Roland Payen projects and prototypes

[Deltafan]

On the airwar.ru websites some photos of the Payen's AP.10 and Pa.22. A few of them are unknown on Secretprojects :

Уголок неба ¦ Payen AP.10

Уголок неба ¦ Payen Pa.22

 

[hesham]

On the airwar.ru websites some photos of the Payen's AP.10 and Pa.22. A few of them are unknown on Secretprojects :

Уголок неба ¦ Payen AP.10

Уголок неба ¦ Payen Pa.22

My dear Deltafan,

Such as PA-120 ?.

 

[Deltafan]

On the airwar.ru websites some photos of the Payen's AP.10 and Pa.22. A few of them are unknown on Secretprojects :

Уголок неба ¦ Payen AP.10

Уголок неба ¦ Payen Pa.22

My dear Deltafan,

Such as PA-120 ?.

Sorry Hesham, I don't understand your question about this Pa.120

Can you explain.

 

[hesham]

My dear Deltafan,

it was not a question but confirming to what you said.

 

[Deltafan]

OK, sorry.

 

[hesham]

From L'Air 1943.

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks Hesham

 

[hesham]

http://acversailles.free.fr/documentation/08~Documentation_Generale_M_Suire/Reportages/Personnes/PAYEN_Roland/Roland_Payen.pdf

And we can put them here.

 

[hesham]

And;

 

[hesham]

And;

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://aeroclub.saverne.pagesperso-orange.fr/Zfichiers/AeroJack/AeroJack43.pdf

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[Deltafan]

Thanks a lot for the work Hesham !

 

[hesham]

From AFM11 magazine.

 

[iverson]

Does anyone know how these engines were supposed to work?

 

[jcf]

Does anyone know how these engines were supposed to work?

Henri Melot -- Steam-Oil Jet Plane (1935); article & patent

 

[Deltafan]

Does anyone know how these engines were supposed to work?

I have in my archives a discussion dating from December 2007 on the French forum Aérostories. French aviation writer Philippe Ricco replies to Christian Bonnet (I think he was a restorer of old planes):

-Bonnet : It is possible that no development followed, due to poor performance due to low compression ratio. In order to counter this inconvenience, Melot made a device with a free piston engine (hey, it reminds me of Pescara), compressed air was needed at start-up. Ernest Morize seems to have studied a similar system.

-Ricco : No, it was not because of a performance problem, but rather the autonomy of the device. I had discussed it in particular with Philippe Poisson-Quinton, who had been responsible for studying this device, before participating, after the war, in the creation of ONERA. He had been very pleasantly surprised by the results obtained.
The trouble is that this trump thruster system is a flow accelerator, just like a ramjet. Alas, it needs a complement to initiate the phenomenon and obtain the thrust. We also find the same principle described in certain studies by Henri Coanda.

My two cents.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://aeroclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Ae%CC%81rogramme-du-Patrimoine-n%C2%B009-janvier-2018.pdf

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks a lot Hesham, Great find

Hi,

http://aeroclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Ae%CC%81rogramme-du-Patrimoine-n%C2%B009-janvier-2018.pdf

Thanks a lot Hesham ! Great find !

 

[Deltafan]

On Pinterest, a "four views" Payen drawing (1989 ?) by french designer Hubert Cance, for the US magazine Skyways :

Drawing : "Payen Pa.22/IR" (Original art by Hubert Cance) | Aircraft design, Paper aircraft, Drawings

Sep 18, 2021 - Payen Pa.22/IR. 1 page 4-Views plan drawings done for the US magazine Skyways.. Original Drawing

www.pinterest.fr

 

[Deltafan]

An unknown photo of the Pa.49 B on ebay, but with a wind tunnel model of an older project/model (Pa.100 or other Payen delta canard)

AVIATION PHOTO AVION PAYEN PA 49 | eBay

Finden Sie Top-Angebote für AVIATION PHOTO AVION PAYEN PA 49 bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!

www.ebay.de

 

[Deltafan]

Well, as I bought the photo on ebay a few minutes ago, it's now copyright free

(I will deliver the photo with a better resolution than on ebay as soon as I receive it)

 

[Grey Havoc]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9egienxNe4

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks for the video Grey Havoc

I got the Payen photo from ebay today. As promised:

 

[richard B]

Is it a Payen design?





found here : https://www.ebay.de/itm/203488489880?hash=item2f60dbf198:g:ZB8AAOSwfLJgwM~G

 

[Deltafan]

Is it a Payen design?

found here : https://www.ebay.de/itm/203488489880?hash=item2f60dbf198:g:ZB8AAOSwfLJgwM~G

AFAIK, no. I never seen such a design from Payen. A 33 hp steam engine is also not one of the known engines of the payen projects. Moreover the readable signature (BEKA / 41 ?) is not that of Roland Payen either.

