flateric said:
Flyaway said:
There is a logic to this as the B-21 would be part of a existing production run plus it would more survivable than a converted civil aircraft.
Where did you see logic? Do you realise number of staff that should accompany POTUS in flight? Gonna put them in weapons bay? And 747-8 is out of production or what?
AWST starting to look like mix of what-if modelling forum and devianart this time. Would be so-so joke on Fools' Day, but it's still winter around.

I agree with Flateric.
This suggestion could a dictionary definition of the opposite of logic.
Don't want to be unkind but whoever seriously suggested this should be massively embarrassed.
 
Nah, just convert a couple of stealth tankers to AF1 and put the nonessential personnel in Boeings and c17s. ;)
 
flateric said:
Flyaway said:
There is a logic to this as the B-21 would be part of a existing production run plus it would more survivable than a converted civil aircraft.
Where did you see logic? Do you realise number of staff that should accompany POTUS in flight? Gonna put them in weapons bay? And 747-8 is out of production or what?
AWST starting to look like mix of what-if modelling forum and devianart this time. Would be so-so joke on Fools' Day, but it's still winter around.

In that case why did they suggest it?

They'd probably be better off using one of those stealth tanker aircraft the Air force seems keen on developing at the moment.
 
flateric said:
Flyaway said:
There is a logic to this as the B-21 would be part of a existing production run plus it would more survivable than a converted civil aircraft.
Where did you see logic? Do you realise number of staff that should accompany POTUS in flight? Gonna put them in weapons bay? And 747-8 is out of production or what?
AWST starting to look like mix of what-if modelling forum and devianart this time. Would be so-so joke on Fools' Day, but it's still winter around.
I agree with flateric and there is more.

Any B21 derivative would incorporate highly sensitive "survivability" technologies. Anyone would was given the chance to come as close as possible to a F117 or a B2, say at an arm's length, knows that security is so tight no one can touch them. How can you do that with such a diplomatic craft visiting foreign countries? Hmmm...

Also… What is remarkable with any technology, is that it will always "fail" at one point, requiring emergency landing and craft being grounded in some remote, unexpected place. Yes, this happens. Remember Boscombe Down (well, that might have been related to so-called "Pilot Induced Oscillations")…

In light of these two narrow arguments, I still find it very hard to believe the very latest strategic bomber technology derivative, could be turned into Air Force One. Something's not right with AvWeek's story.

A.
 
Triton said:
Presidential Bomber? Report Touts @northropgrumman B-21 For Air Force One

Source:
https://twitter.com/JamesDrewNews/status/830090607594975232
http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/presidential-bomber-report-touts-b-21-air-force-one

This sounds like a joke that got out of hand... Group of aerospace engineers and/or journalists talking about President and someone makes a comment about using the B-21 ("he can be carried in the bomb bay..."), everyone laughs and that is where it should have ended.
 
Considering the current President has chastised Boeing for the cost of the next Air Force 1, could NG be making a bid to take their business away?
 
That's what happens when a domestic industry consolidates into one manufacturer. An Airbus solution seems politically unacceptable even though the aircraft would be built in Mobile, Alabama. I don't foresee Lockheed Martin entering the passenger aviation market despite the concepts developed for NASA. A KC-Z-based solution? Unlikely. So its some flavor of Boeing 747 to replace VC-25.
 
GTX said:
Triton said:
Presidential Bomber? Report Touts @northropgrumman B-21 For Air Force One

Source:
https://twitter.com/JamesDrewNews/status/830090607594975232
http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/presidential-bomber-report-touts-b-21-air-force-one

This sounds like a joke that got out of hand... Group of aerospace engineers and/or journalists talking about President and someone makes a comment about using the B-21 ("he can be carried in the bomb bay..."), everyone laughs and that is where it should have ended.

In the times we live in, I can't tell anymore. Maybe we'll see a press release stating that Stavatti Aerospace has entered the VC-X competition?
 
Triton said:
In the times we live in, I can't tell anymore. Maybe we'll see a press release stating that Stavatti Aerospace has entered the VC-X competition?

Nah...it will be a tweet. ;)
 
Moderators:

Can we move all of the "B-21 for Presidential Aircraft Recapitalization" posts somewhere else?
 
My question is where did they get the image/model of the B-21? I just ask because it appears to have some basic flaws; namely, the inlet and exhaust edges not aligned with the planform edges. They could have at least got that piece of speculation correct.

