Shorts Starstreak Missile

Stumbled on this whilst looking for something else....as you do.

It appears that Saudi Arabia is a user of LMM...

That means the confirmed users are UK, Ukraine, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia. Wouldn't be surprised if more are added to the list in the near future.

WDS 2022: MBDA, SAMI sign agreement on missile maintenance

Saudi Arabian Military Industries (SAMI) and European missile systems conglomerate MBDA signed a memorandum of understanding to further their relationship at the World...
www.janes.com
 
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So how is this mix of missiles intended to be used? Is Starstreak reserved for higher value targets while the presumably cheaper Martlet more useful for engaging UAVs and slower less well protected aircraft?
 
Colonial-Marine said:
So how is this mix of missiles intended to be used? Is Starstreak reserved for higher value targets while the presumably cheaper Martlet more useful for engaging UAVs and slower less well protected aircraft?
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Sounds about right. I’ll add that at Mach 4.5, Starstreak will also have a big effect on IFVs, if not tanks.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
So how is this mix of missiles intended to be used? Is Starstreak reserved for higher value targets while the presumably cheaper Martlet more useful for engaging UAVs and slower less well protected aircraft?
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Starstreak for anything manned. Martlet for UAV's appears to be the way its used. I guess the frequency of when those targets are encountered is seen by the loading scheme.
 
A Stormer kill (of something) has been posted on Reddit, not sure where the original footage was released.

Missile appears to be a LMM (no Dart seperation and large explosion seen), I think the target is a UAV of some kind, buts its very unclear. This is the first time we've seen a Stormer kill from inside the vehicle, previous footage of the console showed another system shooting down a target (believe it was SA-8 that time).

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/11aq2lo
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/11aq2lo/ukraine_troops_destroy_russian_aerial_target/


Obviously its not a radar image...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1629110187746369538
View: https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1629110187746369538?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
 
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timmymagic said:
A Stormer kill (of something) has been posted on Reddit, not sure where the original footage was released.

Missile appears to be a Martlet (no Dart seperation and large explosion seen), I think the target is a UAV of some kind, buts its very unclear. This is the first time we've seen a Stormer kill from inside the vehicle, previous footage of the console showed another system shooting down a target (believe it was SA-8 that time).

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/11aq2lo
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/11aq2lo/ukraine_troops_destroy_russian_aerial_target/


Obviously its not a radar image...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1629110187746369538
View: https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1629110187746369538?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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Original video was from @shtirlitz53 on Twitter, he was responsible for the earlier tweets of a Stormer in Post 83, which suggests that this video is from the same unit which is in the Kyiv Region.....which means the object being shot down is more than likely a Shahed 131 or 136.

Longer video of the engagement in the tweet below, with a glimpse of the display output from the ADAD.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1629083712712331273
View: https://twitter.com/Shtirlitz53/status/1629083712712331273
 
NMaude said:
Could it be some sort of age-restriction thing?
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Nah, there's a couple of peoples' accounts that I posted on other forums and they appeared for a long time, and then suddenly they stopped appearing, no notifications or explanation. I asked Twitter but no reply as of yet.
 
TomS said:
Trying to force people onto the actual Twitter site to engage with the advertising. Not a huge shock.
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It won't make join Twitter.

On another note have there been any recent new stats on how the Starstreak has been performing in Ukraine?
 
Forest Green said:
Nah, there's a couple of peoples' accounts that I posted on other forums and they appeared for a long time, and then suddenly they stopped appearing, no notifications or explanation. I asked Twitter but no reply as of yet.
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The Dead District definitely posts some NSFW content regarding the war in Ukraine, and a lot are marked as aged restricted. This post doesn't contain anything untoward however, I'll load up the images.
 
 
NMaude said:
On another note have there been any recent new stats on how the Starstreak has been performing in Ukraine?
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Nothing whatsoever. Truth is I don't think we will get proper analysis on amy MANPAD either, not sure the crews will be recording details of engagements in detail if at all. LMM does appear at least to be one of the more effective systems at killing Orlan and other ISR drones though.
 
Zoo Tycoon said:
timmymagic said:
LMM does appear at least to be one of the more effective systems at killing Orlan and other ISR drones though.
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Video evidence also of kills against Mi28, Ka52 and Caliber cruise missiles. A downed Su34 also was noted to have damage consistent with a Starstreak hit.
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The KA-52 was definitely hit by LMM, as the engagement was recorded on video, but IIRC the impact with the ground wasn't seen in the video that was released. It was certainly damaged and had a very hard landing, and given the rapid speed of its descent from the hit it probably was a kill, but until we definitively see evidence on the ground we won't know for sure.

