South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[Herman]

Reply to post #931.


You are right about the features of the Ratel. Technically however, the Ratel chassis is low tech, significantly simpler than the Saracen, the French VAB and the Brazilian Sucuri from the same era, for example. It is simply an armoured hull on top of three MAN off-road truck axles, fitted with a commercial Büssing truck engine and an off the shelf COTS/MOTS truck type automatic transmission. The turret is derived from that of the AML/Eland and is unpowered. please note: THESE FEATURES ARE NOT NECESSARILY BAD! The use of proven commercial components resulted in a highly reliable and long-lived vehicle, low maintenance, easy to service and repair and with wide availability of spare parts. If one looks at the Saracen for instance: the whole thing is a custom built military vehicle. This means purpose designed suspension and drive-line components, etc. This is expensive, spares can only be sourced from the manufacturer and without the benefit of extensive commercial service, reliability is often not very good. The reason to develop a multi-wheel vehicle with independent suspension, equally-spaced wheels and a so-called H-type drive line lay-out, like the Saracen, was to obtain the greatest possible terrain mobility, especially over soft (European) ground surfaces and to allow the lowest possible roof line. These features were not required by the South Africans. Ground surface is generally hard in the African bush and increased vehicle height more of an advantage than a disadvantage. Extreme reliability and serviceability were premium requirements for the Ratel and these were achieven by using proven commercial components.


It has been claimed that the Ratel was the first wheeled infantry fighting vehicle. It was certainly the most heavily armed wheeled APC at that time but conceptually, it was not really that much different to the OT 64 or the BTR 60P, both armed with 14.5mm machine guns, both of which entered service in the sixties. The Ratel was significantly larger and heavier than both these vehicles, was more heavily armed and was most certainly superior as IFV.


My comment about the Saracen looking right was no more than that. It is a fine looking vehicle with the closely spaced wheels, low bonnet line, etc. It is most certainly not in the same class as the Ratel as a fighting vehicle.

 

[kaiserbill]

On that note, the Saracen engine was a commercial unit too.

When I was a fireman 20 years or more ago, we had a few old fire engines in the engine room, that had just been retired, or were kept on as display vehicles. One was a Dennis pump (fire engine) and another was a Dennis TL (turntable ladder) both from the 1950's.

These had the same engines as used on the Saracen, a RR B80 if I recall correctly, which I think was originally first used in a RR limousine that carried various royalty and heads of state.

Anyway, I digress... ;D

 

[Herman]

Before the end of WW2, Rolls Royce decided to develop a range of petrol powered military engines based on a basic piston size but varying numbers of cylinders. The standard bore would be 3.5 inches (89mm) and the stroke would be 4.5 inches (114.3mm). The four cylinder B40 had a capacity 2.8 litres, the six cylinder B60 was 4.25 litres and the B80, straight eight, was 5.675 litres. There was also a B81 for which the bore was enlarged to 3.75 inches (95.5mm), resulting in a capacity of 6.5 litres. These engines became available in 1948. The B40 (80hp) was used in the Austin Champ "jeep", the B60 (130hp) was used in the Ferret and Fox scout cars and the Humber military truck, and the B80 (160hp) in the Saracen and Saladin. The B81 (220hp) saw service in the Salamander fire tender and the Stalwart amphibious truck and, I believe, in an artillery tractor. Although the engines were primarily designed and built for military purpose, I think that the B81, in a modified version, was also used in some models of Rolls Royce and Bentley cars.

 

[Herman]

As far as use of the B80/B81 engines in motor cars is concerned, I did not have my facts straight. These engines did see some commercial use though.

http://www.kda132.com/pdfs/technical/engine/B-Series-Engine.pdf

 

[kaiserbill]

The B80 also powered a range of the Dennis fire appliances. Definitely the F12, F24, and F26 models.. possibly also the F2 model.

Maybe others, but I would need to check.

 

[robunos]

Just for completeness, the artillery tractor was the Leyland Martian...

http://www.motorstown.com/images/leyland-martian-02.jpg

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #936


You are right. As the URL I posted above explains, the use of the Rolls Royce B series engines was much wider than I had initially thought. Good engines apparently, aside from some trouble with corrosion of the aluminium-headed versions, apparently. In some ways old-fashioned though: an F-head design rather than the overhead valve designs which became virtually universal after WW2 and straight eights had also disappeared by the end of the forties, replaced by V designs.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Thanks SA Bushwar.

