Postwar German Experimental tanks

[Goodbaduglyman]

Hi all. I'm looking for information about unsold tanks from Germany from the 50s to the 70s (maybe some MBTs, interesting versions of the Europanzer program tanks or prototypes of the Leopard 1?) If you know interesting vehicles from this period, please send them here!!! Thanks in advance!!!

 

[axlzed3301]

Spähpanzer Ru 251​

The vehicle was based on the Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 tank destroyer by the Henschel company in 1964. The tank was planned to replace the obsolete M41 Walker Bulldog vehicles used by the reconnaissance battalions of the armored divisions in the German Army. The tank never saw mass production, but some technical innovations were applied later in the development of other vehicles. The total number of prototypes built is unknown.
The Spähpanzer Kette was designed to replace the Germany Army’s old American M41 light tanks in the reconnaissance role. Its development began in 1960 and a prototype was completed in 1963. It mounted a Rheinmetall turret armed with the 90mm Bordkanone as used in the Jagdpanzer Kanone.
By the middle of the 1960s the Leopard tank was in production and it was decided that reconnaissance units did not need their own specialist vehicles. The development of the Spähpanzer Kette was dropped without any further vehicles being built and its role was given over to the Leopard. With hindsight, this may have been a hasty move as the wheeled Spähpanzer Luchs was eventually developed to take back this role from the Leopard.

The materials concerning this tank are actually still considered confidential by the Bundeswehr.

 

[Scott Kenny]

By the middle of the 1960s the Leopard tank was in production and it was decided that reconnaissance units did not need their own specialist vehicles. The development of the Spähpanzer Kette was dropped without any further vehicles being built and its role was given over to the Leopard. With hindsight, this may have been a hasty move as the wheeled Spähpanzer Luchs was eventually developed to take back this role from the Leopard.

I mean, the Leo1 was light and pretty fast, it made a good recon tank. The problem was, it's a full blown tank so I can see the Germans having trouble with the recon guys not reporting back when they found trouble and just trying to shoot their way through it. And that's why I suspect that the Luchs was developed, since European recon/cavalry units don't have some of the fighting missions that US cavalry does.

 

[axlzed3301]

I mean, the Leo1 was light and pretty fast, it made a good recon tank. The problem was, it's a full blown tank so I can see the Germans having trouble with the recon guys not reporting back when they found trouble and just trying to shoot their way through it. And that's why I suspect that the Luchs was developed, since European recon/cavalry units don't have some of the fighting missions that US cavalry does.

The French AMX 30 has the same problem ？

 

[Rickshaw]

I mean, the Leo1 was light and pretty fast, it made a good recon tank. The problem was, it's a full blown tank so I can see the Germans having trouble with the recon guys not reporting back when they found trouble and just trying to shoot their way through it. And that's why I suspect that the Luchs was developed, since European recon/cavalry units don't have some of the fighting missions that US cavalry does.

The major difference is that the Leopard I was an MBT pushed into a Recce role because of necessity. The Kette OTOH wouldn't have fitted the US Army's ideas on how to conduct Recce either. The point being that Europeans believe the most important and powerful weapon that the Recce boys have is a pair of binoculars and their armour is used as protection to enable them to survive longer on the battlefield whereas the US Army believes that their Recce units are meant to fight for their knowledge of what the enemy is up to. Personally, I prefer the European idea to the US Army's idea.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The major difference is that the Leopard I was an MBT pushed into a Recce role because of necessity. The Kette OTOH wouldn't have fitted the US Army's ideas on how to conduct Recce either. The point being that Europeans believe the most important and powerful weapon that the Recce boys have is a pair of binoculars and their armour is used as protection to enable them to survive longer on the battlefield whereas the US Army believes that their Recce units are meant to fight for their knowledge of what the enemy is up to. Personally, I prefer the European idea to the US Army's idea.

I may be poorly explaining things.

One of the US recon unit missions is screening. Keeping the other guy's recon from getting information. That is 100% a combat mission.

Also, the Soviet recon unit was expected to basically shoot its way through any opposition, until it couldn't keep going.

 

[axlzed3301]

Leopard Prototyp B
This vehicle is one of the prototypes developed and built under the Kampfpanzer Standard program (which Italy joined in 1958) with the cooperation of Ingenieurbüro Warneke, Rheinstahl Hanomag, Henschel and Rheinmetall. After comprehensive trials, the prototypes of the A group were preferred over other variants, further work on which led to the production of the Leopard 1. In 1960, a total of two prototypes were manufactured.

 

[axlzed3301]

Leopard Prototyp B

 

[axlzed3301]

Prototyp B2

 

[axlzed3301]

In 59, Group A, led by Porsche, presented its design for a promising tank, bearing the factory designation Model 734. A classic-style tank with a welded hull and a cast turret was offered. In the engine compartment, it was proposed to install a Daimler-Benz MB837 diesel engine with 670 horsepower. The tracked undercarriage was supposed to have six road wheels with independent torsion bar suspension on each side. In the tower was planned to install a rifled gun caliber 90 mm. By reducing the thickness of the armor and the dense layout of the units, the combat weight of the tank “734” should not exceed 33-34 tons.

 

[axlzed3301]

A1 - with turret for 90-mm guns

 

[axlzed3301]

A2 - with turret for 105-mm guns

 

[axlzed3301]

The group of developers "B", led by experts from Rheinmetall, has developed a different version of the promising tank. In general, this machine was similar to the Model 734 and other combat vehicles of the time, but differed hydropneumatic suspension, a tower of a different design with a relatively large aft niche, the layout of some units and other features. According to their characteristics, the tanks of groups “A” and “B” were approximately equal.

