About the project of the cruiser and other unbuilt ones should be in one of the articles from the Okręty które nie podniosły biało czerwonej bandery series, probably in one of the MSIO( Morze Statki i Okręty) issues.
When? I don't know that, certainly after submarines.
But there is no specific date, looking at the fact that cruisers are not a priority now, maybe in a few years we will see it at the current pace (these are my assumptions).
I'm having problems with my computer right now, so I'm taking a break from searching for a while, but if I learn something new, I'll write it.
I heard that there is supposed to be something in WLU( Wielki Leksykon Uzbrojenia) about polish projects submarines, but when I don't know (this is not the same article I wrote about above), and then, among other things, about Polish projects, including cruisers or destroyers, but I don't have specifics because a friend wrote to me.
Project 4176 called Swordfish is a concept of a Polish multi-role frigate presented in 2020 by Remontowa Marine Design.
The parameters are as follows:
- maximum displacement of about 3800 tons
- total length: 120.33 m
- width: 16.00 m
- design draft: 3.80 m
- max speed: +26 knots
- cruising range: 7000 nautical miles
- autonomy: 30 days
Armament:
2x stern 35 mm stealth HD guns
1x 35 mm stealth HD bow gun (the one above)
1x 76 mm stealth HD bow gun (the one below)
4x2 RBS-SSM medium-range missile launchers
2x8 VLS-AAW rocket launchers
2x8 VLS-MM rocket launchers
2x3 324 mm torpedo launchers
8 jammer missile launchers
6x WKM-Bm 12.7 mm
Additionally:
- a helicopter landing pad with a take-off weight of up to 23 t.
- a hangar for a helicopter with a take-off weight of up to 11.5 t and unmanned aerial vehicles.
Crew: 100 sailors (standard) + 44 people.
And from the most important basic data, I guess that would be all.
The case of handing over the American battleships is well known in Poland, it is probably about Virginia-class battleships. Poland was to receive these ships for free, but was to pay for their transfer to the Baltic Sea. It was in 1922. Japanese cruisers for Poland are also well known in Poland, they were offered in 1930, talks lasted a year, no price was given. Documents in this case were found simultaneously in Poland and Japan. As I have the nickname Peter Strasser on discord, and I am Polish, I can say that these two topics are true. From myself I can add that the outbreak of the war destroyed the order for a cruiser with a displacement of 8,000 tons
Do you know any export projects (cruisers / battleships) for Poland? e.g. Ansaldo or Vickers from 1920-1939? Or ships like that offered to Poland
Edit
As for the modified Guepard, it is an offer from Ateliers et Chantiers de Bretagne.
As for the cruisers, I have some information and I can post it.
1. Washington cruiser
History: engineer Aleksander Potyrała presented a beautiful concept of a Washington cruiser armed with nine 203 caliber guns, which was used for novel purposes, the concept was not even developed.
2. Potyrała's design for a 10,000-ton heavy cruiser in 1937.
History: In 1937, engineer Aleksander Potyrała designed a heavy cruiser with a displacement of 10,000 tons.
Displacement:
10,000 tons
Armament:
9 guns 203 mm
8-9x120 universal guns,
2 torpedo tubes, 4 x 533 mm tubes,
Armor:
side,
artillery,
command tower 200mm,
Drive:
4 turbines of 120,000 HP
Speed: 32.0 knots
cost PLN 70 million.
3. Heavy cruiser with a displacement of 10,000 tons
History: In the 1930s, engineer Aleksander Potyrała made design assumptions for 2 heavy cruisers for PLN 90 million / 10 000.9X203 x3
Displacement: 10,000 tons
Armament: 9 guns of 203 mm caliber placed in 3 turrets, i.e. 3x3.
Main armament:
3x3 203 mm - 9 guns of 203 mm
Drive: engine with a capacity of 120,000 hp
4. Project of the Polish crusader engineer Aleksander Potyrała
History: Engineer Aleksander Potyrała was the author of the design of the so-called crusader( in polish krzyżowiec), the size of a heavy cruiser.( is this true Crusader Project)
5. a project of a Polish cruiser
History: In (1938?) a Polish cruiser was designed to be armed with 152 mm guns, the project was by Potyrała. Ultimately, its construction was withdrawn, and there were such plans.
I don't have his silhouette or sketches.