Besides, everyone knows they would use a B-52 for AF1, not the B-21, since it would have more room. Or, maybe they'll build the B-1R as AF1 so it can be supersonic! No matter which bomber they choose, I'll bet they modify it to land on water and submerge. Maybe it's really just a Transformer masquerading as AF1. Gosh, making sh*t up is fun.
 
I think that this James Drew own reconstruction based on known rendering and [highly questionable] planform view from Spirit Aerosystems PowerPoint.
 
Article now is out of paywall so make your own opinion

Presidential Bomber? Report Touts B-21 For Air Force One
Feb 10, 2017 James Drew | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report


A concept image of the Northrop Grumman B-21 "Presidential Bomber" flying over the Pacific Ocean: James Drew, Aviation Week

A panel of aerospace and defense analysts has proposed ditching the U.S. Air Force’s Boeing 747-8-based Air Force One in favor of the Northrop Grumman B-21 stealth bomber, or a less-costly militarized Boeing 737 fleet.

The group, writing for Wright Williams & Kelly (WWK), a cost management software and consulting company, says in a new report that President Donald Trump’s concerns about the massive cost of modifying two or three end-of-the-line 747-8 commercial airliners into military-grade presidential transports could be significantly reduced by recasting the requirements, which demand four engines and accommodations for an entourage of 70-plus passengers. By taking into account the safety and reliability of modern twin-engine aircraft, the Air Force would have a wide range of alternatives to study, instead of being limited to the Boeing 747-8 or Airbus A380.

In December, Trump blasted the Presidential Aircraft Recapitalization (PAR) program because of its estimated $3.2 billion price tag in a tweet, saying costs were “out of control.” Defense Secretary James Mattis has since ordered a full review of the project and its requirements to find cost savings. The Pentagon’s second look centers on specifications for autonomous operations, aircraft power generation, environmental conditioning, survivability and military and civilian communications capabilities. But what about switching airframes?

Danny Lam, who contributed to the WWK report and is a spokesman on behalf of the group, says the report focused on the B-21 and 737. It does not rule out the Boeing 767, nor foreign airframes built by Airbus, Bombardier or Embraer. Russian and Chinese alternatives were not candidates.

The penny-wise option is a fleet of presidential 737s, since the type has already been adapted for military use at great expense. The 737-700-based C-40 already carries passengers for the U.S. Navy and U.S. Air Force. The 737 has also been converted into the P-8A Poseidon submarine hunter for the Navy, Australia, India, Norway and the UK. It is the basis for Australia, South Korea, and Turkey’s airborne early warning and control aircraft. Boeing has also pitched it as a replacement for the Air Force’s E-8C Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System, EC-130H Compass Call and RC-135 Rivet Joint aircraft.

The CFM56-7B-powered C-40B/C version operated by the Air Force carries 26-32 or 42-111 passengers, depending on the configuration. It has an unrefueled range of 4,500-5,000 nm. It could hop from Joint Base Andrews in Maryland to France, Germany, the UK, South America and North Africa. With a pit-stop at Travis AFB, California, it could reach Hawaii or potentially Japan unrefueled. The P-8A, based on the reinforced 737-800ERX airframe, has less range when fully armed and loaded, but comes equipped with aerial refueling and is practically bristling with military-grade radio antennas and datalinks, many of the same items the 747-8 needs to serve as Air Force One.

“All the things the 747 will need, it’s already been done on the 737,” Lam says. The one-time expense of militarizing the 747 would be wasted on an aircraft that is likely to go out of production because of low sales, he adds. “A 737-based aircraft would probably meet most of their needs and it’ll be cheaper. We’re still going to be flying 737s for at least 30 years down the road.”

The 737 is Boeing’s smallest commercial aircraft, and can access more airports and shorter runways than the hulking 747-8. Many of the same modifications needed to carry the president would be inherent in a future flying command post to replace the Navy Boeing E-6 Mercury, which can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles in the outbreak of a nuclear war. Allies such as Australia, Canada, Germany, Japan and the UK might also want to adopt the type.

Lam says the larger 767-2C, the basis for the Air Force’s new KC-46 Pegasus tanker, could also fit the bill and deserves more analysis. “But it’s the 737’s to lose if we were to go to a civilian aircraft,” he says.

Central to the B-21 proposal is safety. Lan says the proliferation of high-tech surface-to-air missiles to “non-state actors and guerrilla groups” is a significant threat to Air Force One, and a 747-8 is particularly vulnerable.

“The 747 is a fat radar target, about the size of a B-52,” he says. “[The B-21] has stealth built in, it’s nuclear-rated and heavily shielded right off the bat. It’s going to be terribly cramped but man, it would be a survivable platform, especially if operated in twos and threes.”

