Prüfstand XII: submarine launched V-2 rockets

[T. A. Gardner]

Writeup with a promise of more: http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=5728

There are several obvious--and serious--issues with this:

First, how do you stabilize it during launch? In anything other than calm seas, a rarity in the open Atlantic, having the canister pitching about during firing would be a serious issue. If the missile on launch were free of the container, it pitching would invariably result in a collision between the container and the missile with the resulting exploding missile as it hits the container walls.

Second, how is the LOX produced. You won't be able to store it for a cross-Atlantic voyage. That means you need a LOX plant on the sub or the canister to make it. This in turn requires power and time. It would be hours involved in making LOX and fueling the missile. Substituting storable propellants--solid or liquid--would require a complete redesign of the missile's fuel system and engine.

How is the operations room, and other systems like pumps and the like on this canister powered? There is no indication of how that would occur.

How many crew / technicians does the missile require? Where do they stay during the voyage?

If the crew / technicians are on the sub, how do they gain access to the container to operate it? This could be a very hazardous operation on its own in open ocean.

The devil is always in the details, and this project seems rather short on details...

 

[Orionblamblam]

Woo wooo wooo. Carry on sir. It's people like you who do no research that advance... uh... nothing.

At last it can be told:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pl1m_65aRA

 

[edwest4]

And it's people like you who... uh... gosh... do even worse.

 

[Orionblamblam]

And it's people like you who... uh... gosh... do even worse.

I disagree. Mocking the mockworthy is one of the highest goals to aspire to.

 

[edwest4]

And it's people like you who... uh... gosh... do even worse.

I disagree. Mocking the mockworthy is one of the highest goals to aspire to.

Oh well. To paraphrase, and slightly modify, Groucho Max: "Sir, I would never join any group that would consider having someone like you as a member."

Mockworthy. You made that up, right?

 

[Orionblamblam]

And it's people like you who... uh... gosh... do even worse.

I disagree. Mocking the mockworthy is one of the highest goals to aspire to.

Oh well. To paraphrase, and slightly modify, Groucho Max: "Sir, I would never join any group that would consider having someone like you as a member."

And yet, here you are.

Mockworthy. You made that up, right?

Yes. A permissible and fully cromulent action in the English language.

 

[klem]

The devil is always in the details, and this project seems rather short on details...

By analogy almost all these questions would arise for the Sea Dragon project which was to be launched at sea. And yet for lack of details I do not know how all the resulting problems were to be resolved in 1962.

 

[edwest4]

"cromulent" There you go again.

 

[williamjpellas]

The devil is always in the details, and this project seems rather short on details...

By analogy almost all these questions would arise for the Sea Dragon project which was to be launched at sea. And yet for lack of details I do not know how all the resulting problems were to be resolved in 1962.View attachment 679500

Great point re: Sea Dragon. Here are a couple of videos that provide a lot more information about that particular concept. Well, alright, the second one is a CGI simulation of what a Sea Dragon launch would have looked like, but very cool, nevertheless.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The devil is always in the details, and this project seems rather short on details...

By analogy almost all these questions would arise for the Sea Dragon project which was to be launched at sea. And yet for lack of details I do not know how all the resulting problems were to be resolved in 1962.View attachment 679500

Which is likely why it didn't proceed beyond a concept...

 

[edwest4]

The following reminds me of something.

Golem SLBM Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles

www.globalsecurity.org

 

[klem]

The following reminds me of something.

Golem SLBM Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles

www.globalsecurity.org

Thus the Golem project is almost similar to the American sunrise project posted above #58.

 

[Dilandu]

Thus the Golem project is almost similar to the American sunrise project posted above #58.

There is zero mention about such projects in Soviet archives. So their existence is very doubtful. Most likely, they were brainchild of CIA (which in 1950s was quite prone to speculating too much over unreliable rumors), invented out of the idea "Soviets MUST be doing something with those German submercible missile capsules".

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Thus the Golem project is almost similar to the American sunrise project posted above #58.

There is zero mention about such projects in Soviet archives. So their existence is very doubtful. Most likely, they were brainchild of CIA (which in 1950s was quite prone to speculating too much over unreliable rumors), invented out of the idea "Soviets MUST be doing something with those German submercible missile capsules".