6. Project of a Polish cruiser
History: In the Gdynia shipyard, plans for a Polish (light) cruiser were created, before the war, probably in 1939, but this is my statement in which year it was, I do not have any further information on this subject now.
The Crusader is a special class of ships introduced in Poland, something between large destroyers and light cruisers.
For the uninitiated, I will say that the Krzyżowiec is a literary fiction, the naming for this class of ship was introduced by Ginsbert in the 1930s.
A ship of this classification, which was supposed to be something between a destroyer and a cruiser, was in a naval novel called the Panna Wodna.
In the naval plan of this naval novel that was published in 1932, there were just 4 krzyżowce, 1 aircraft carrier, 3 battleships, a training cruiser, 13 destroyers and others.
However, until the 1920s (in fact, they could still call these ships that way in Poland) in Poland, the krzyżowiec (crusader) was called cruisers because earlier such naming of cruisers actually functioned, and in the quasi marine literature such a name functioned until 1919 until it was replaced with the name cruiser.
It's interesting what curiosities can be found after years.
Illustration of a Polish aircraft carrier in the "Morze" from September 1925.
the title is: ORP w lidze morskiej i rzecznej? "ORP in the sea and river league?" (if I read correctly).
Unfortunately, I do not currently have this release.
Answering above.
there are rather no drawings, although I would have to check the question of specifications when I have access to a computer.
But this is not a serious project, the name was first introduced into literary fiction.
The ship that was there is not real, later this name was in his naval programs (if I remember), one of them was a semi-official program, but it had nothing to do with the plans that were developed in the naval staff / Polish admirals, generally the most important people those who were responsible for the development of the navy.
It's interesting what curiosities can be found after years.
Illustration of a Polish aircraft carrier in the "Morze" from September 1925.
the title is: ORP w lidze morskiej i rzecznej? "ORP in the sea and river league?" (if I read correctly).
Unfortunately, I do not currently have this release. View attachment 705988
Answering above.
there are rather no drawings, although I would have to check the question of specifications when I have access to a computer.
But this is not a serious project, the name was first introduced into literary fiction.
The ship that was there is not real, later this name was in his naval programs (if I remember), one of them was a semi-official program, but it had nothing to do with the plans that were developed in the naval staff / Polish admirals, generally the most important people those who were responsible for the development of the navy.
It's fine to see the imagination of a future warship nearly 100 years ago. And did you just say it's semi-official? Does this have to do with the inspiration for doctrine and specifications of later Grom-class destroyers, that were built to be superior to comtemporary destroyers in armament and speed? In fact they ressemble the role of Tribal destroyer and one even fought together with them.
By semi-official program I mean that the public (newspapers, etc.) considered Ginsbert's program to be official for some time, in fact in Poland they were working on a different program and it had nothing to do with what they were working on.
Because the official maritime program in Poland was the 1936-1942 program, later somewhere in the years 1937-1938, another program was worked on, for the years 1942-1945 (more or less because further work was interrupted by the outbreak of war), before the outbreak of war, as part of the future program, they already had a plan for the given years: 1942, 1943/1944, and 1944/1945 (if I remember, it was for these years that plans to build 3-4 submarines were to be postponed because there was a shortage of money).
the best known are the plans for 1942, which I think I posted here.
If I find a "semi-official" program, I think I have it somewhere, I'll post it.
Allow me to post a chronology of dates for our 8000 ton cruiser (the reconstruction is mine).
- somehow since 1936 Poland has been implementing the maritime program 1936-1942 (since when exactly I won't give it off the top of my head because I don't want to make a mistake).
- somewhere in the meantime, around 1937/1938 (I don't know since when exactly it was worked on, the date is more or less) Poles are working on the next maritime program, after the reduction, the plan for 1942 is accepted for implementation. - On April 28, 1938, the Polish-British treaty was signed, as a reminder, it forbade the construction of cruisers no larger than 8,000 tons of displacement, the caliber limit of the guns is 155 mm. It was to last until December 1942.
- for the years 1943-1944, a cruiser of 8,000 tons was entered, I saw it there for the first time, I posted the plan for those years here. It was written that in 1943-1944 the tonnage of the Polish fleet could reach 50,000 tons, until the outbreak of World War II it was 20,000 tons.