I assume then that TFM was the manufacturer?
They manufactured Casspirs and Mambas, and also developed the RG31 and RG32, before being swallowed up in the various mergers and takeovers.

Do you have any info on this vehicle?

No info unfortunately - vehicle is used as crane truck by N4 Trucks east of Pta.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Sandstone was tasked with recovering 2 of the Macks for their own display, and 2 for the Armour museum, consisting of both Armoured Bulperd and softskin config.
The recovery was effected from 4 VRP (Vehicle Reserve Park) north of Pretoria.

I've no idea how many were used in service, but we know now that at least 2 of the armoured Bulperds are in existence.

Whilst browsing pics of the recovery, in the first pic, one can make out two or three interesting vehicles in the backround. I think they may either be the AC200 prototype vehicles as discussed earlier, or perhaps Ingwe vehicles.

I wonder if one can have a look around the place?

A set of pics at this link.

http://www.sandstone-estates.com/index.php/military-vehicles/40-military-vehicles/2674-co-operation-between-the-south-african-armour-museum-and-sht-goes-from-strength-to-strength

Here's one that ended up in civilian hands...

 

[sa_bushwar]

Kaiser, I went through that thread, and the only photos I saw were the ones you posted! Sorry, it has been awhile. I feel like quite the idiot!

Please don't feel that way, Tanner.
Everything is good.
We're all trying to shine a light into the dark corners, and the very fact that you're on the thread is a great contribution toward that.

On that note, here is the second type of Veldskoen vehicle, as seen on page 1 of this thread.
This is Jonathan, whereas the Veldskoen with fewer windows was nicknamed Dawid.
This is only the second picture I've seen of the Jonathan Veldskoen.

From my research yeaterday, it appears this was potentially a very important vehicle, that was tied up in that intrigueing black&white photo of that lineup of vehicles of which some of the middle vehicles which have remained unidentified until this far.
More on this in my next post...

Is this "Dawid" and "Jonatan"?

 

[kaiserbill]

Excellent pic SA Bushwar.

It looks like the two prototypes parked together, nose to nose.
At least, from what we can gather, there were two prototypes called Dawid and Jonathan, from the info posted earlier in the thread.

Where was that picture taken?
It looks like the two are still together then.

Dawid is the one on the bottom, with the fewer windows, judging from this pic below. You can just make out an indistinct name in your bottom picture near its nose.

 

[Herman]

I assume Dawid and Jonatan were built in the early or mid-eighties? As far as I can see, Ratel/MAN axles on coils and a water-cooled Atlantis diesel engine. What was the purpose of the vehicle? Armoured personnel carrier (sort of Ratel light)?

 

[sa_bushwar]

Excellent pic SA Bushwar.

It looks like the two prototypes parked together, nose to nose.
At least, from what we can gather, there were two prototypes called Dawid and Jonathan, from the info posted earlier in the thread.

Where was that picture taken?
It looks like the two are still together then.

Dawid is the one on the bottom, with the fewer windows, judging from this pic below. You can just make out an indistinct name in your bottom picture near its nose.

Yes, they are still together! Used to often see them at the SANDF base next to the satelite SAAF museum at PE airport. Since I left PE end 2008, I'm not sure if they are still there? Anyone nearby to go and have a look?

 

[sa_bushwar]

For interests sake, the dark green vehicle in your first 4 photos on this page, the Recce ones, is called the Tapir.

A monocoque design that could seat 4 or 5 up front, with a weapons platform or transport area at the hull rear.
Also Atlantis Diesel Engine (ADE) powered, 138kW, 90km/h. Length 7,1m, width 2,46m, height 3m, weight 14,5tons. Can withstand 2 TM-57 anti-tank mines used together.

Again, these vehicles are now available on the open market. At least one has been demining in Afghanistan according to pictures and their captions. I have no idea how many were produced, but it can't be that many.

Here is a Tapir recently being used in demining operations in Moz.