But Payen (and maybe more the Payen Pa.400) is probably one of his source of inspiration.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/payen-mitsubishi-pa-400.35868/#post-427925

 

[martinbayer]

The legible text mentions an "Amateurkonstrukteur" (amateur constructor/designer), so it's likely none of the usual suspects.

 

[Deltafan]

A few Payen projects from an old issue of Le Trait d'Union:

• Payen RP.420 fighter (K28B)

Well, since this post from Stargazer 8 years ago, and the RP.420 3 views, we got, a drawing from Jemiba and, some days ago, another drawing from CiTrus90.

I send the drawing of CiTrus90 to the Musée Delta (created by Roland Payen and today's French home of the history of Payen and delta aircraft) and, maybe for the first time since 20 years, they answered... And they even send me an unknown original drawing of Roland Payen on the RP.420. What is wrote on it is :

PR n°1 (maybe PR = project)
September 1935 (I cannot read the day, between 10 and 19, maybe 18)
Fighter plane
NR Payen (NR=Nicolas Roland)
Engine Gnome et Rhone 14 Kdrs
All-metal magnesium construction
Retractable landing gear
2 counter-rotating propellers
with 4 machine guns
Single-seater fighter

Maybe the 3 views drawing (Jean Molveau, 1993, in Le trait d'union) was a later project (2 ?) with only two machine guns located outside the propellers field.
All metal construction with magnesium and the GR 14 Kdrs engine were unknown for the RP.420. According to the book Les moteurs à pistons aéronautiques français 1900-1960 (Robert J. Roux, Docavia/Larivière, 1987) the power of the 14 Kdrs engine (1933) was 750 hp.

 

[hesham]

Is it a Payen design?

View attachment 658700



found here : https://www.ebay.de/itm/203488489880?hash=item2f60dbf198:g:ZB8AAOSwfLJgwM~G

My dear Richard,

they mentioned also Konnen in the text,maybe a same person as here;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/a-vtol-from-luxembourg.31119/#post-340792

 

[CiTrus90]

A few Payen projects from an old issue of Le Trait d'Union:

• Payen RP.420 fighter (K28B)

Well, since this post from Stargazer 8 years ago, and the RP.420 3 views, we got, a drawing from Jemiba and, some days ago, another drawing from CiTrus90.

I send the drawing of CiTrus90 to the Musée Delta (created by Roland Payen and today's French home of the history of Payen and delta aircraft) and, maybe for the first time since 20 years, they answered... And they even send me an unknown original drawing of Roland Payen on the RP.420. What is wrote on it is :

PR n°1 (maybe PR = project)
September 1935 (I cannot read the day, between 10 and 19, maybe 18)
Fighter plane
NR Payen (NR=Nicolas Roland)
Engine Gnome et Rhone 14 Kdrs
All-metal magnesium construction
Retractable landing gear
2 counter-rotating propellers
with 4 machine guns
Single-seater fighter

Maybe the 3 views drawing (Jean Molveau, 1993, in Le trait d'union) was a later project (2 ?) with only two machine guns located outside the propellers field.
All metal construction with magnesium and the GR 14 Kdrs engine were unknown for the RP.420. According to the book Les moteurs à pistons aéronautiques français 1900-1960 (Robert J. Roux, Docavia/Larivière, 1987) the power of the 14 Kdrs engine (1933) was 750 hp.

Wow!
Glad I could be of help and thank you very much for sharing what the museum sent you.

Maybe we should make more drawings and email them, and they will send us back some other original drawings and info??

 

[Deltafan]

A few Payen projects from an old issue of Le Trait d'Union:

• Payen RP.420 fighter (K28B)

Well, since this post from Stargazer 8 years ago, and the RP.420 3 views, we got, a drawing from Jemiba and, some days ago, another drawing from CiTrus90.

