion of graves and thousands of graves have also been destroyed by farmers over the millennium. Its possible such a ship is still out there waiting to be discovered.