The Decisive Battle at Antivari

[Tzoli]

I've already asked this on the battlecruisers forum but I ask here as well:

All the World's Battlecruisers-The Decisive Battle at Antivari

Historically the Battle of Antivari was a minor battle at the start of WW1 and the first one of the Austro-Hungarian navy though the French Marine Nat

www.tapatalk.com

Historically the Battle of Antivari was a minor battle at the start of WW1 and the first one of the Austro-Hungarian navy though the French Marine Nationale intended it to be much bigger engagement.

Battle of Antivari - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Historically the SMS Zenta an older protected cruiser and the Destroyer SMS Ulan of the Huszár class (Hussar) blockaded the naval town of Antivari today known as Bar at the start of the war. The French admiralty wanted to either blockade the Adriatic at the Otranto Straits or create an opportunity for a decisive naval battle hoping for a quick victory to remove the KuK Kriegsmarine from the War and to gain prestige by winning a major naval battle since the humiliating defeat at Trafalgar some 100 years prior, the latter was chosen.
You can read the battle at the wiki article and at other sources showing the bravery of the captain and crew of the Zenta to hold off the French fleet and allow the destroyer Ulan to escape with minor damage of course a cruiser let that be an older protected cruiser is more important than a destroyer but still, this was a heroic last stand, and might show the attitude of the KuK captains toward confrontation at the start of the war.

The main Austro-Hungarian Navy did not engage the French fleet because they did not know they had arrived and thus the decisive battle the French fleet hoped for did not occur.
BUT WHAT IF??!!
What if the main KuK navy did receive the distress call from Zenta or Ulan and they decide to engage the French Fleet?
How would the battle happen? Who would likely be victorious?

The Combatants:
KuK Kriegsmarine:
3x Viribus Unitis class Dreadnoughts
3x Radetzky class Semi-Dreadnoughts
3x Erzherzog Karl class Pre-Dreadnoughts
3x Habsburg class Pre-Dreadnoughts
3x Monarch class Coastal Battleships

1x Sankt Georg Armoured Cruiser
1x Kaiser Karl VI Armoured Cruiser
1x Kaiserin und Konigin Maria Theresia Armoured Cruiser (refitted in 1910)

1x Novara class Scout Cruiser (SMS Saida)
1x Admiral Spaun class Scout Cruiser
2x Zenta class Protected Cruisers (If we assume the the Zenta did not survive the beginning of the engagement)
2x Kaiser Franz Joseph I class Protected Cruisers (refitted in 1905-06)
1x Tiger Protected Cruiser
2x Panther class Protected Cruisers

3x Tátra class Destroyers
12 Huszár class Destroyers including SMS Ulan (refitted in 1912-13)
9x Older Torpedo Gunboats from Zara to Magnet
Around 79 Torpedo Boats

2x U1 class Submarines
2x U3 class Submarines
3x U5 class Submarines


Marine Nationale:
2x Courbet class Dreadnoughts
5x Danton class Semi-Dreadnoughts
3x Démocratie/Liberté class Pre-Dreadnoughts
2x Republique class Pre-Dreadnoughts

1x Leon Gambetta class Armoured Cruiser

1x Jurien de la Graviére Protected Cruiser

5x Destroyer Squadrons (likely 15-20 ships in total) probably the 450ton types (or a mix of the 800,450 and 300ton types)

Royal Navy:
1x Warrior class Armoured Cruiser
1x Minotaur class Armoured Cruiser

3x Destroyer Divisions of unknown classes but time appropriate:
Acorn, Acheron, Acasta
River, Tribal, Beagle:


I've read that the RN ships and part of the French ships were kept in reserve but could join the battle if deemed necessary.

Extra info:
The Main KUK Forces were located at Pola Naval Base at this time but at the Cattaro Naval Base the 3 Monarch class coastal Battleships were moored.

Help request from our French speaking or French naval enthusiasts:
Can you guys look for the OOB of this battle in the French Forums? How were the French and British ships positioned, stationed? What Destroyers were escorted the battlegroup?

Originally the main KUK FLeet did not sortie after the info received becuase Admiral of the Fleet Anton Haus though that if the A-H fleet could miraculously won the battle over the French the fleet would be damaged or reduced to such an extent that the Italians would imminently declare war on the Empire.