Or the CIA doing a CYA. Well, the Germans had submersible missile launchers, so the Soviets must have them too. We need an extra $100 million in the budget because of this... Better to say they do and they don't when you're not sure than the other way around and get nailed for not saying they have them...

 

[Ivan Culjak]

And that exactly happened... Here is a pointer to the "tons of reports.." Article was published in 2000. by Russian scientist, for nonproliferation.org.

You obviously did not read the article. There is no confirmation of any kind of German nuclear test. Just that Soviet scientists investigated the scale of German nuclear project, and - as well as Americans - overestimated initially its scale.

Uh, some misunderstanding here, the Oleynikov article is not about testing a bomb, it's about building a bomb.. For example, Gustav Hertz as a Jew, wasn't a part of official German nuclear program, but somehow, ended as an expert for a crucial part of Soviet atom programm - a gaseous diffusion plant, which is by the way pretty much right thing because he deserved Nobel prize for this process. So this is something, I think, you and other would find interesting, too. The article is about general German ability to build a bomb, and it has been demonstrated pretty clearly and loudly with lasting historical effect - Soviet bomb actually created a Cold war world order. Another interesting aspect is that the leading German scientist at this "endeavour " pretty much intentionally choose the Soviet side.. But this issue is more suitable for other forum, too.
A research which deals with German nuclear weapon ( not an atomic bomb) actually being built is done by Reiner Karlsch, and this is quite a piece of a research, based on facts and primary sources, but this can't be explained in one sentence, just like the work of Todd Rider And probably not a theme of this thread, too..

 

[Ivan Culjak]

It's not a post on the atomic bomb, it's about V2, and this forum is called a secret project forum...

That thread I linked to veered off into the V2 and other delivery systems for a nuclear weapon, along with some totally insane stuff about a German ICBM and ICBM silos around page 77 and on. It is all relevant to this thread, and I see no reason to repeat all of that a second time when it's already been discussed somewhere else that is readily accessible to board members.

Yeah, ok, but the name of a thread is Prüfstand XII: submarine launched V-2 rockets, we talk here secret projects, and these projects ( in fact most of all projects, en general) were not built, but they are super interesting from technical point of view, isn't it? What I don't like so much are words like insane, crazy,.... it does not belong to this forum, let's talk just technology, but...

 

[Dilandu]

The article is about general German ability to build a bomb, and it has been demonstrated pretty clearly and loudly with lasting historical effect - Soviet bomb actually created a Cold war world order.

One "small" problem: Soviet nuclear project have almost nothing to do with German effort. USSR have (through its spy network) access to American nuclear science, which was far ahead pathetic German efforts. Even the design of Soviet first reactor was clearly influenced by American "Chicago's Pile".

 

[klem]

One "small" problem: Soviet nuclear project have almost nothing to do with German effort. USSR have (through its spy network) access to American nuclear science, which was far ahead pathetic German efforts. Even the design of Soviet first reactor was clearly influenced by American "Chicago's Pile".

Certainly Dilandu on this subject there is a good introduction to the Soviet program in "Steven J. Zaloga-The Kremlin's Nuclear Sword-The Rise and Fall of Russia's Strategic Nuclear Forces, 1945-2000-Smithsonian Institution Press Washington and London 2002.

 

[Ivan Culjak]

The article is about general German ability to build a bomb, and it has been demonstrated pretty clearly and loudly with lasting historical effect - Soviet bomb actually created a Cold war world order.

One "small" problem: Soviet nuclear project have almost nothing to do with German effort. USSR have (through its spy network) access to American nuclear science, which was far ahead pathetic German efforts. Even the design of Soviet first reactor was clearly influenced by American "Chicago's Pile".