Let me remind you that this cruiser was neither originally in the plan for 1942 nor after its reduction, so it should be reasonably correct.
- the last information is that it was supposed to be ordered in 1940, in a British shipyard, so we are writing about a British project.
Based on this data, I suppose that our mysterious cruiser appeared somewhere around the turn of 1938/1939, generally late, because in 1939 they probably already had this design of the ship (or rather we are dealing with a paper ship because it was not built, rather than one of existing ones), it's possible since they were going to order it a year later.
The only question is whether there was a tender, if so, it was in 1938/1939, and there were not as many offers as in the case of destroyers.
If not, it could have been somewhere in late 1938. But perhaps the design of this ship can be dated back to 1939, because you have to write the requirements, and probably other things, after all, it's not that easy to order a ship.
Above, I have included 2 tables with Colony designs, as a reference material for this cruiser, because these designs are very close to it, and maybe one of them may even be ours.
These are the closest known British 8,000 ton cruiser designs of those years.
designs from 1936 can be rejected, the same ones that are more than 8000 tons, ships from 550 wl and above can also be rejected in my opinion, because the cruiser for Poland would be rather smaller than the British equivalent (you have examples of French destroyer designs for Poland, Polish Guepard comes from 1933, the same Polish Fantasque / Le Hardi, let me remind you that it is a design of the de Loire shipyard, because in the picture I see an inscription under B2: Paris and then you have the year 1933, I can't read the exact date because I don't know French, but in English it's probably October 6).
On this basis, the ships in this table would be:
K23B, K26, K34 or K31 early.
The problem is that the British may have, for example, the data of this ship, but they may not know that Poland was to order a cruiser, but the Poles in the archives may have a drawing of it when it was supposed to be ordered, but they may not have the ship's data, as in the example from table.
The project itself does not have to be one of the Vickers-Armstrong projects, because it can be one of the preliminary projects or another shipyard.
You have my conclusions and thoughts.
I am more and more convinced that this is some kind of ship ala Fiji, time will tell how close I am to the truth, it would be a bit funny if it turned out that this cruiser was a K34, then you could write that I am a prophet or something like that.
I will note, however, that I do not know the Belfast (Town class) and Arethusa projects.
In the latest (by the time of this thread) video of Drachinifiel (about the Casablanca-class), one comment poop up about an polish attempt to acquire either an escort carrier from the RN (what class of ship wasn't mentioned) or an Casablanca from the US. There can this info been found?
In the latest (by the time of this thread) video of Drachinifiel (about the Casablanca-class), one comment poop up about an polish attempt to acquire either an escort carrier from the RN (what class of ship wasn't mentioned) or an Casablanca from the US. There can this info been found?
??
Watched it through twice in case I missed something. I'm not hearing any reference to a transfer to the Polish Navy. He does refer to the proposed transfer of ships to the RN which never went through.
Can you post details of the time in the video where this is said in case I missed it?
??
Watched it through twice in case I missed something. I'm not hearing any reference to a transfer to the Polish Navy. He does refer to the proposed transfer of ships to the RN which never went through.
Can you post details of the time in the video where this is said in case I missed it?
It's a post by someone in the comments section. They also go onto say that the Polish Navy in Exile hoped to receive the Japanese carrier Hosho as War Reparations as an a alternative. Admittedly it's somewhat hard to work from an unsourced comment on the internet, so I have no idea if this is true.
Seems to be a mid-war fantasy of CinC Vice Admiral Jerzy Świrski. I suspect the demand for Hosho was a tongue-in-cheek response to be rejected for a CVE.
Seems Poland's Govt in Exile declared war on Japan on 11 Dec 1941. But the Japanese rejected it! It was 1957 before Polish/Japanese relations were normalised.
Well, you can, if the legitimacy of government declaring war is questioned. And Polish government-in-exile in London was - with no disrespect - of dubious legitimacy.
About rules of engagement... well, I suppose it would be classified as fighting against insurgents. Their military status would not be recognized. Not that it meant much for Japanese anyway...
Project 4176 called Swordfish is a concept of a Polish multi-role frigate presented in 2020 by Remontowa Marine Design.