Some relevant parts from Mihály Krámli's book about A-H Battleships and battleship designs:

On 13 August 1914, the senior Entente commander in the Mediterranean, the French vice admiral Augustin Boué de Lapeyrère received word of the French and British declarations of war on Austria-Hungary. He was ordered to sail into the Adriatic immediately with all available French and British forces. Lapeyrère choose the tiny Austro-Hungarian blockading force off the Montenegrin coasts as his first target. Proceeding from the direction of Malta, Lapeyrère’s vastly superior force consisted of fourteen battleships, including two dreadnoughts, succeeded in taking the small and obsolete cruiser Zenta and the destroyer Ulan by surprise on 16 August between Antivari and Cape Menders. Thanks to her greater speed the Ulan managed to escape back to Cattaro, but the much slower cruiser did not have a chance. Fregattenkapitän Paul Pachner, the commander of the Zenta chose the hopeless fight instead of surrender, and the tiny cruiser was sunk within forty minutes by the heavy shells of the battleships. The Zenta went down with one offi cer and 173 men from her crew of 324.443 Neither the French nor the British units of Lapeyrère’s fleet attempted to rescue the survivors, who reached the Montenegrin coast after five hours of swimming. With the thundering of the guns of Lapeyrère’s ships off Cape Menders on 16 August 1914 began the period of the Adriatic naval war which was colloquially called the “French War”, and which lasted until Italy’s declaration of war on the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy on 23 May 1915.
On 1 September, a dozen French battleships escorted by armored cruisers and lighter units sailed to Cattaro, where they bombarded the forts at the entrance of the Bocche di Cattaro. During that month the French made four sorties into the Adriatic, on 19 September reaching as far as Cape Planka. In October, the French made another three sorties. On 1 November, Lapeyrère made an attempt to take the Island of Lissa. At dawn of 2 November, a French destroyer entered the port, but after the Austro-Hungarian First Torpedo Flotilla led by the cruiser Helgoland arrived from Sebenico, the French left the island. Lapeyrère played the idea of sailing his fleet to Trieste, to provoke a clash with Haus’s battleships but quickly dropped it, as he calculated that the losses would have been prohibitive. He also could not consider amphibious operations against the Austro-Hungarian coastline because the French Army under the pressure of the German Army was in no position to send soldiers to the Adriatic. Th e French presence at the entrance of the Adriatic was weakened when the autumn stormy season arrived. The French ships could no longer be refueled on the open sea, and
by October Lapeyrère had to devise a scheme for rotating his ships back and forth to Malta. Despite the weakening the French naval forces at the entrance of the Adriatic, partially thanks to the war psychosis, Haus continued to receive regularly false intelligence of an impending French offensive. The Marinekommandant refused to risk his larger units, and the modern battleships remained in Pola. The only exemption was the temporary deployment of the Radetzky to Cattaro.

Speed Data:
KuK Kriegsmarine:
Viribus Unitis: 38km/h
Radetzky: 38km/h
Erzherzog Karl: 38km/h
Habsburg: 37km/h
Monarch: 33km/h

Sankt Georg: 41km/h
Kaiser Karl VI: 39km/h
Kaiserin und Konigin Maria Theresia: 36km/h

Novara: 50km/h
Admiral Spaun: 50km/h
Zenta: 41km/h
Kaiser Franz Joseph I: 35km/h
Tiger: 34km/h
Panther: 35km/h

Tátra: 61km/h
Huszár: 52km/h
Older Torpedo Gunboats: 36-48km/h
Torpedo Boats: 34-49km/h

U1: 19km/h / 9km/h
U3: 22km/h / 16km/h
U5: 20km/h / 17km/h

Marine Nationale:
Courbet: 42km/h
Danton: 36km/h
Démocratie: 36km/h
Republique: 35km/h

Leon Gambetta: 42km/h

Jurien de la Graviére: 42km/h

300ton types: 48-56km/h
450ton types: 55-58km/h
800ton types: 59-66km/h

Royal Navy:
Warrior: 43km/h
Minotaur: 43km/h

Acorn/Acheron/Acasta classes: 50/64/54km/h
River/Tribal/Beagle: 47/61/50km/h

 

[Dilandu]

I'd put my money on French. They simply have more heavy gun in action. Of all Austrian battleships, only six are armed with 12-inch guns, while all twelve French battleships are rather heavily armed.

P.S. Also, if I recall correctly, French have two armored cruisers in action? Victor Hugo and Jules Ferri?

 

[Dilandu]

On the other hand, Austrians have more firepower:

In total, French battleships have a combined broadside of:

40 x 305-mm guns
30 x 240-mm guns
15 x 194-mm guns

Austrian battleships (not counting coastal ones):

48 x 305-mm guns
34 x 240-mm guns
18 x 190-mm guns

 

[CV12Hornet]

The Monarchs are, obviously, not going anywhere. Nor will Maria Theresia or the older protected cruisers. Based on what was deployed in support of Goeben's breakout I'd expect the Austrian heavy OOB to be something more like this:

KuK Kriegsmarine:
3x Viribus Unitis class Dreadnoughts
3x Radetzky class Semi-Dreadnoughts
3x Erzherzog Karl class Pre-Dreadnoughts
3x Habsburg class Pre-Dreadnoughts

