Speculative Mirage III upgrade path for a fictitious nation

Blackscorpy

Blackscorpy

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OK, here's the scenario - a fictitious European nation , an island somewhere in the N Atlantic, is in a search for a new fighter in the late 50s. As the selection process goes on, various aircraft are considered (politics aside): F-100, F-102, F-104, F-106, F-5, F-8, F-11 Tiger/F11F-1F Super Tiger, Draken, EE Lightning and MiG-21. After flyoffs and other considerations, the Mirage III is chosen.

I'd be interested to hear the viability of most of the upgrades I'm considering. If this doesn't fit the idea of the forum, feel free to remove this.

Major features as built (derived from Mirage IIIE):
-Avon engine
-Some airframe strengthening
-RWR if possible
-Winterization, is this needed?
-Provision for a rocket engine for interceptor duties

I considered doing a full redesign on the thing like the Swiss did, and also the Spey engined variant, but didn't see them as viable or needed options. The aircraft would be built locally, and the number would be around 100 to 150 aircraft. Projected entry into service would be slightly after 1965.

Here's the interesting bit: an MLU in the 80s, instead of acquiring Mirage 2000. I'm thinking about something along the lines of Mirage 3NG, with fly-by-wire and canards added, in addition to rewiring the aircraft to take NATO munitions (Skyflash or Aspide namely) and a Martin-Baker ejection seat. I'm not sure what to upgrade the radar to, or if to keep the Avon or give it something else, for example F404 (coinciding with an F/A-18 purchase). These upgraded planes would see service into the 21st century, I'm just not sure what to replace them with or if just to retire them.
 
A single Avon powered Mirage III prototype actually flew in real life I understand. From that the logical next step would be a Spey/ J-79 powered variant with updated electronics in the early 1970s (the name you are looking for here is obviously IAI Kfir) But after that still trying to milk the design starts to go counterproductive I think. No doubt it would be a quite capable aircraft. But the cost of modernization would be too high compared to going straight for a modern design.
 
Thanks for the opinion.

Well, pretty much all the improvements have been flown before. The Avon Mirage flew in '62, and according to some sources, also did Mach 1.3 at Mil power and clean. The FBW systems flew in Mirage 3NG in '82, the design being related to the Mirage 2000. The 3NG also included LEXes and some other improvements: http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/dassault_mirage-3ng.php Kfir, Cheetah and a few other programs (Swiss, Pakistanis, etc) have also updated the Mirage IIIs successfully.

The Spey Mirage was suggested, but never flew. RR hype perhaps? I'm favoring the Speys instead of J79s, partly because the presence of the (improved) Avon in the design (probably similar to the SF/Volvo RM6 later on). Besides, the Spey would be a "natural" choice, due to the possibility of using them in F-4s and Mirage IVs. Yes, I'd apparently be buying British-specced birds in the 60s.

I also started considering the F404 as part of the 80s upgrade program - they'd go well with the Hornets, and similar engine upgrades have been done with the A-4s in Singapore. F404 was also considered as an upgrade for the IAI Kfirs. Dassault also used some in the mid-80s, in the initial Rafale A prototype.

Besides extending the useful lives of the fighters, the upgrade would also give me a nice lifetime path for them - they'd get retired in the late 90s or early 2000s (about 30 years total life), and could be replaced by a more modern design. Given the end of Cold War and its effects in defense budgets, it'd also give me fairly "natural" cuts.
 
The point is if you go in the 1980s from the Kfir equivalent which you produced in the 1970s and further develop it with a modern engine like F404, modern electronics/radar and I suppose FBW, why to me it starts looking very much like Mirage 2000. Or the one engined Atlas Carver proposals. Just go the additional step and produce your own delta-winged fighter. After all you have already paid for most of the costs in developing the "modernization"

BTW said fictitious island nation doesn't happen to be Tarrantry is it?
 
Every likely upgrade was pursued by Atlas in the Cheetah series.

I'd imagine one would have been better off buying a new design by the mid-80's (as everyone essentially did) than continuing to upgrade the Mirage III's.

If you just bought F-18's, how much are you willing to spend on a modernization program to extend the service life of the Mirages? You might be able to get IAI to upgrade them or send them some refurbished Kfirs to keep them viable for awhile, and that would be cheap.


