South American Tanks

[COLDOWN]

The Brazilian TAM is a contentious issue. There are too many claims and too few fundamentals. Personally, I think it is a patriotism exaggeration of the author's, despite the fact that he has done useful works for those who are interested in tanks.
In this article I addressed the topic: https://reportedebatalla.wordpress.com/2019/05/19/el-tam-brasileno/ (Spanish). But I kept investigating it, so I still haven't completed or corrected the mentioned post.
This is some kind of timeline about the TAM:

Let me know if you don't understand something.
Regards

 

[COLDOWN]

I also found a picture with an up-gunned variant. Was this real or is this some form of fictional artwork? If it is real, does anyone have any further documents or pictures related to it?

View attachment 629669

DL52 is a fake. Just a hobby design.

View attachment 630126

This is a german TH-300 from 1976, when it came to Argentina in 1977 it was renamed as TAM-A Prototype. The TAM argentine preserie started in 1978.

Maybe the TAM is a possibility, as it meets all the requirements, even though the production line was shut down in the 1990s.

I was in the ex TAMSE this year (march). Today it is just more than a workshop. There is no possibility of manufacturing tanks in Argentina; neither for the expense they require nor for strategic needs. So upgrading to TAM 2C is the most logical path.

Regards

 

[COLDOWN]

Sherman Repotencializado project from Brazil:

 

[DanielStarseer]

Is that book actually available somewhere?

 

[Apophenia]

Is that book actually available somewhere?

If you are asking about Stuart no Brasil - M3/M3A1 e Derivados, it can be ordered online:

Adquirir T&D

Home Adquirir T&D Adquirir T&D Revista Tecnologia & Defesa – 174 Revista Tecnologia & Defesa – 173 R$ 30,00 Comprar Revista T&D Segurança – 20 R$ 30,00 Comprar Revista Tecnologia & Defesa – 172 R$ 30,00 Comprar Revista Tecnologia & Defesa – 171 R$ 29,50 Comprar EM BREVE

tecnodefesa.com.br

Price in reais is R$ 60,00 (~ € 10.00, USD 11.20) ... not sure about shipping.

 

[GTX]

You can also get this version:

here: https://www.trackpadpublishing.com/product-page/brazilian-stuart plus a few other places

 

[DanielStarseer]

Much obliged.

 

[riggerrob]

How many Stuarts were converted to XM3B mortar-carriers or simple APCs?
How many M113 APCs did Brazil buy?

 

[riggerrob]

According to wikipedia, Brazil bought 612 M-113 APCs.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Picture says it all: an Argentine Army truck fitted with eight water cooled 12.7mm Browning machine guns.

 

[Roland55]

VAPE, yeah, thats the name. im really trying my best to find if the gun is a mockup or a real one.

 

[Apophenia]

More specifically, that is the Panhard (Societe de Contructions Mecaniques Panhard et Levassor) VAPE 2 prototype. This fire-support vehicle was based on the French VBC (of which the Panhard VAE submission was a direct copy).

The Renault RMI VAPE 1 prototype - based on the French 6x6 VAB - avoided the Panhard's large gap between first and second road wheels. Both VAPE prototypes were armed with a 90 mm CS Super 90 GIAT F4 main gun mounted in a SAMM-TAMSE-TENSA AR90 stabilized turret (aka TTB 90) with 20 x ready rounds.

The companion VAEs were APCs armed with a 20mm Rheinmetall RH 202 cannon (as in the Marder-based VCTP). The Renault VAE had its 20 mm mounted in a Creusot-Loire Industrie (later GIAT) TL20 turret. I'm not sure but, likely, the Panhard VAE had a similar turret.

For the VAE/VAPE programme, Panhard was partnered with TENSA Proyectos Especiales (Talleres Electromecánicos Norte SA), Renault with ASTARSA (Astilleros Argentinos Rio de la Plata SA). Production types might have been powered with domestically-produced 250 hp Perkins diesels (these amphibious vehicles were driven in the water by
Messier-Dowty hydro jets). In the end, the Ejército Argentino had to decide of either the VAE/VAPE or VCTP/TAM for reasons of economy.