Uh, again, the Oleynikov report is about building a bomb. What and why did Beria ask from von Ardenne? Most probably you don't have experience of living in communist regime, but if Beria asked for something, it was matter of life and death, there was no way to escape.
Reactor design is one important thing, and gaseous diffusion plant design, too. Nobody doubt probable American origins, even if design itself was not a secret , from the point of theory, at least. But what German created or decisively helped to create is an industrial effort to build it. Gaseous diffusion plant was built by Soviets but, after a first run it was completely and utterly "kaputt", until Hertz repaired it. And, exactly this industrial effort was something that "original" German effort around Heisenberg was missing - it was basically a scientific research project. Even, though, as Reiner Karlsch book demonstrated, it wasn't the only project existing. One important ( and somehow disturbing) aspect of later Soviet nuclear program has been an enrichment process using centrifuge, a completly German technology. This led to a massive proliferation of nuclear weapons. I think this way of enrichment was titled in some British paper as a " poor man's bomb".
Ok, it may be we talk about different things and from different aspects. For example, it's true that Soviet nuclear program doesn't have a directvconnection with official German project ( because West got them) but it has to do decisevly lot with Germans! At the end, Stalin prizes, a communist equivalent of a Nobel prize, after a sucessful atomic tests were awarded ecactly to those Germans. Some of them choose to stay in Soviet bloc, and some were even allowed to go back in the West... That's an amazing story..

 

[Dilandu]

One important ( and somehow disturbing) aspect of later Soviet nuclear program has been an enrichment process using centrifuge, a completly German technology.

Again no. The idea of using centrifuges was tried during Manhatten project, but the experimental setup have many deficiences, and the leadership decided to concentrate on less efficient, but more reliable gas diffusion. After the war, skepticism about practical application of centrifuge still prevailed in US nuclear technology. USSR, on the other hand, continued to experiment (using German experience also), and achieved better results.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

It's not a post on the atomic bomb, it's about V2, and this forum is called a secret project forum...

That thread I linked to veered off into the V2 and other delivery systems for a nuclear weapon, along with some totally insane stuff about a German ICBM and ICBM silos around page 77 and on. It is all relevant to this thread, and I see no reason to repeat all of that a second time when it's already been discussed somewhere else that is readily accessible to board members.

Yeah, ok, but the name of a thread is Prüfstand XII: submarine launched V-2 rockets, we talk here secret projects, and these projects ( in fact most of all projects, en general) were not built, but they are super interesting from technical point of view, isn't it? What I don't like so much are words like insane, crazy,.... it does not belong to this forum, let's talk just technology, but...

There's a difference between discussing technology that never was and discussing technological fantasies that never even rose to the point of realistic design proposals. Prüfstand XII falls somewhere between the two in that it was clearly a real proposal and at least theoretically might be made to work, but never got beyond some vague concepts of how that might happen.

 

[Ivan Culjak]

It's not a post on the atomic bomb, it's about V2, and this forum is called a secret project forum...

That thread I linked to veered off into the V2 and other delivery systems for a nuclear weapon, along with some totally insane stuff about a German ICBM and ICBM silos around page 77 and on. It is all relevant to this thread, and I see no reason to repeat all of that a second time when it's already been discussed somewhere else that is readily accessible to board members.

Yeah, ok, but the name of a thread is Prüfstand XII: submarine launched V-2 rockets, we talk here secret projects, and these projects ( in fact most of all projects, en general) were not built, but they are super interesting from technical point of view, isn't it? What I don't like so much are words like insane, crazy,.... it does not belong to this forum, let's talk just technology, but...

There's a difference between discussing technology that never was and discussing technological fantasies that never even rose to the point of realistic design proposals. Prüfstand XII falls somewhere between the two in that it was clearly a real proposal and at least theoretically might be made to work, but never got beyond some vague concepts of how

One important ( and somehow disturbing) aspect of later Soviet nuclear program has been an enrichment process using centrifuge, a completly German technology.

Again no. The idea of using centrifuges was tried during Manhatten project, but the experimental setup have many deficiences, and the leadership decided to concentrate on less efficient, but more reliable gas diffusion. After the war, skepticism about practical application of centrifuge still prevailed in US nuclear technology. USSR, on the other hand, continued to experiment (using German experience also), and achieved better results.

Again, true, but taken out of context..