If you start talking about upgrading to the F404 and FBW, Lascaris is right, you might as well spend serious money on developing your own new-build program. And it would be much cheaper to just buy Mirage2000s (which is unlikely because you just spent a good deal of money on F-18's apparently). Or consider something slightly less capable like the F-20 or the Hawk2000 or similar projects which would probably be cheaper than your upgraded Mirages in the long haul b/c someone already paid the development costs. The cost of upgrading and refurbishing your Mirages is going to be quite a bit higher than you think.
 
IIRC the Mirage's rocket engine made it into hardware very early in the programme and then not much was heard from it thereafter. It was considered an excellent idea in the late 1950s, but unless your mythical air force is still anticipating flying point defence against high-flying fast bombers on short warning times in 1965 it seems rather pointless.


The rest, OTOH, makes a lot of sense. If you can get a pair of Sparrows (which is basically what Skyflash and Aspide are) onto the F-104, I see no reason why the Mirage couldn't similarly be altered. What system are you considering for the original delivery - off-the-shelf Cyrano radar and R530 AAM? Or will you go the Swiss route and have them delivered with a Hughes FCS and AIM-4/26 Falcons?


Other things to consider: what is your air force doing? During the Cold War, given the nation's position, the battlefield tactical nuclear mission is probably "out" unless you can hook into NATO mid-air refuelling assets or stage into the UK (provided it hasn't already been turned into a blasted wasteland). OTOH a geographically isolated island nation which is arguably going to straddle major sea lanes of communication is going to have an emphasis on the anti-shipping role in addition to its air-defence capabilities and not so much on surface-strike ironmongery. That means consideration of the heavy variant of Bullpup or possibly MARTEL in the initial build (or shortly thereafter) and one or more of Exocet, Harpoon, Sea Eagle, etc. in the upgrade before things like laser designators go on the shopping list. This may lean you towards an avionics fit similar to that which the Sea Harrier ended up getting (including, possibly, AMRAAM if they stay in service long enough).
 
Many years ago as a teenager(1990's) I looked at the idea of taking the Mirage Fuselage and removing one wing . then attaching this to another Mirage Fuselage . With Twin engines of more advanced design and a set of canards I figured I could get a far superior Aircraft . of course that was an idea I had because Australia had 80 of them , I also figured 40 twin engine long range fighters were better then what existed. I actually wrote a story about it but I can not find it . The idea was to mount the Hornets avionics in the Mirage and add the ability to mount Aim-7 Sparrow missiles. with increased fuel capacity using the increased body size i figured it was doable . of course i look back now and it is really likely that it would never work .
 
to improve the Mirage, do something about the wing. Automatic slats and flaps for dogfighting as a must-have.
 
The CAEA is Dassault & BA-106 (air base 106) Bordeaux-Mérignac unofficial museum. I modestly helped them some years ago - at their library & archive (because I'm, at core, an archivist and librarian aerospace nerd).

Dassault Mirage III NG / 50 M

www-caea-info.translate.goog www-caea-info.translate.goog

A long time ago I red about the Mirage III-NG and its main flaw: that the Mirage III airframe for obvious reasons had not been designed, build and optimized for analog FBW.
And if you start tweaking it that way, you get a Mirage 2000 - so why bother with the suboptimal III-NG ?

That was the lesson drawn by Dassault when comparing the III-NG and the 2000: both offsprings of the basic III, with the addition of analog FBW. Big difference: the 2000 was designed, right from the drawing board in 1972, for FBW. On the III-NG and in stark contrast, it was kind of "end of life afterthought".

This explains why the ultimate avatar of the Mirage III in 1987 ( Mirage 50M) dropped the FBW: it had added complexity, cost, but no real performance gain worth them.
 
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A parallel path actually taken was Pakistan’s ongoing updating of various Mirage III/ 5 variants which are still in service if being in the process of being replaced.
It (together with the F-16) was the real backbone of their fleet with emphasis on installing some modern new systems/ zero-life-ing the airframe and ATAR engine etc. rather than messing around with new engines, aerodynamics, FBW and the like.
In comparison with some of what is discussed above this approach may be less of a novelty for enthusiasts like us but certainly more of a realistic real world solution for countries like Pakistan that didn’t have many other choices at the time.
 
Goes back to pathology_doc's question: "what is your air force doing?"

If you're hypothetical air force is OK with transitioning from air superiority focused (which your list of candidate aircraft implies) to strike focused, with aircraft that retain intercept and limited dogfighting capability, then the Mirage - Kfir - Nammer path is going to keep you competitive with anyone up through the 2000s at least, and with local manufacturing capability you'd probably be doing a mix of remanufacturing and new builds.