Mi-28UB was definitely a Starstreak kill though..
 
timmymagic said:
The KA-52 was definitely hit by LMM, as the engagement was recorded on video, but IIRC the impact with the ground wasn't seen in the video that was released. It was certainly damaged and had a very hard landing, and given the rapid speed of its descent from the hit it probably was a kill, but until we definitively see evidence on the ground we won't know .
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Oryx lists as destroyed, Ka52 loss number 18. Believe a column of smoke was observed suggesting it significantly burned.

www.oryxspioenkop.com

Attack On Europe: Documenting Russian Equipment Losses During The 2022 Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

www.oryxspioenkop.com www.oryxspioenkop.com
 
Zoo Tycoon said:
Oryx lists as destroyed, Ka52 loss number 18.
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How many Ka-52s are there left? I mentioned this in passing to my brother a few weeks ago and he said Russia never had many and had lost a significant number of them in service.
 
NMaude said:
Zoo Tycoon said:
Oryx lists as destroyed, Ka52 loss number 18.
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How many Ka-52s are there left? I mentioned this in passing to my brother a few weeks ago and he said Russia never had many and had lost a significant number of them in service.
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Pre-war they were said to have 133, according to Oryx 33 have been confirmed destroyed, so 25% of the fleet has been destroyed (granted we don't know how many have been delivered in 2022/23, but its not likely to be a huge amount). Given that some helo losses are bound to have not been recorded I think you can count on them having at least 25% loss rate.
 
Initial ka52 contract for VKS was for 24 helos. A year later there was another contract for 146.
Around mid 2021 there have been some low 140-ish airframes delivered. also in 2021 there was a new contract for 30 more M variants.
Initially plan was for 30 to be delivered by end of 2023.
Early this year there was report of first 10 M delivered to VKS.

3 choppers were lost in accidents in russia and 1 was lost in syria. That's before the losses in ukraine.

So right now VKS might have 180 airframes delivered minus 4 lost prior to war minus whatever number was lost in 2022/2023.

Unless the 146 airframe contract somehow superseded the 24 one, so it wasnt 24+146 but just 146. Not sure how likely that is.
 
When it comes to helicopters the normal piece time rule is;- one in three will be undergoing maintenance, one in three will be used for crew training and one in three will be available for operations. Although it’s commonly said the Ka52 is pretty tough they’ve been flown very hard. The maintenance percentage is high because helicopters normally have resonance issues and single point failures which can only be addressed with components that need to be replaced when they’ve done a pre calculated flying hours life.

On this basis, my guess of the number of operational Ka52’s is a number between 10 and 50. Fully trained flight crew might be a problem as well.
 
Video of Starstreak launch from shoulder mount...from a video by Bihus around anti-UAV/Lancet operations using ZU-23-2 teams on MTLB and trucks. From the translation on Youtube it appears they're very happy with Starstreak and wish they had more. The operator (as I understand it) says his MTLB was saved from an approaching Lancet by a neighbouring Starstreak team. From what he describes I suspect they were firing LMM (although Starstreak is shown being launched).

Worth watching it all, but I've set the video for just before the Starstreak team fires..

View: https://youtu.be/Pdizx0eaX5Y?t=384
 
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1635yankee said:
One wonders how much cheaper, allowing for size of production run, a guided, gun-launched projectile is than a pocket-propelled one with the same level of performance.
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Over in the South African arms thread is a mention from someone who spoke to Rheinmetall reps at a show about a cost comparison between the Cheetah C-RAM missile and the necessary number of AHEAD shells necessary to down a target...it appears Rheinmetall believed that the Cheetah missile would be cheaper than a few bursts with AHEAD. Complex ammo is expensive...
 
1635yankee said:
One wonders how much cheaper, allowing for size of production run, a guided, gun-launched projectile is than a pocket-propelled one with the same level of performance.
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Similar to or more expensive per kill.
 
Kat Tsun said:
1635yankee said:
One wonders how much cheaper, allowing for size of production run, a guided, gun-launched projectile is than a pocket-propelled one with the same level of performance.
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Similar to or more expensive per kill.
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Depending on brains in the shell, the quick references I found for M982 Excalibur and Ground Launched GBU39 put the advantage well in favor of the cannon projectile, even with recycling existing and paid for rocket motors for the GLSDB.
 
zen said:
Ok I thought this was a thread about Starstreak.
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I reported it in hopes that a bunch of it can be moved to the appropriate thread.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Kat Tsun said:
1635yankee said:
One wonders how much cheaper, allowing for size of production run, a guided, gun-launched projectile is than a pocket-propelled one with the same level of performance.
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Similar to or more expensive per kill.
Click to expand...
Depending on brains in the shell, the quick references I found for M982 Excalibur and Ground Launched GBU39 put the advantage well in favor of the cannon projectile, even with recycling existing and paid for rocket motors for the GLSDB.
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GLSDB doesn't exist outside of marketing brochures. Not sure where you got the idea it's more expensive than a Excalibur though. It has like three times the range so it's probably worth it anyway. You also found some weird references, because GBU-39 is cheaper than M982, as of FY2023. $48,000 USD versus $100,000 USD on average.