The parameters are as follows:
- maximum displacement of about 3800 tons
- total length: 120.33 m
- width: 16.00 m
- design draft: 3.80 m
- max speed: +26 knots
- cruising range: 7000 nautical miles
- autonomy: 30 days
Armament:
2x stern 35 mm stealth HD guns
1x 35 mm stealth HD bow gun (the one above)
1x 76 mm stealth HD bow gun (the one below)
4x2 RBS-SSM medium-range missile launchers
2x8 VLS-AAW rocket launchers
2x8 VLS-MM rocket launchers
2x3 324 mm torpedo launchers
8 jammer missile launchers
6x WKM-Bm 12.7 mm
Additionally:
- a helicopter landing pad with a take-off weight of up to 23 t.
- a hangar for a helicopter with a take-off weight of up to 11.5 t and unmanned aerial vehicles.
Crew: 100 sailors (standard) + 44 people.
And from the most important basic data, I guess that would be all. View attachment 703743 View attachment 703744
First of all, I will write that the documents about these ships talk about the continuation of the construction of a series of Grom-class ships, there is no such thing as Hurricane-class destroyers, the correct name for these ships is Grom-class destroyers/improved Grom-class, because there is actually no evidence of how the new destroyers were named, but nevertheless it was customary to call them ORP Huragan and ORP Orkan and they are known under this name, although no documents for such names have been found, even as proposals.
The Hurgan type/Huragan class can be named to distinguish the new destroyers built in Poland from the Grom class.
But it should be remembered that these destroyers were not built according to the plans of the Samuel White shipyard, they were designed in Poland, based on the plans of Grom-class destroyers built in England.
Now I will write about the variants of this destroyer.
There is version A on Table 1, my friend sent it to me in January this year.
The drawing of this destroyer in this version was based on the original drawing of these destroyers called B18 7, dated November 7, 1938.
In this version of the major changes, the destroyer has a rounded superstructure at the front and 4xII 13.2 mm Hotchkiss.
Table 2, version B.
This is also a reconstruction of this destroyer based on drawing B18 7, the difference is that it is a reconstruction of a corrected drawing.
We also have 4xII 13.2 mm here as in variant A, but the shape of the superstructure is different.
Table 3, version C.
The version you see here is a reconstruction of the destroyer based on drawing B18 5.
we have as many as 5xII 13.2 mm Hotchkiss here, although there is also a variant without these Hotchkiss on the aft superstructure, in this reconstruction they are on the aft superstructure. Or at least I think there's a 5 xII here, look near the funnel, right behind that 40 mm Bofors gun.
The last version is on table 4, version D.
This is also a reconstruction from the corrected drawing B18 7, dated March 7, 1939, the latest and little known.
on the superstructure there are 2xII 13, 2 Hotchkiss, and at the funnel there is 1xIV 13.2 mm Hotchkiss, giving up 2 twin 13.2 mm at the stern.
Reconstructions and information about these variants come from Wielki Leksykon Uzbrojenia wrzesień 1939 tom 181 kontrtorpedowce typu Huragan by Maciej Tomaszewski.
I just found this project here: https://archivio.fondazioneansaldo.it/s/1/item/11737
Since I don't know if I can post a drawing of this ship here, I'll leave the link here as a source.
If you learn anything about it, I will update the post or write a second one.
I read the plan M document, I will write about it in more detail another time because there was a lot to discuss.
Regarding the cruiser it says:
"The next order was to be the construction of a medium cruiser with a displacement of over 8,000 tons."
It was also written that in 1939 the tonnage of the Polish fleet was about 20,000 tons, in the years 1940-1941 this tonnage would increase to 27,250 tons, and in the years 1943-1944 the tonnage of the fleet would increase to about 35,000 tons.
I got a new book for Christmas, I've already read it, and I have something new.
In 1956, a naval program was developed which included, among others:
16 destroyers
48 small torpedo boats
24 large torpedo boats
24 large submarine chasers.
According to this plan, the destroyers were to have 4 100 mm guns in 2 twin turrets (2xII), 4 quadruple 45 mm guns, and 4 rocket launchers, specifically those that were being armed with destroyers of other fleets at that time, classic and rocket depth charge launchers, mine tracks, and screens for protection against mines.
According to : Niszczyciele polskiej marynarki wojennej by Witold Koszela page 216.
This data is repeated on other pages in the book, there was also information about superstructures and radars, but what I quoted is based on this book as a source and is more important data.
Case of Polish Gneisenau, although more Polish Deutchland, looking at the parameters.