On the other hand, if you're looking for air to air, you hit the limits of the airframe and original design much earlier. The Mirage III (in any of its developments) was just not going to be competitive once the F-15/F-16 generation of planes flew. As others have already pointed out, you can't develop a Mirage III into a Mirage 2000; you have to start fresh.
 
BB1984 said:
Goes back to pathology_doc's question: "what is your air force doing?"

If you're hypothetical air force is OK with transitioning from air superiority focused (which your list of candidate aircraft implies) to strike focused, with aircraft that retain intercept and limited dogfighting capability, then the Mirage - Kfir - Nammer path is going to keep you competitive with anyone up through the 2000s at least, and with local manufacturing capability you'd probably be doing a mix of remanufacturing and new builds.

On the other hand, if you're looking for air to air, you hit the limits of the airframe and original design much earlier. The Mirage III (in any of its developments) was just not going to be competitive once the F-15/F-16 generation of planes flew. As others have already pointed out, you can't develop a Mirage III into a Mirage 2000; you have to start fresh.
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You can argue with a straight face I think that Mirage 2000 evolved/derived from the earlier Mirage III designs, Dassault did have this tendency of their designs evolving/being inspired from each other but a Mirage III it is not. That said an evolutionary path of Mirage III --> Kfir --> Mirage 2000 makes a certain degree of sense. One could even argue this wasn't much different that what the South Africans tried to do with Carver.
 
Lascaris said:
Dassault did have this tendency of their designs evolving/being inspired from each other but a Mirage III it is not.
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The difference between Mirage III and Mirage 2000 brings to mind, for some reason, a comparison and contrast between the prototype Spitfire and a late-model IXc. The similarities are beyond doubt; the latter aircraft is in a different league.
 
Maybe, but Spiteful rather than even Spitfire Mk.47. Let me have some fun with my 2 cts...

Mirage I / II: Type 224 (dismal failure: lessons learned)

Mirage III-01 : Spitfire Mk.1 (has huge potential, not there yet)
Mirage IIIC: ---Spitfire V (better, but still suboptimal)
Mirage IIIE: ---Spitfire IX (good)
Mirage V/50: -Spitfire XIV (veeeery good)
Kfir: -----------Spitfire Mk.21 (mightily powerful, but airframe reaches its limits)
Mirage IIING: -Spitfire Mk.47 (end of the line)

Mirage 2000: - Spiteful (looks vaguely similar, but brand new plane with all the new shiny goodies)
 
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Archibald said:
Maybe, but Spiteful rather than even Spitfire Mk.47. Let me have some fun with my 2 cts...

Mirage I / II: Type 224 (dismal failure: lessons learned)

Mirage III-01 : Spitfire Mk.1 (has huge potential, not there yet)
Mirage IIIC: ---Spitfire V (better, but still suboptimal)
Mirage IIIE: ---Spitfire IX (good)
Mirage V/50: -Spitfire XIV (veeeery good)
Kfir: -----------Spitfire Mk.21 (mightily powerful, but airframe reaches its limits)
Mirage IIING: -Spitfire Mk.47 (end of the line)

Mirage 2000: - Spiteful (looks vaguely similar, but brand new plane with all the new shiny goodies)
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Nice.
I was trying to keep my parallels in the Merlin world, but I can't argue with this.
 
Even if it does not correspond exactly to this "fictitious country", I think that South Africa would have been the country which was closest to it (even more so than Israel with the Kfir).

In addition to the Aero Sud Super Cheetah D (with the SMR 95 engine of the MiG-29), there was also the study of the wing capable of supporting a missile at its end.

Otherwise, I still find that this artist's achievement (which I have never identified) would have made a magnificent evolution of the Mirage III (except for the front view).
 

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_Del_ said:
Every likely upgrade was pursued by Atlas in the Cheetah series.

I'd imagine one would have been better off buying a new design by the mid-80's (as everyone essentially did) than continuing to upgrade the Mirage III's.

If you just bought F-18's, how much are you willing to spend on a modernization program to extend the service life of the Mirages? You might be able to get IAI to upgrade them or send them some refurbished Kfirs to keep them viable for awhile, and that would be cheap.
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In which case let your country be the launch customer for the Northrop F-18L, what with your need of 100 - 150 aircraft.

Regards
Pioneer
 

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