 

[kaiserbill]

I assume Dawid and Jonatan were built in the early or mid-eighties? As far as I can see, Ratel/MAN axles on coils and a water-cooled Atlantis diesel engine. What was the purpose of the vehicle? Armoured personnel carrier (sort of Ratel light)?

Herman, on Page 49 Reply 724 and 725 there is the comprehensive backround information detailing the Remark Project vehicles that were trialed 1985, that led to the Veldskoen vehicle, as written by another chap on another forum.
Page 1 Reply 3 has some further pics.

It was an important project, and the design goal appears to be a "super duper" vehicle designed to replace both the Buffel and Casspir with a single, far more capable vehicle. The chap I quoted who provides the explanation alludes to the Sandock Austral entrant into the Remark vehicles trials as having Ratel axles, and I think it was from this vehicle that the Veldskoen was developed.

 

[kaiserbill]

SA Bushwar, I like your idea of revisiting earlier posts with aditional pics and info.

There are a few vehicles in the thread still with little or no info or pics.
Indeed, this is the precise way the Ratel protoype and Springfield Bussing Buffel got onto this thread, and indeed the internet at last.

Thumbs up!

 

[Herman]

Thanks Kaiserbill. The summary on page 49 does indeed give an excellent summary of the heritage of these vehicles.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks Kaiserbill. The summary on page 49 does indeed give an excellent summary of the heritage of these vehicles.

It has left me wondering though.

In Reply 879 Page 59, SA Bushwar has 2 pics of what appears to be a Buffel replacement. They look to be based on Samil components.
One is called the Sireb, the other one is unknown.
There is speculation that together with the Samil based Bulldog and Rhino, that these were Samil based replacements for the Buffel in some programme.

None of these 4 SAMIL type Buffel replacements mentioned above are in the Remark photo below.


Yet the Remark Project from the early to mid 80's was a project to replace both Buffel and Casspir.
The Remark vehicles pic still throws up the 2 middle vehicles (Remark 32 & 33) as being unknown, apart from the fact that they are either Truckmaker, TFM, or MMI/van der Wetering Engineering prototypes.

The four suppliers/teams contracted were: Dorbyl/Sandock Austral, Truckmakers, TFM
and MMI/Van de Wetering Engineering.

The concept vehicles ranged from a
relatively cheap, simple, practical vehicle in the form of the Nyala (31) with
leaf spring suspension to a very expensive and technically much more complex
Dorbyl/Sandock Austral (No 34) vehicle with coil spring mounted hub reduction
axles similar to the Ratel.

I suspect two seperate Buffel replacement programme (cheaper) and Casspir & Buffel replacement programme (more expensive), with the latter (leading to Veldskoen) having features that would make it a crossover between an APC and proper IFV?
Speculation on my part.

 

[sa_bushwar]

How does this vehicle fit into the Remark debate, if at all?

 

[kaiserbill]

Looking at the Remark vehicles, I think the Dorbyl/Sandock Austral entry was the one second from left, alongside the Buffel.

The description given by that chap that I posted earlier stated that the competition was structured so that the winning vehicle would be further developed, incorporating ideas and features from the other 3 losing vehicles that were desirable.

So the Veldskoen was a further development, but the vehicle you posted is the Sandock Austral Ingwe.
If you look at the Dorbyl/Sandock Austral entry, they share features.

It looks like the Ingwe is a simpler development of their original entrant into the Remark competition. For example, the commanders cupola is no longer present, which also entails a change to the hull shape in that area, as well as changes to the front of the vehicle.
Perhaps when they developed the line on and as it morphed into a new vehicle (Veldskoen) they simply took their original prototype and reorientated the design into a simpler vehicle and role?

Same company, same axles, looks similar to their original Remark entry.

Again, this is pure speculation on my side.

http://www.armouredvehicles.co.za/ingweAPC.htm

 

[sa_bushwar]

Not sure if these were posted before, but some more Buffel derivatives:

No 4 and 5 seen at SAAF Museum Zwartkops
No 6 and Rooikat seen at Armour Museum Bloemfontein

Snaakse Buffel no 4 is the Bulldog.

The Name Plate in the picture below from "snaakse Buffel 4" above, confirm it as a "BULLDOG MPV 11 MAN ARMED PERSONNEL CARRIER MOUNTED ON SAMIL MK I 'CHASSIE'."