A Stormbreaker costs twice as much as M982 but can hit moving targets without external guidance. It's still cheaper than a Javelin, because it's a glide bomb deployed by aircraft. Excalibur is a single 155mm shell with an INS kit. It's $70,000. Copperhead was similarly expensive, but can hit moving targets, but also requires a ground designator team which needs to be emplaced and in the proper position...

A self-guiding Copperhead would probably cost similar to Stormbreaker or Javelin, so six digits (maybe twice as much as Excalibur), because it requires shock hardened electronics.

Once you factor in the ancillary equipment like laser designators, or amount of munitions needed to be expended to hit mobile targets, the advantage of the single unit cheaper shell tends to evaporate. Per pound of explosive, a missile or rocket will always deliver more killing power for less cost, at least when it comes to delivering ordnance against wide area targets, than shells.

Excalibur persists mainly due to minimum range issues with GMLRS and relative paucity of M270 rocket launchers in inventory, not due to its own merits. If CLGPs were good, you wouldn't have dumb artillery in the Navy, and every tank would fire laser guided long-rods. Unfortunately, they aren't, which is why engagement costs between a single anti-ship missile like Griffin ($140,000) and a dozen laser-guided 57mm shells ($160,000) are more similar than they are alike.

Often this is to the detriment of the CLGP, because you need a dozen ALaMOs to deliver the same explosive mass as a Griffin (more, actually, but we're being generous and assuming ALaMO performs decently okay with the rough equivalent of a 40mm grenade inside it).

CLGPs trade cost per pound of explosive delivered (a rough approximation of killing power) for the ability to be fired from more platforms. That is rarely an optimal trade and they are often used to expand the capability of existing systems instead. Compared to the cost of a rocket alone, CLGPs are bad, but compared to the cost of a brand new artillery system and crew training schedules and whatnot, CLGPs are great.

If the choice is between stapling Starstreaks to the side of a vehicle, or giving it laser guided shells, the choice is obvious: Starstreak.
 
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Kat Tsun said:
Scott Kenny said:
Kat Tsun said:
1635yankee said:
One wonders how much cheaper, allowing for size of production run, a guided, gun-launched projectile is than a pocket-propelled one with the same level of performance.
Click to expand...

Similar to or more expensive per kill.
Click to expand...
Depending on brains in the shell, the quick references I found for M982 Excalibur and Ground Launched GBU39 put the advantage well in favor of the cannon projectile, even with recycling existing and paid for rocket motors for the GLSDB.
Click to expand...

You found some weird references, because GBU-39 is cheaper than M982, as of FY2019. $40,000 USD versus $85,000 USD.

A Stormbreaker costs twice as much as M982 but can hit moving targets without external guidance. It's still cheaper than a Javelin, because it's a glide bomb deployed by aircraft. Excalibur is a single 155mm shell with an INS kit. It's $70,000. Copperhead was similarly expensive, but can hit moving targets, but also requires a ground designator team which needs to be emplaced and in the proper position...

A self-guiding Copperhead would probably cost similar to Stormbreaker or Javelin, so six digits (maybe twice as much as Excalibur), because it requires shock hardened electronics.

Once you factor in the ancillary equipment like laser designators, or amount of munitions needed to be expended to hit mobile targets, the advantage of the single unit cheaper shell tends to evaporate. Per pound of explosive, a missile or rocket will always deliver more killing power for less cost, at least when it comes to delivering ordnance against wide area targets, than shells.

This is one of those immutable things and is the main reason why multiple rocket launchers have survived for 75+ years in military use.

Rockets are better for delivering large blast-type warheads to kill particularly annoying things, like warships or reinforced structures, while cannons and aviation bombs are better at delivering penetrating warheads due to the high speeds they impact. It would be hard to fit a reinforced bunker buster into a GMLRS but trivial to fit a blast-frag warhead or DPICM, which can annihilate soft targets like C3I and SAM sites.
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GROUND LAUNCHED SDB, not a basic GBU-39.
 

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