The first time I posted this drawing was on one of the Facebook groups, my friend posted it yesterday and I asked him what the source of this drawing was.
I know everything there is to know, so I'll tell you about it.
In one of the issues of magazine Przegląd Morski from 1934 there was an article titled Ships of the Future by Benbow.
The author wrote there about the future of, among other things, battleships, he claimed that in the future there will be two varieties of battleships.
The first of them is a ship armed with VIII to X guns with a caliber of 333 to 406 mm, a displacement of 25,000 to 40,000 tons, and a speed of about 30 knots.
The second type is basically a lighter version of a battleship adapted to closed seas and capable of fighting for the maritime freedom of its country and supporting the actions of its own light forces.
This is a warship with a displacement of 10,000 to 20,000 tons, at a speed of 28-30 knots, the armament of such warships is to consist of VI to IX 280-305 mm caliber guns, and the armor, as the author himself wrote, is to be lighter than typical battleships, but still sufficient an equal opponent, and above all to defend against aircraft at low altitudes. (in the Polish case, it is the Deutchland class, although it had a 28 cm gun, so it is difficult to call it a typical cruiser, so here in this comparison it is an exception, or the Scharnhorst class, and Russian battleships, later at that time also a Kirov, but it was a cruiser, my comment)
The battleship discussed here belongs to the second, lighter type of battleship, what you see in the drawing is concept of a lighter version of the battleship that I wrote about above from the article, of course. ( rys.1, is an abbreviation of the word "rysunek" in English, so it can be translated as a drawing or fig.1, although more specifically it is an illustration of such a battleship. My comment.)
I am posting the data below.
Displacement: 15,000(18,000) tons
Length: 182 m
Width: 23.5 m
Depth: 6.1 m
Armament: 9x 280 mm guns (3xIII),
14x 102 mm anti-aircraft guns,
II - 47 mm guns, 2xI
20x heavy machine guns - C.K.M
3 seaplanes: including one catapult
Armor: 40-305 mm
Anti-torpedo protection (bulge) and anti-aircraft deck.
Power plant: 90,000 HP
Speed: 30 knots
Range: 6,500 nautical miles at 12 knots.
Translate by me.
And drawing is here
Probably the author of the article himself is the author of this vision/concept of the warship you see in the drawing.
I posted this drawing because someone might be interested in it, and they can analyze it and discuss it.
Of these, the main guns are 100% German, because the 280 mm guns are triple guns, and there weren't many of them at that time, and probably only the Germans had triple 280 mm guns.
The 47 mm guns may be those used on ORP Bałtyk, as for the 102 mm, they may be British Mk XVI guns based on the Mk XIX, but I don't know if it's too early for them.
Source is here Przegląd Morski NO. 68, 1934 and if anyone wants to read the entire issue, I also give a link https://bibliotekacyfrowa.eu/dlibra/publication/62401/edition/56600?language=pl .
Considering that these are triple guns, I can't think of anything other than German guns, and the Swedish model 1916 guns were twin guns from what I remember, the design 1047 from the Netherlands was later.
As for the 102 mm guns being British, I may be wrong, it depends on what the author knew.
I won't say exactly what machine guns there are here because I don't know what they are here.
This issue was in November 1934.
Turret design is different of gun design and usually have no connection. We don't know the Bofors Export market designs at that time but it is entirely possible they had modern designs ready for production.
For example there were an improved Sverige coastal BB design from the mid 1920's with 50 claibre 28cm guns rather 45 of the original. And 305mm cannons from 1910.
Considering that these are triple guns, I can't think of anything other than German guns, and the Swedish model 1916 guns were twin guns from what I remember, the design 1047 from the Netherlands was later.
As for the 102 mm guns being British, I may be wrong, it depends on what the author knew.
I won't say exactly what machine guns there are here because I don't know what they are here.
This issue was in November 1934.
With all respect, but I suspect that you took the generic speculation about "battleship of the future" for the actual project. Author probably just decided that 11-inch guns are better for some theoretical reasons, not because he actually wanted to use any existing German or Swedish guns. As you himself wrote:
This is a warship with a displacement of 10,000 to 20,000 tons, at a speed of 28-30 knots, the armament of such warships is to consist of VI to IX 280-305 mm caliber guns,
With all respect, but I suspect that you took the generic speculation about "battleship of the future" for the actual project. Author probably just decided that 11-inch guns are better for some theoretical reasons, not because he actually wanted to use any existing German or Swedish guns. As you himself wrote:
I know it's a concept, it's far from a project, I translated the data for this battleship into English.