BTW: Does anyone know for sure what the correct explanation of the acronyms are? I see the following:

VAPE = Vehículo Argentino de Apoyo a la Exploración (Argentine Recce Support Vehicle);
VAPE = Vehículo Anfibio para Exploración (Amphibious Vehicle for Reconnaissance); and
VAPE = Vehículo Anfibio Pesado de Exploración (Heavy Amphibious Recce Vehicle

Also:

VAE = Vehículo Argentino de Exploración (Argentine Reconnaissance Vehicle); and
VAE = Vehículo Anfibio de Exploración (Amphibious Reconnaissance Vehicle)

Which is correct?

 

[Roland55]

More specifically, that is the Panhard (Societe de Contructions Mecaniques Panhard et Levassor) VAPE 2 prototype. This fire-support vehicle was based on the French VBC (of which the Panhard VAE submission was a direct copy).

The Renault RMI VAPE 1 prototype - based on the French 6x6 VAB - avoided the Panhard's large gap between first and second road wheels. Both VAPE prototypes were armed with a 90 mm CS Super 90 GIAT F4 main gun mounted in a SAMM-TAMSE-TENSA AR90 stabilized turret (aka TTB 90) with 20 x ready rounds.

The companion VAEs were APCs armed with a 20mm Rheinmetall RH 202 cannon (as in the Marder-based VCTP). The Renault VAE had its 20 mm mounted in a Creusot-Loire Industrie (later GIAT) TL20 turret. I'm not sure but, likely, the Panhard VAE had a similar turret.

For the VAE/VAPE programme, Panhard was partnered with TENSA Proyectos Especiales (Talleres Electromecánicos Norte SA), Renault with ASTARSA (Astilleros Argentinos Rio de la Plata SA). Production types might have been powered with domestically-produced 250 hp Perkins diesels (these amphibious vehicles were driven in the water by
Messier-Dowty hydro jets). In the end, the Ejército Argentino had to decide of either the VAE/VAPE or VCTP/TAM for reasons of economy.

BTW: Does anyone know for sure what the correct explanation of the acronyms are? I see the following:

VAPE = Vehículo Argentino de Apoyo a la Exploración (Argentine Recce Support Vehicle);
VAPE = Vehículo Anfibio para Exploración (Amphibious Vehicle for Reconnaissance); and
VAPE = Vehículo Anfibio Pesado de Exploración (Heavy Amphibious Recce Vehicle

Also:

VAE = Vehículo Argentino de Exploración (Argentine Reconnaissance Vehicle); and
VAE = Vehículo Anfibio de Exploración (Amphibious Reconnaissance Vehicle)

Which is correct?

Thank you so much for the explanation.
i might have to ask if you have info about the guns being real or mockups, since I've seen pictures of one in a museum and the gun looks pretty sketchy.
As for the acronym is:
VAE: Vehículo Anfibio de Exploración (Amphibious Reconnaissance Vehicle)
VAPE: Vehículo Argentino de Apoyo a la Exploración (Argentine Recce Support Vehicle)
Where did you get this info, even for argentines this vehicle is extremely obscure and not very known.
Anyway here are more pics.

 

[Roland55]

@Apophenia one of the prototypes conserves the gun in a pretty complete state. w

But the Second one lacks the cover of the barrel and it kinda looks like it was some kind of Mock-up. it still has a tread at the end, but i would like to know for sure.

PD: other thing that makes me wonder, is the Muzzle-Brake, I've never seen an 90mm F4 with that type of Muzzle-Brake.

 

[Apophenia]

Sorry, I don't know if the main gun was a mockup or not. On your last photo of the Panhard prototype, the 'gun' does look an awful lot like a length of pipe!

Source: From old plain text files on my HD. And uncredited, I'm afraid

I have a vague memory of an interview with a GIAT engineer about their VAE/VAPE projects. I do remember some of my collected bits coming from Taringa! But, when I tried to retrace my steps, I get a 404.

 

[Roland55]

Sorry, I don't know if the main gun was a mockup or not. On your last photo of the Panhard prototype, the 'gun' does look an awful lot like a length of pipe!

Source: From old plain text files on my HD. And uncredited, I'm afraid

I have a vague memory of an interview with a GIAT engineer about their VAE/VAPE projects. I do remember some of my collected bits coming from Taringa! But, when I tried to retrace my steps, I get a 404.

The gun on the second one lacks the cover and muzzle-brake, sources and info are scarce, unless someone has one of the manuals of the vehicle (witch there are). i might have to go to the Museum in Ciudadela (buenos aires) to see it in person and see if at least has a breech and other real components, thing that i could do in a few months.