I send the drawing of CiTrus90 to the Musée Delta (created by Roland Payen and today's French home of the history of Payen and delta aircraft) and, maybe for the first time since 20 years, they answered... And they even send me an unknown original drawing of Roland Payen on the RP.420. What is wrote on it is :

PR n°1 (maybe PR = project)
September 1935 (I cannot read the day, between 10 and 19, maybe 18)
Fighter plane
NR Payen (NR=Nicolas Roland)
Engine Gnome et Rhone 14 Kdrs
All-metal magnesium construction
Retractable landing gear
2 counter-rotating propellers
with 4 machine guns
Single-seater fighter

Maybe the 3 views drawing (Jean Molveau, 1993, in Le trait d'union) was a later project (2 ?) with only two machine guns located outside the propellers field.
All metal construction with magnesium and the GR 14 Kdrs engine were unknown for the RP.420. According to the book Les moteurs à pistons aéronautiques français 1900-1960 (Robert J. Roux, Docavia/Larivière, 1987) the power of the 14 Kdrs engine (1933) was 750 hp.

Wow!
Glad I could be of help and thank you very much for sharing what the museum sent you.

Maybe we should make more drawings and email them, and they will send us back some other original drawings and info??

Maybe. At least, we can try

 

[Deltafan]

Hi everybody,

Help wanted !

The link of the November 1934 italian video of the Payen Pa.101 is dead

Enjoy !!!!!!!!!! ;D

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

I could not find it again on the WWW

If anyone can find it again, he will be the best forumer of the Universe

Hi !

The video is available again on the net (on another link)

View: https://youtu.be/gIF_SmwwWlE

 

[Deltafan]

Found today on Twitter :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1016020509904048129

View: https://twitter.com/colorizationfr/status/1016020509904048129


The original photo (from Wikipedia) :

Payen PA-22 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/y2a22x

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/y2a22x/french_payenmelot_jet_fighter_project_equipped/

 

[Justo Miranda]

Payen Fighters​

Between 1932 and 1942, Nicolas Payen designed a series of wooden canard-delta airplanes with a radical tandem-wing configuration.

In 1933 he built the Pa 100 Flèche Volante with small wings called machutes and a 67 degree swept delta tailplane, to compete in the 3rd Coupe Deutsch. The machutes had mobile wingtips which acted as ailerons and electrically-operated metallic flaps. The landing gear consisted of one centreline main leg, retracting backwards, and two outrigger auxiliary wheels retracting into the tailplane.

The engine should have been one 180 hp Regnier R6, six-cylinder straight air-cooled, driving a fixed pitch wooden airscrew. But it was not possible to get one in time to participate in the competition and Payen had to adapt his project to the only engine available: one 380 hp Gnôme-Rhône 7Kd Titan Major seven-cylinder radial air-cooled, weighting 270 Kg, totally unsuited for a racing aircraft. It was necessary to install a fixed undercarriage in more advanced position, to compensate the extra weight, and a tail skid. The wingtips ailerons were also changed by others, safer and of conventional type.

The refurbished plane was named Pa 101 Avion-Flèche, had 4.26 m wingspan, 5.75 m length, 2.2 m height, 6.86 sq.m wing surface, 750 kg maximum weight and one estimated maximum speed of 400 kph. It flew for the first time on 17 April 1935, being damaged in an accident just eight days later.

The Pa 101 airframe served as the basis for a new racer project, called Pa 110 CD (Coupe Deutsch). Designed in 1935, it differed from the previous model by its conventional landing gear, retracting backwards into the fuselage sides. It was hoped that it might be able to fly at 490 kph powered by one 200-240 hp Hirth 508D, eight-cylinder inverted-Vee, air-cooled engine, but the project was cancelled due to lack of funding.

When the Spanish Civil War began, the Republican Government had great difficulties in acquiring combat airplanes abroad, due to the international blockade. In the summer of 1936 Nicolas Payen offered the Spanish communists to build the Pa 110 C.1, the military version of the racer, through the Luxembourgian banker Rosenthal.

The power system designed for the fighter was made up of two 220 hp Renault 6Q-01, six-cylinder straight air-cooled engines installed in tandem face-to-face. Both engines were connected to the contra-rotating propellers power shaft by means of a Cotal-Baudot gearbox that allowed to electrically disconnect any of the engines by means of a clutch.