Zippe-type centrifuge - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Zippe-type centrifuge - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

After the scientists were released from Soviet captivity in 1956,[1] Gernot Zippe was surprised to find that engineers in the West were years behind in their centrifuge technology. He was able to reproduce his design at the University of Virginia in the United States, publishing the results, even though the Soviets had confiscated his notes. Zippe left the United States when he was effectively barred from continuing his research

Centrifuge could be tried in Manhattan project, they tried other enrichment technogy beside gaseous diffusion, too. It's a science.
But this technology which worked for Soviets was clearly German, they built it...no doubt about it

 

[T. A. Gardner]

It's not a post on the atomic bomb, it's about V2, and this forum is called a secret project forum...

That thread I linked to veered off into the V2 and other delivery systems for a nuclear weapon, along with some totally insane stuff about a German ICBM and ICBM silos around page 77 and on. It is all relevant to this thread, and I see no reason to repeat all of that a second time when it's already been discussed somewhere else that is readily accessible to board members.

Yeah, ok, but the name of a thread is Prüfstand XII: submarine launched V-2 rockets, we talk here secret projects, and these projects ( in fact most of all projects, en general) were not built, but they are super interesting from technical point of view, isn't it? What I don't like so much are words like insane, crazy,.... it does not belong to this forum, let's talk just technology, but...

There's a difference between discussing technology that never was and discussing technological fantasies that never even rose to the point of realistic design proposals. Prüfstand XII falls somewhere between the two in that it was clearly a real proposal and at least theoretically might be made to work, but never got beyond some vague concepts of how

One important ( and somehow disturbing) aspect of later Soviet nuclear program has been an enrichment process using centrifuge, a completly German technology.

Again no. The idea of using centrifuges was tried during Manhatten project, but the experimental setup have many deficiences, and the leadership decided to concentrate on less efficient, but more reliable gas diffusion. After the war, skepticism about practical application of centrifuge still prevailed in US nuclear technology. USSR, on the other hand, continued to experiment (using German experience also), and achieved better results.

Again, true, but taken out of context..

Zippe-type centrifuge - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Zippe-type centrifuge - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

After the scientists were released from Soviet captivity in 1956,[1] Gernot Zippe was surprised to find that engineers in the West were years behind in their centrifuge technology. He was able to reproduce his design at the University of Virginia in the United States, publishing the results, even though the Soviets had confiscated his notes. Zippe left the United States when he was effectively barred from continuing his research

Centrifuge could be tried in Manhattan project, they tried other enrichment technogy beside gaseous diffusion, too. It's a science.
But this technology which worked for Soviets was clearly German, they built it...no doubt about it

It's more like the German design of Zippe was better than previous designs. That doesn't mean he made some paradigm shift in technology but rather improved an existing one to the point it was economically viable. That also doesn't mean that someone else would have eventually figured it out.

This is really no different from someone inventing a better V8 engine...

 

[Nicknick]

According to the description, it seams that the Zippe centrifuge had a different working principle that the gas centrufuges before, so he invented a new type of gas centrifuges but not the gas centrifuges in generell. Intrestingly he worked for the Nazis, the Soviets, the US and post war Germany...

Patent 701733 Summary - Canadian Patents Database

Canadian Patent Database / Base de données sur les brevets canadiens

brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca

If a V8 engine is much better than its predessesors, there might be some patents involved.

 

[edwest4]

It's not a post on the atomic bomb, it's about V2, and this forum is called a secret project forum...

That thread I linked to veered off into the V2 and other delivery systems for a nuclear weapon, along with some totally insane stuff about a German ICBM and ICBM silos around page 77 and on. It is all relevant to this thread, and I see no reason to repeat all of that a second time when it's already been discussed somewhere else that is readily accessible to board members.

Yeah, ok, but the name of a thread is Prüfstand XII: submarine launched V-2 rockets, we talk here secret projects, and these projects ( in fact most of all projects, en general) were not built, but they are super interesting from technical point of view, isn't it? What I don't like so much are words like insane, crazy,.... it does not belong to this forum, let's talk just technology, but...

There's a difference between discussing technology that never was and discussing technological fantasies that never even rose to the point of realistic design proposals. Prüfstand XII falls somewhere between the two in that it was clearly a real proposal and at least theoretically might be made to work, but never got beyond some vague concepts of how

One important ( and somehow disturbing) aspect of later Soviet nuclear program has been an enrichment process using centrifuge, a completly German technology.