1x Sankt Georg Armoured Cruiser
1x Kaiser Karl VI Armoured Cruiser

1x Novara class Scout Cruiser (SMS Saida)
1x Admiral Spaun class Scout Cruiser

This is not a force I expect to be able to win against the combined Anglo-French force, due to how lightly armed their predreadnoughts are and how bad the Tegetthoffs are. The ships were badly unstable; heeled a tremendous 19 degrees in turns, not only exposing their unarmored below-waterline hull but also making them unable to maneuver with a list without capsizing; the funnel uptakes were unarmored and represented a major gap in their protective scheme; and the main and secondary batteries had uninterrupted hoists and no ventilation, leading to potential issues with flash and clear issues with gun crews unable to work the guns for very long. Not to mention they had to store ammunition in the back of the turrets to balance them and the handling rooms were used as ready storage.

The Courbets are not great shakes themselves but I'd expect them to manhandle the Tegetthoffs.

 

[Dilandu]

This is not a force I expect to be able to win against the combined Anglo-French force, due to how lightly armed their predreadnoughts are and how bad the Tegetthoffs are. The ships were badly unstable; heeled a tremendous 19 degrees in turns, not only exposing their unarmored below-waterline hull but also making them unable to maneuver with a list without capsizing; the funnel uptakes were unarmored and represented a major gap in their protective scheme; and the main and secondary batteries had uninterrupted hoists and no ventilation, leading to potential issues with flash and clear issues with gun crews unable to work the guns for very long. Not to mention they had to store ammunition in the back of the turrets to balance them and the handling rooms were used as ready storage.

The Courbets are not great shakes themselves but I'd expect them to manhandle the Tegetthoffs.

Basically it would depend on the distance. Austrian 305-mm mounts have max elevation of 20 degrees, and max range about 18.200 meters. French 305-mm mounts are limited to 14 degrees max elevation, and thus no more than 14.500 meters. On the other hand, French turrets are better designed in terms of reloading, and actually allow 2 shots per minute. So... it would essentially depend on tactics; which side would be able to gain the initiative and dictate the distance of combat.

 

[Tzoli]

Regarding the 305mm turtets of the Radetzky and Viribus Unitis classes:
The Viribus Unitis reported issues with ventillatikn the rest of the ships in the class did not. They solved the issue by ventillating air from the gun (casemate) deck rather from the main deck.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warship ... ml#p789937

The Austrians coild fire more quickly in the first minute and then reduced rate of fire afterwards:

Austria-Hungary 30.5 cm/45 (12") K10 Škoda - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

And the KUK did not only have 305mm superority but most of them are new /45 cannons

 

[SSgtC]

This is not a force I expect to be able to win against the combined Anglo-French force, due to how lightly armed their predreadnoughts are and how bad the Tegetthoffs are. The ships were badly unstable; heeled a tremendous 19 degrees in turns, not only exposing their unarmored below-waterline hull but also making them unable to maneuver with a list without capsizing; the funnel uptakes were unarmored and represented a major gap in their protective scheme; and the main and secondary batteries had uninterrupted hoists and no ventilation, leading to potential issues with flash and clear issues with gun crews unable to work the guns for very long. Not to mention they had to store ammunition in the back of the turrets to balance them and the handling rooms were used as ready storage.

The Courbets are not great shakes themselves but I'd expect them to manhandle the Tegetthoffs.

Basically it would depend on the distance. Austrian 305-mm mounts have max elevation of 20 degrees, and max range about 18.200 meters. French 305-mm mounts are limited to 14 degrees max elevation, and thus no more than 14.500 meters. On the other hand, French turrets are better designed in terms of reloading, and actually allow 2 shots per minute. So... it would essentially depend on tactics; which side would be able to gain the initiative and dictate the distance of combat.

Given the time period and the state of fire control, you can throw those maximum ranges right out. Neither side had the most advanced fire control systems so likely battle range is going to be no more than 10-12k yards. At those ranges, the French advantage in rate of fire will pay off in spades

 

[Tzoli]

Radetzky and VU was equipped with Barr & Stroud Rangefinders.
Radetzky: 2x 9ft for the 305mm turrets
2x 9ft for the 238mm turrets


VU: 2x 12ft for the 305mm turrets,
4x 9ft on the turret tops
2x 9ft for the 15cm guns

 

[Tzoli]

The Austrians have a considerable torpedo boat force and a few submarines if they could put them to good use while on the Anglo-French side we only have a number of destroyer divisions, no exact numbers or types.

 

[Airborne2001]

Would you be alright with me posting this on the AlternateHistory.com forum to help get some more feedback? I think that this is a really cool concept!

 

[Tzoli]

Would you be alright with me posting this on the AlternateHistory.com forum to help get some more feedback? I think that this is a really cool concept!

Sure