Leopard Prototyp B
This vehicle is one of the prototypes developed and built under the Kampfpanzer Standard program (which Italy joined in 1958) with the cooperation of Ingenieurbüro Warneke, Rheinstahl Hanomag, Henschel and Rheinmetall. After comprehensive trials, the prototypes of the A group were preferred over other variants, further work on which led to the production of the Leopard 1. In 1960, a total of two prototypes were manufactured.

 

[axlzed3301]

Borgward, the head of the C group, decided to introduce into the new project a lot of bold and original ideas worthy of separate consideration. The proposed tank was supposed to have a non-standard layout and unusual weapons. In front of the hull it was proposed to place four six-cylinder engines with a total power of 1500 hp. Through a set of gearboxes and gearboxes, it was proposed to transfer the torque of the engines to the driving wheels in the rear part of the hull. To do this, along the sides had to go cardan shafts connecting the front and aft transmission units.

As part of the chassis it was proposed to use five twin road wheels with rubber tires. To change the clearance of the car could be equipped with an adjustable hydropneumatic suspension. According to some reports, the Borgward tank could move on the highway without tracks, for which the front and rear pairs of road wheels could be used as steer wheels.

In the middle part of the corps it was proposed to place the fighting compartment, made in the form of a separate capsule with weapons and crew seats. Three tankers were to be located in the stern of the fighting compartment. It was proposed to make their places immobile. In the central part of the fighting compartment, we provided for an original system for installing guns with automatic ammunition supply systems. Unitary 90-mm projectiles were to be located in the cells of the automatic loader, placed at the sides of the crew compartment. To control such weapons, the tank was to receive a set of special equipment, including appropriate sights.

The decision to continue the work on the proposed projects was to be taken in 1959. Orders for the construction of experienced "Standard Tanks" were received by Porsche and Rheinmetall (groups "A" and "B"). Group “C” led by Borgward was left without an order. The project proposed by her was too complicated, and also required a lot of serious modifications, as a result of which it was decided to abandon the construction of an experienced tank. In the further work on the Standardpanzer project from Germany, only two groups of enterprises participated.

 

[Slakrrrrrr]

More photos of Standardpanzer Prototyp B2

 

[Slakrrrrrr]

Spähpanzer Ru 251 mockup

 

[axlzed3301]

Spähpanzer SP I C
In early 50′s, Bundeswehr was shortly considering to arm itself with newly produced modernized Panther tank with upgraded armament and electronics – American tanks however “won the contract” in the end.

After its reformation, the West-German armored forces (the Bundeswehr) were looking for potential recon vehicles. One of these proposals was to actually build a light tank on the Schützenpanzer chassis. The basic idea was that vehicles like the wartime Puma armored car, equipped with powerful weaponry, were quite successful – in order to be successful, a scout tank has to be very small, but capable at the same time of dealing with enemy armor. The SP I.C was the result of the abovementioned concept – in order to mount a turret with a short-recoil 90mm MECAR gun, changes had to be made to the chassis and the suspension. The gun, although sufficiently powerful, was however considered insufficient as a whole, because for all its capabilities, it was no longer possible to upgrade it even further. An autoloading mechanism was also tested in the turret (but rejected). The armor was extremely thin (15mm), but the vehicle was quite light (6,5 tons) and its engine (195hp Hotchkiss-Brandt) gave it quite a good power-to-weight ratio.

The vehicle was developed from 1956 to 1962 (the prototype was built in 1961). After 1962, it was discontinued for the abovementioned reasons, mainly the fact it couldn’t be upgraded further, but also due to some technical problems with the prototype. The prototype is currently located in Koblenz.

 

[XtraSaltee]

Spähpanzer SP I C
In early 50′s, Bundeswehr was shortly considering to arm itself with newly produced modernized Panther tank with upgraded armament and electronics – American tanks however “won the contract” in the end.

After its reformation, the West-German armored forces (the Bundeswehr) were looking for potential recon vehicles. One of these proposals was to actually build a light tank on the Schützenpanzer chassis. The basic idea was that vehicles like the wartime Puma armored car, equipped with powerful weaponry, were quite successful – in order to be successful, a scout tank has to be very small, but capable at the same time of dealing with enemy armor. The SP I.C was the result of the abovementioned concept – in order to mount a turret with a short-recoil 90mm MECAR gun, changes had to be made to the chassis and the suspension. The gun, although sufficiently powerful, was however considered insufficient as a whole, because for all its capabilities, it was no longer possible to upgrade it even further. An autoloading mechanism was also tested in the turret (but rejected). The armor was extremely thin (15mm), but the vehicle was quite light (6,5 tons) and its engine (195hp Hotchkiss-Brandt) gave it quite a good power-to-weight ratio.

The vehicle was developed from 1956 to 1962 (the prototype was built in 1961). After 1962, it was discontinued for the abovementioned reasons, mainly the fact it couldn’t be upgraded further, but also due to some technical problems with the prototype. The prototype is currently located in Koblenz.

Later on, they changed the turret and kept the chassis and made the Sp-11-2 which was used as a light armored vehicle which replaced the Marder and in the reconnaissance role by the Spähpanzer Luchs. he only armament for the SPz 11-2 was the 20 mm Hispano-Suiza 820 L/85 cannon.

 

[Andrei_bt]

Spähpanzer Ru 251 mockup

Thanks