Again no. The idea of using centrifuges was tried during Manhatten project, but the experimental setup have many deficiences, and the leadership decided to concentrate on less efficient, but more reliable gas diffusion. After the war, skepticism about practical application of centrifuge still prevailed in US nuclear technology. USSR, on the other hand, continued to experiment (using German experience also), and achieved better results.

Again, true, but taken out of context..

Zippe-type centrifuge - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Zippe-type centrifuge - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

After the scientists were released from Soviet captivity in 1956,[1] Gernot Zippe was surprised to find that engineers in the West were years behind in their centrifuge technology. He was able to reproduce his design at the University of Virginia in the United States, publishing the results, even though the Soviets had confiscated his notes. Zippe left the United States when he was effectively barred from continuing his research

Centrifuge could be tried in Manhattan project, they tried other enrichment technogy beside gaseous diffusion, too. It's a science.
But this technology which worked for Soviets was clearly German, they built it...no doubt about it

It's more like the German design of Zippe was better than previous designs. That doesn't mean he made some paradigm shift in technology but rather improved an existing one to the point it was economically viable. That also doesn't mean that someone else would have eventually figured it out.

This is really no different from someone inventing a better V8 engine...

Don't trivialize the technology. Gasoline engines are not the same as a means to enrich uranium. A new technology at the time.

 

[Nicknick]

I made clear, that even if there have been gas centrufuges before, Zippe propably didn't just make improvments by optimizing a given design, but invented some more features. Same like in Gasoline engines (which are more complex than centrifuges btw.), just because Nicolaus Otto builded the first four stroke gazoline engines (and two strokes with copression) it doesn't mean, there haven't been new inventions on this topic afterwards. In #103 it was said, that his design just worked better (I try to find out why), this was very likely the case, because he added new ideas into the principle of gas centrifuges.

 

[edwest4]

Gasoline engines use gasoline not uranium. The German contribution to the Soviet atomic program was substantial. In Germany, there were three projects. One run by the Army Weapons Office (HWA), the Reichspost and the SS. The Russians confiscated the laboratory equipment of Manfred von Ardenne (attached to the Reichspost) who would go on to win a Stalin Prize for his contribution. The Germans, who allegedly did very little work, should have been left behind since they knew nothing of value - compared to the Russians or Americans. That is obviously false.

 

[Dilandu]

The Germans, who allegedly did very little work, should have been left behind since they knew nothing of value - compared to the Russians or Americans. That is obviously false.

Incorrect. Despite the fact that they done very little in Germany, they still were quite valuable specialists, who - properly organized and motivated - could be of significant help.

 

[edwest4]

The Germans, who allegedly did very little work, should have been left behind since they knew nothing of value - compared to the Russians or Americans. That is obviously false.

Incorrect. Despite the fact that they done very little in Germany, they still were quite valuable specialists, who - properly organized and motivated - could be of significant help.

Your statement is self serving. The constant mantra is that the Germans did very little work in their atomic program. You can't have it both ways. They either knew very little or they knew a lot more than what is often repeated here.

I don't care how much more organized or motivated you can make them. They can't do anything helpful if they don't know anything helpful.

 

[Nicknick]

I have no idea how much the Germans knewed about nuclear bombs during WW2 (propably not that much and Zippe btw. came from Austria). He and Max Steenbeck (German) developed the first feasable centriifuge in the Sowjet union after the war. at least at this time, some Germans knewed a lot about uran ultracentrifuges which became the major principle for enriching.

Good to know, that gazoline engines rund on gazoline...(so what??)

 

[Hood]

I'm not a global moderator but just a reminder of Rule #2

Posts on alien UFOs, speculative Nazi wunderwaffen/flying saucers/atomic bombs, general conspiracy theories, alien crashes, moon landing denial and the like are specifically discouraged and would be better posted elsewhere.

If it ain't floaty V-2s tugging along behind a U-boot then its not relevant to this thread.

 

[edwest4]

With all due respect... yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

[GTX]

Locking this thread for now to do a clean up of garbage.