Manufactured by SHE Engineering?

"Snaakse Buffel 5" is the Rhino (Peter Stiff's Taming the Landmine p.98), often wrongly referred to as the Bulldog.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #952


Googled SHE engineering in RSA. Apparently still exists, in Edenvale, Gauteng. Don't know what they do though....

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to post #952


Googled SHE engineering in RSA. Apparently still exists, in Edenvale, Gauteng. Don't know what they do though....

Did they not produce the South African variants of the Kynos 8x8 military trucks?
Radar, transporter, recovery, engineering vehicles etc...
Look at the badge on the one in the pic below, and the link.

http://www.trucksplanet.com/catalog/model.php?id=1101

 

[kaiserbill]

On the Nyala (original) vehicle in the Project Remark, which is the 2nd vehicle from the right, I've found out some of its technical specs:

Engine:Midmounted, underfloor, naturally aspirated, water cooled, ADE 407 6 cylinder diesel engine developing 240bhp.
Transmission: Close coupled ZF 6- speed transmission
Transfer case: Paramount custom designed two speed transfer case mounted at extreme rear of vehicle
Axles: MAN hub reduction axles employing differential through drive from rear axle to front axle
Driver position: Center of vehicle
Cooling system: Cooling air inlet via blast protected side gills on both sides of hull feeding centrally in siamese fashion into shrouded radiator and exhausting through gills at rear of hull after passing over powerpack. Engine watercooled.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #955.
Interesting lay-out. The engine is apparently coupled to a ZF 6 HP500 transmission. From this the drive-shaft passes backwards to a transfer case behind the rear axle. This transfer case is a kind of U-drive. From the case, a drive-shaft passes forward, entering the differential of the rear axle from behind and from the rear differential, a drive shaft passes forward to the front differential. This type of lay-out for the transfer case and live axles is similar to that of the U.S. Dragoon 300 APC.

 

[kaiserbill]

Does anybody know what veicles are in these two photos?
In particular, the vehicle on the right that has obviously been previously blast tested.
I thought it was the Veldskoen, but it is different to the pictures of the 2 Veldskoen prototype vehicles in windows and side grill (engine placement?).
I then thought perhaps it was AC200, but again, it has too many differences.

EDIT: Not the Ingwe either. It bears a very close resemblance to the vehicle in the Remark photo, the one 2nd from left that seems to have branched out into the different Veldskoen and the Ingwe. Even here though, it appears to have a slightly different roofline above the front windows. The other features are too difficult to make out from the Remark photo...

 

[kaiserbill]

Also, I was perusing the following site, which is a specialist enviromental control system designer and manufacturer.

http://www.booyco.co.za/index.php?projects+1142

They list the TTD, Veldskoen, Bison, and LZN prototype vehicles as some of their projects, among others. They also designed the air conditioner for the Leopard tanks for Australia, licencing the design to Tenix.

There are a couple of projects there that I've not heard of, such as the Reumech Gear Ratio Motley AFV crew cooling system and the LIW KSP1 crew and engine cooling.

 

[kaiserbill]

Herman mentioned earlier on about the potential of a book on the various firearms projects.

One would think a book on the various military vehicle projects would be needed.
Publications before have been generic and have covered airforce and navy with regards to South Africa, but it seems to me that if you covered simply the military vehicles, from the Marmon Herrington up to the modern day, and include all the various projects and prototypes, you would have the makings of a very thick, and very fine book.

It would be interesting to sort out the lineage and relationship of many of the vehicles and projects.

 

[kaiserbill]

In my post 957 above, I'm now leaning toward that one blast tested hull being an Ingwe.

 

[kaiserbill]

A couple more interesting vehicles in these pics.

 

[curious george]

https://www.facebook.com/saarmourmuseum?ref=stream

" Krokodil"


"Mechem was contracted by CSL to take Ratel components and repack these components into a new hull to achieve the following:
a) Debuss from the rear by the infantry section.
b) Improved ergonomics for the crew and section.
c) Demonstrate certain ballistic protection ideas. (Spaced armour)
d) Demonstrate certain mine protection ideas. (SFF mines)
e) Provide a lower silhouette than Ratel.
f) Improve on the mobility of Ratel.
Work started during the 96/97 financial year. Ratel BDB135M was issued to Mechem to be stripped for this purpose."