 

[Petrus]

As for the VAE (Vehículo Anfibio de Exploración or Vehículo Argentino de Exploración) there were two variants of the vehicle: VAE 1, which was similar to the French VAB, and VAE 2. Despite the name it was rather an APC (for crew of 2 and 10 dismounts) than a recce vehicle (however probably it was to used by cavalry/reconnaissance units).

Here you've got some photos.

Piotr

 

[Roland55]

As for the VAE (Vehículo Anfibio de Exploración or Vehículo Argentino de Exploración) there were two variants of the vehicle: VAE 1, which was similar to the French VAB, and VAE 2. Despite the name it was rather an APC (for crew of 2 and 10 dismounts) than a recce vehicle (however probably it was to used by cavalry/reconnaissance units).

Here you've got some photos.

Piotr

Nice pictures !!. such a sad thing that those vehicles weren't mass produced

 

[COLDOWN]

New spanish video about the VAE and VAPE

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oVow5-050M

You can use the youtube translation.

 

[DanielStarseer]

Thoroughly enjoying the Brazilian Stuarts addition to my collection.
Amazon leaves much to be desired in the category,
and browsing the authors-and-their-literature section here doesn't yield much more than what's already discussed.

But, is anyone aware of further hard print literature on South American armor, ideally Brazilian M41 thru Tamoyo/Tamoio, and especially anything Engesa related?

If nothing known is available or in the works, any of you authors familiar with the subject material, are you looking for any crowd-sourced investment as encouragement to get it rolling?

 

[Pre_historyX]

Joya SAA-1




A colombian Self-propelled Artillery with a 105-30 mm Nexter LG-1 MK-III howitzer

 

[DanielStarseer]

Positive that's a 155?
Judging by those ammo crates on the ground, and that crewmember's size in comparison to the gun,
it looks closer to 105.... maybe even D-30 derivative (122mm),.... but 155 looks a bit of a stretch, no offense.

 

[Fluff]

Positive that's a 155?
Judging by those ammo crates on the ground, and that crewmember's size in comparison to the gun,
it looks closer to 105.... maybe even D-30 derivative (122mm),.... but 155 looks a bit of a stretch, no offense.

105-30 mm Nexter LG-1 MK-III

Colombia - El Sistema de Artillería Autopropulsado ESART Joya SAA-1.

Erich Saumeth Cadavid realiza un interesante análisis del sistema de artillería autopropulsado de desarrollo local, el ESART Joya SAA-1

www.zona-militar.com

 

[Pre_historyX]

Positive that's a 155?
Judging by those ammo crates on the ground, and that crewmember's size in comparison to the gun,
it looks closer to 105.... maybe even D-30 derivative (122mm),.... but 155 looks a bit of a stretch, no offense.

105-30 mm Nexter LG-1 MK-III

Colombia - El Sistema de Artillería Autopropulsado ESART Joya SAA-1.

Erich Saumeth Cadavid realiza un interesante análisis del sistema de artillería autopropulsado de desarrollo local, el ESART Joya SAA-1

www.zona-militar.com

oh, thanks for correct me

 

[Magus]

Does that mean they are considering the Osorio again?

I can't see how. Engesa went bankrupt in 1993 and I'd be shocked if the plans survived 25+ years.

IIRC Engesa's factory was sold to Embraer after the bankruptcy, and while Embraer isn't currently in the ground vehicles business they might still own the blueprints.

 

[gral_rj]

Does that mean they are considering the Osorio again?

I can't see how. Engesa went bankrupt in 1993 and I'd be shocked if the plans survived 25+ years.

IIRC Engesa's factory was sold to Embraer after the bankruptcy, and while Embraer isn't currently in the ground vehicles business they might still own the blueprints.

The Osório project documentation belongs to the Brazilian Army(as do the two prototypes). Engesa's tooling was bought by Agrale, who builds the Marruá Jeep series.

 

[Roland55]

Nahuel DL-43 (recycled) During a parade

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

The Patagon was an Argentine derivative of the SK 105. It was a hybrid of sorts, being given a refurbished FL-12 turret from retired AMX-13s. Production was supposed to take place in Comodoro Rivadavia, under the supervision of Steyr advisors. A prototype was unveiled in 2005, and an order of 39 was placed, but was cancelled after four units were produced, in 2008, due to the project being deemed uneconomical.

 

[Grey Havoc]

due to the project being deemed uneconomical.

