Soviet/russian "Blue Hats"?

[lancer21]

As you know, the US aquired and tested and had a specific unit for many types of soviet/russian aircraft. USSR on the other hand only got their hands on some F-5E. So what if they manage to get a lot more american stuff to test. Iranian F-14 and F-4? Perhaps some Mirages from Libya or Iraq? Venezuelan F-16 in posts soviet times? How useful would they be to the soviet/russian aviation industry, and to VVS/PVO (to develop/alter tactics)?

 

[Dilandu]

As you know, the US aquired and tested and had a specific unit for many types of soviet/russian aircraft. USSR on the other hand only got their hands on some F-5E. So what if they manage to get a lot more american stuff to test. Iranian F-14 and F-4? Perhaps some Mirages from Libya or Iraq? Venezuelan F-16 in posts soviet times? How useful would they be to the soviet/russian aviation industry, and to VVS/PVO (to develop/alter tactics)?

Well, USSR got quite a lot of Western aircraft parts from local conflicts everywhere. It should be noted, that there was a... difference between USSR and USA here. While USA were often involved in local wars themselves and were forced to use a lot of modern American technology (because American public would not like, if American pilots were ordered to fly combat missions on outdated machines for secrecy reasons), USSR were generally involved only through proxies. Which were usually armed with... less than top class weapons. For example, in Vietnam, North Vietnamese did not have more modern machines than Mig-21 (and there were a lot of elderly Mig-19 that they used), and their most advanced SAM was S-75 (no S-125 for low altitudes, or S-200 for long-range interceptions).

So basically, US were more eager to get complete Soviet machines, because they usually got their hands only on old, or export equipment (downgraded), captured from USSR proxies.

USSR, on the other hands, received plenty of parts and bits of most modern American equipment. Not complete machines, but enough to make throughout analysis.

 

[lancer21]

This may be true for Vietnam, where indeed the USSR got their hands on quite a few modern US equipment, though only bits and bobs (AIM-7, AIM-9 variants which resulted in K-25 and R-13M, radar and other electronics bits etc.), but still not the same as having say a working F-4 to test imo. Besides after Vietnam as i understand there wasn't much modern US stuff USSR got their hands on, at least not that we know of.

So what informed folks think, would it be worthwhile to copy the AWG-9 if they get an iranian F-14 early enough? How about if we make it so either Iran buy F-15s as well (apparently there were discussions) before 1979, so USSR gets an intact F-15 too, or we make such that the israelis lose couple of F-15s and F-16s in 1982 but conveniently the wreckages are recovered by the syrians/soviets (there were certainly some close calls for F-15/16 losses even according to IAF themselves) would the soviets be better off copying the APG-63 and APG-66 in the 1980s, or at the very least use them to improve the N-001 and N-019 as much as possible?

How about copying the AWG-10, it seems from the data recently discussed here it had a quite a bit better range than even S-23ML!
Or things like an american Tolkachev?

Hell, what about all the american stuff mentioned above somehow ending up in China as well?! Imagine chinese F-14s flying alongside chinese MiG-23s (i know they haven't copied the MiG-23, just bits of it put on J-8-II). Though probably this might merit a different topic.

 

[Hood]

I'm not sure the Soviet electronics industry would have been much help by the mid-70s in reliably replicating the latest US electronics.
But it might have been instructive for their efforts all the same.

 

[Dilandu]

I'm not sure the Soviet electronics industry would have been much help by the mid-70s in reliably replicating the latest US electronics.
But it might have been instructive for their efforts all the same.

Well, it depend. Our element base was behind US, that's for sure. But our electronic architecture solutions were quite advanced. Look at out anti-ship missiles; US is only starting to get close to autonomous capabilities and decision-making potential of Soviet 1970s P-700 "Granit".

 

[lancer21]

I was looking at the weights of various radars, taking roughly contemporary types for instance the S-23D weight is 500kg (there seems to be various figures, i also saw 550kg) while the AWG-10 weight is 340kg, yet the AWG has at least TWICE the range vs a fighter (60nm/110km) the S-23D has versus a BOMBER (55 km) ! So something looks terribly wrong. The S-23ML gets closer, weight is 360 or 390 or 475kg (sources vary), range is iirc 85 km vs bomber, but still inferior despite being a decade later.

Pretty much same story for N-001 (575kg, does anyone heard different figures?) and APG-63 (250kg or slightly less), the 80nm range (150km approx) vs a fighter for the APG is equal to the max range of the N-001 despite weighing half as much!

Or you can compare it with the AWG-9 which weight about the same (560 or 590kg), but can do 115nm/210km vs a fighter.

I know it's not that simple listing and comparing all these ranges, but still it looks like soviet radars/electronics could use improvements whichever way they can get them (in this instance by somehow managing to capture american tech). If for instance they managed to get the heavy N-001 to at least match the half as heavy APG-63, that would be a big boost for the Su-27 WCS isn't it?