It was going to have an armament of two 7.5 mm Darne machine guns installed under the machutes and one 20 mm H.S. 9 cannon, firing through the propellers hub, but the French Government had banned its export to Spain and had to be replaced by one 23 mm Danish Madsen cannon. The Pa 110 C.1 would have an estimated maximum speed of 460 kph, flying with one engine, and 550 kph with both engines. The estimated range was of 850 km.

The arrival of the Soviet fighters Polikarpov to Spain in October meant the cancellation of the project, which was redesigned as Pa 112 C.1 to adapt it to the Chasseur Monoplace C.1 specification published by the Ministère de l'Air on 3 June 1937.

The Renault 6Q were replaced by two 200-205 hp Salmson 9ND nine-cylinder radial air-cooled (surplus) engines commonly used by the Bloch M.B.81 of the l’Armée de l’Air and by the Besson B. 411 of the l’Aéronavale. Proposed armament was either a 20 mm H.S. 9 or an Oerlikon FFS cannon and two 7.5 mm MAC 34 M39 belt-feed machine guns installed in the interior of the machutes, or two MAC 34A drum-feed installed under the machutes.

A mock-up using the airframe of the Pa 101 was built in 1938. After being examined by technicians of the l’Armée de l’Air, the project was rejected at the beginning of 1939, because of the great complexity of the power system. Payen offered to build the Pa 300 instead, a fighter capable to surpass the 520 kph of the Programme Technique A23 if they provided him with an H.S.12 Y-45 engine. But the military, who had done most of his career flying in biplanes, found the flèche aerodynamic solution to be too radical and preferred to build the Arsenal VG 33.

To fight these prejudices, Payen built the technological demonstrator Pa 22/2 Fléchair, which was captured by the Germans in 1940 while performing aerodynamic tests in the O.N.E.R.A. wind-tunnel of Chalais-Meudon. Under the new administration, the prototype was modified with the installation of a 180 hp Regnier R6B-01 engine and a new open cockpit with the windscreen of one Arsenal VG 33. It made his first flight on 18 October 1941 and was destroyed during an Allied bombing in April 1944.

 

[hesham]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/y2a22x

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/y2a22x/french_payenmelot_jet_fighter_project_equipped/

We have it in reply # 133.

 

[Deltafan]

Payen offered to build the Pa 300 instead, a fighter capable to surpass the 520 kph of the Programme Technique A23 if they provided him with an H.S.12 Y-45 engine. But the military, who had done most of his career flying in biplanes, found the flèche aerodynamic solution to be too radical and preferred to build the Arsenal VG 33.​

An idea of what the Pa.300 could have looked like ?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Payen offered to build the Pa 300 instead, a fighter capable to surpass the 520 kph of the Programme Technique A23 if they provided him with an H.S.12 Y-45 engine. But the military, who had done most of his career flying in biplanes, found the flèche aerodynamic solution to be too radical and preferred to build the Arsenal VG 33.​

An idea of what the Pa.300 could have looked like ?

No

 

[Tonton-42]

Payen offered to build the Pa 300 instead, a fighter capable to surpass the 520 kph of the Programme Technique A23 if they provided him with an H.S.12 Y-45 engine. But the military, who had done most of his career flying in biplanes, found the flèche aerodynamic solution to be too radical and preferred to build the Arsenal VG 33.​

An idea of what the Pa.300 could have looked like ?

No

Does Pa.310CB have a connection to the Pa-300?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Payen offered to build the Pa 300 instead, a fighter capable to surpass the 520 kph of the Programme Technique A23 if they provided him with an H.S.12 Y-45 engine. But the military, who had done most of his career flying in biplanes, found the flèche aerodynamic solution to be too radical and preferred to build the Arsenal VG 33.​

An idea of what the Pa.300 could have looked like ?

No

Does Pa.310CB have a connection to the Pa-300?
View attachment 685467

I think not, the Pa 300 was a Jockey fighter project

 

[hesham]

Payen offered to build the Pa 300 instead, a fighter capable to surpass the 520 kph of the Programme Technique A23 if they provided him with an H.S.12 Y-45 engine. But the military, who had done most of his career flying in biplanes, found the flèche aerodynamic solution to be too radical and preferred to build the Arsenal VG 33.​

An idea of what the Pa.300 could have looked like ?

No

Does Pa.310CB have a connection to the Pa-300?
View attachment 685467

I think not, the Pa 300 was a Jockey fighter project

May it looks like this one.