If this were a project, I don't think they would use German guns, or if they did, Swedish ones.
These were his predictions for the future of battleships.
To be precise, I wrote Polish Gneisenau/Polish Deutschland as a battleship that is an equivalent of such warships so that it can be compared with something, so yes, I wrote it in the context of the equivalent, although the Polish equivalent is a concept.
And above you have explanations about the word drawing, in short, I translated the Polish word into drawing, although in fact, more specifically, we can talk about the illustration of such a battleship as a concept and not a project, because it cannot be considered a project.
Since in the case of Poland it is difficult to look for battleship designs, at least I don't know any, I think you can be satisfied with concepts, as in the case of the battleship I wrote about today, or with some visions of battleships, not counting specifications or data from naval programs.
Now that's a different topic.
Can you tell me what a medium cruiser means, especially in the 1930s?
I mean, can you define it somehow and give examples of such cruisers, or is it the same as a heavy cruiser?
While medium cruiser is a rarely used term and not really defined, to me it represents the few cruisers which have a main armament between 155 and 200mm eg the La Argentina, Krasny Kavkaz and Kirov classes
Now I will write about aircraft carriers.
Before the war, Poland did not design aircraft carriers or plan ships of this class, but this does not mean that it did not have a single aircraft carrier before the war.
But let's start from the beginning.
1. Basically, the entire history of aircraft carriers begins with the Pinsk flotilla.
In 1934, Commander Zajączkowski announced the topics for the competition.
And he was among them kuter lotniskowiec (aircraft carrier cutter) or air transport cutter.
Such a ship was to carry one seaplane with a wingspan of 15 meters, a length of 9 m and a mass of 2,000 kg.
According to the technical assumptions, the ship was to be up to 25 m long, with a draft of up to 0.5 m and a speed of 12 km/h.
According to Zarzycki in NTW 11/1995, this was not implemented because no one undertook to develop it.
2. According to some people, in 1939 Poland was supposed to have a river aircraft carrier.
And this river airport was to be a rebuilt K-4 barge, which was supposed to carry one seaplane.
This information is supposed to come, if I understand correctly, from archival documents that are supposed to confirm the existence of such a unit, a river aircraft carrier, of course.
The next information about our river aircraft carrier will come from Andrzej Olejko Rzeczna Eskadra Lotnicza Flotylli Pińskiej
in the mobilization structure of the flotilla of the said Polish Navy from August 26, 1939, such a ship discussed here is called the pływająca baza lotnicza K-4 (K-4 floating air base).
I admit that I do not currently have this book, but I believe this information here.
Well, this is basically where the reliable information ends, because some say that this ship had its own propulsion, while others say it did not.
If I forgot something, I will add the information later, I am not sure how current this information is today as it comes from years ago.
So there you have it, a summary of the topic of this riverine aircraft carrier.
3. Until 1939, there were no proposed aircraft carriers in official naval programs; these were usually the views of people associated with the navy who presented their naval programs for the expansion of the Polish Navy.
Now that's a different topic.
Can you tell me what a medium cruiser means, especially in the 1930s?
I mean, can you define it somehow and give examples of such cruisers, or is it the same as a heavy cruiser?
While medium cruiser is a rarely used term and not really defined, to me it represents the few cruisers which have a main armament between 155 and 200mm eg the La Argentina, Krasny Kavkaz and Kirov classes
To provide some historical basic. In 1920, Polish troops captured the Red Army steamer "Tatyana", that was used as riverine tender/carrier for a seaplane (it was later scuttled to avoid being re-captured, raised by Red Army, then scuttled again, then raised again by Polish and used as command vessel named "Admiral Serpinek". In 1939 she was scuttled again, raised by Red Army again, and commissioned as "Pripyat". Finally destroyed in 1941, being blown apart to avoid German capture). Red Army actually used a significant number of barges and steamers to carry seaplanes during Civil War. Apparently Polish admirals considered this a good idea also.
"Admiral Serpinek" in Polish service, 1930. Some flying boat behind it.
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