More like the funds being embezzled by the then President!

 

[Sherman Tank]

due to the project being deemed uneconomical.

More like the funds being embezzled by the then President!

Is embezzlement of funding not fundamentally uneconomical?

 

[COLDOWN]

Well, in terms of armament purchases the military field is always open for corruption and lobbying of any kind.

The Patagon project was for 40 units at $ 23.4 million ($ 585,000 per tank). But the first 4 units (including 1 prototype) ended up costing 1.9 million each. A total of 5 units were built before the project was canceled.

 

[Roland55]

Question regarding Foreign Sherman Fireflies (In this Case Argentine):

Argentina was one of the largest users of the Sherman Firefly, managing to get all 3 versions of it (IC, VC and the Hybrid). Now did the Argentines got APDS rounds for their fireflies? i wonder since with such a huge amount of this tanks (over 200 tanks), wouldn't they have bought some ?

From left to right we can se 3 different versions of them (VC, IC and the hybrid), noticeable by the space in their road wheels and in the case of the Hybrid, the Hull.

 

[COLDOWN]

Own production of "modern projectiles" started in 1952/3. Less complex projectiles had been produced from previous decades.
(I say it from memory)

 

[Roland55]

Begs the question if we had our own type of ammo for it, or we received any APDS from the Uk?

 

[COLDOWN]

Begs the question if we had our own type of ammo for it, or we received any APDS from the Uk?

Between 1946-52 british design and production.
From 1953 british (surely) design and argentine production.
I don't know if Argentina has made its own design for these projectiles. You should consult that in the Argentine forums

 

[T. A. Gardner]

As for Sherman tanks, don't forget that Israel sold Chile 100 M51 Super-Shermans in the 90's.



They also got a number of modified M50 Shermans from Israel mounting an Israeli designed IMI-OTO 60mm hyper-velocity medium support system (HVMS)



These lasted in service until about the year 2000 when replaced with Leopard 1 tanks.

 

[cattalonX]

MB-3 Tamoyo Prototype Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com

The Bernardini MB-3 Tamoyo was an unusual tank project. The first MB-3 Tamoyo prototype was completed in 1982. However it received no orders and the project was abandoned.

www.military-today.com

 

[DanielStarseer]

...sad seeing armored vehicles fall into that state of physical deterioration and eventual obscurity... hopefully that vehicle was/is destined for a museum rather than cut up for scrap.

 

[Roland55]

A certain project I've heard about, but i dont really have something that proves that it existed is a prototype for a modernization of the Uruguayan M24s, for what I've read it was supposed to be something around the lines of the NM-116 (A Norwegian upgrade for the M24, that added a 90mm gun, the same used on the AML-90). The prototype was made by an Argentine company TENSA (or sometimes called MATENSA after it "merged" with Matra).


Norwegian update to illustrate.

Not much is said about this than rumors or speculations, as the upgrade was declined and supposedly only 1 example was fitted with the gun (probably returned to its original state later), Anyone heard about this upgrade?

 

[COLDOWN]

A certain project I've heard about, but i dont really have something that proves that it existed is a prototype for a modernization of the Uruguayan M24s, for what I've read it was supposed to be something around the lines of the NM-116 (A Norwegian upgrade for the M24, that added a 90mm gun, the same used on the AML-90). The prototype was made by an Argentine company TENSA (or sometimes called MATENSA after it "merged" with Matra).

View attachment 661177
Norwegian update to illustrate.

Not much is said about this than rumors or speculations, as the upgrade was declined and supposedly only 1 example was fitted with the gun (probably returned to its original state later), Anyone heard about this upgrade?

Hello. As far I remember -from Sigal Fogliani and the Uruguayan forums- around 1980 Uruguay had finished giving general maintenance to its Chaffees fleet. The result of this demonstrated the need to modernize its motorization and its armament.
In 1982 Argentina presented the prototype with a new locally made engine (surely a FIAT truck engine and possibly the same model as planned for the TAM prototype). This proposal surely involved other components of the tank (possibly local made Philips radios) and turrets with 90mm guns (of French origin, possibly the models already mentioned in other Argentine prototypes*). The engine change was executed, but the turret and/or barrel change was not executed.
The proposal was rejected and immediately afterwards, Uruguay hired Brazilian companies to carry out the modernization and standardization of the motorization and armament.

*Argentina never built 90-millimeter guns, except recoilless guns.