 

[kaiserbill]

Excellent Curious George!

That answers most of the speculation about that weird looking vehicle.

It is from a later timeframe than I thought.

EDIT: Very happy to see the Armour Museum has a facebook page now.
Not only has a little more light been shed on the Mechem Krokodil, but I see there is a bit more info there on the 6x6 armoured car that was entered into the Rooikat competition.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #962:


This vehicle is really ugly! It is a very peculiar thing. Apparently Ratel axles but they are suspended on leave springs rather than the original coils. The Ilkwa is a much better modification of the Ratel to achieve some of the suggested aims.

 

[Herman]

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/f31/san-army-exercise-pics-10673/

 

[sa_bushwar]

Spook 1??? ...(with unintended photo-bomb by stranger!)

 

[Herman]

Reply to #966.


I wonder what the interesting appearing vehicle is, sticking out behind the Hippo/Spook in the first photo?

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to #966.


I wonder what the interesting appearing vehicle is, sticking out behind the Hippo/Spook in the first photo?

Marmon Herrington MkIV?

 

[kaiserbill]

From the Armour museum facebook page link provided by Curious George:

Prototype, Class 1, New Generation Armoured Car Project

Crew: 4
Combat Mass: 24 017 metric tons
Armament: 76 mm High Pressure Gun (RSA); 7,62 mm Browning Machine gun; 60 mm Breech Loading Mortar and 8 x 81 mm Smoke Generator Launchers
Ammu...nition: 76 mm Gun-APFSDS/T, HE; 60 mm Mortar - HE; Smoke; illuminating
Engine: Mercedes Benz, OM402A, V-8 Cyl, Liquid Cooled, Diesel, 239 kW (320 hp) at 2 500 r/min
Transmission: ZF-6-HP-600, fully automatic, 6 Fwd 1 Rev, Manual selection 1-3 and Rev, Configuration 6 x 6, with Transverse and Longitudinal Differential Locks
Speed: Road 104 km/h
Operating Range: Road 1 300 km
Unique Feature: Internally controlled Tyre inflation/deflation System; turret Mounted 60 mm Mortar

This vehicle was built in South Africa by the firm Thyssen Henschell of West Germany, at Sandock Austral (Pty) Ltd. circa 1982/83.

The original turret was destroyed during other trials.

The design was based on minimum requirements for protection and power-to-mass ratio. The 76 mm high-pressure gun was considered standard for the new generation armoured car.

 

[kaiserbill]

This is the 6x6 vehicle entered into the 2nd(?) round of Rooikat trials, which included the very large 8x8 Bismarck and the 8x8 development from the 1st round that eventually was further developed into the Rooikat.

It is very interesting in that it has been already previously been identified as a Thyssen Henschel TH400. The museum has said in the quote above that it was built by Thyssen Henschel at Sandock Austral. Seeing as these are two seperate companies, I assume that Sandock Austral tied in with TH for the competition, or simply licence produced a design of theirs.

It is interesting to note that the "official" sole Thyssen Henschel TH400 prototype in Germany was built later than this NGAC class 1 vehicle, and that there are slight differences. The rear hull top is slightly different, as well as the top of the hull beneath the turret. The engine fitted to the TH400 and this NGAC class 1 vehicle is also different. The museum again states that this NGAC class 1 prototype : "was based on minimum requirements for protection and power-to-mass ratio." which would explain the engine choice, and might allude to mine protection, or the lack therof compared to the eventual Rooikat, and the fact that the Rooikat is designed to be proof against 23mm Armour Piercing frontally.

It is a pity the turret was destroyed.

Anyway, quite interesting as the internet and a particular forum in particular dealing with the "sole" TH400 prototype believe that there is only one TH400 in existence. Of course, with a different turret, engine, manufacture site, and slight hull differences between the two vehicles, that could be viewed as correct in the strictest technical definition.

 

[curious george]

From f/book,

app one of two prototypes,guy called it "Skerpioen"(Scorpion)

Awaiting details re time frame,samil based,etc?