The exact details of the aircraft are classified, but development started early last year after years of extensive prototyping. Initial deployment is expected in the mid-2020s. The 747-8 is due to replace the Boeing 747-200B-based VC-25 Air Force One fleet “in the 2024 time frame,” the service says.

The report’s analysis of a presidential bomber is based on the unclassified Northrop B-2 Spirit. Lam says the bomber’s internal weapons bay and other compartments could be stripped out and modified to carry a handful of people. The B-21 will almost certainly carry the 20-ft.-long, 30,000-lb. Boeing Massive Ordnance Penetrator, allowing for some estimation of the size available.

Because of their reduced passenger capacity, the 737 and B-21 options would require additional aircraft to carry government and military support staff as well as members of the press. Non-essential personnel would keep some distance from the main presidential aircraft for safety and communicate via directional, encrypted datalink.
Heavy cargo, such as the presidential helicopter and bulletproof limousine, are already hauled separately by military cargo aircraft, specifically the Boeing C-17 Globemaster, Lockheed Martin C-5 Galaxy and C-130 Hercules. Inflight refueling will be provided by the Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker, KC-10 Extender and KC-46.

In terms of U.S. prestige, Lam says the 747 “Jumbo Jet” does not wow crowds like it did when introduced in the 1970s and could soon be extinct, anyway, along with the Airbus A380 “Superjumbo.” The twin VC-25s are the only two passenger-carrying 747-200s still in active service in the U.S. Lam suggested that those existing aircraft be retained as a backup, or for the times that the president wants to make an intercontinental-range trip along a secure flightpath, or to Beijing and Moscow—places where the government does not want to park its most technologically advanced stealth aircraft.

“What image do you want to project? An aircraft that’s going out of production? Or that you’re dealing with a nation that is deadly serious about going to war if you’re not careful,” he says. “Is that the image we want to project? That’s a policy decision. But suppose you’re a little power who wants to take out the president of the U.S. with a surprise attack. I would say the deterrent effect of showing up in a very, very well-protected, heavily-armed aircraft with multiple planes—I’d think twice.”

Air Force Once is operated by the 89th Airlift Wing from Joint Base Andrews. Short-range helicopter flights are provided by Marine Helicopter Squadron One (HMX-1), which operates the Sikorsky VH-3D, VH-60N, Bell-Boeing MV-22B and eventually the VH-92A out of Quantico, Virginia.

The 1980s-vintage VC-25 aircraft will exceed their planned 30-year service life this year, the service says. The service describes presidential airlift as a “no-fail” mission, requiring accommodations for the president to fulfill his or her constitutional duties as commander of the armed forces, head of state and chief executive “worldwide, while airborne.” The aircraft must be capable of operating during a nuclear war, and is hardened against electromagnetic pulses and other interference. An initial set of requirements were released in September 2013 and 21 companies attended an industry day that December. The choice came down to Boeing or Airbus, but Airbus only wanted to provide the aircraft, not compete as a prime contractor. The Air Force went ahead with the 747-8 option in 2015 and released a single-source request for proposals to Boeing late last year. The service has already awarded Boeing more than $170 million for risk-reduction activities, and was due to buy the first early aircraft this year. That award is still pending.

Trump is no stranger to executive travel. The billionaire real estate magnate’s custom-tailored Boeing 757-200, known as “Trump Force One,” featured prominently in the campaign leading up to the November presidential election. The U.S. is also familiar with “Shepherd One,” the unofficial title given to the Pope’s Alitalia-operated Airbus A321 papal airlifter. The aircraft was in Washington in September 2015.

The president of Mexico flies in a specialized Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner operated by the Mexican air force. Australian prime ministers once shuttled around in a leased Boeing Business Jet, but now ride on the Royal Australian Air Force’s Airbus KC-30A Multi-Role Tanker Transport.
 

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Of the various options listed in this report, the only one that makes a lick of sense is considering the 767 instead of the 747, if you're confident enough about ETOPs with the President on board. But of course, the incremental cost savings there is very small. The engineering work is still largely the same; you can maybe shave a few million off the platform costs and fuel, but not a lot in the grand scheme of things.
 
It's just AvWeek reporting on someone else's slightly insane idea...comes off more as a "Hey, can you believe this idea?" than anything.
 
Jeb said:
It's just AvWeek reporting on someone else's slightly insane idea...comes off more as a "Hey, can you believe this idea?" than anything.

A publication like AvWeek is (sadly) expected to produce Click-bait of this type but that doesn't mean we, as a forum, should clamp down on the hook :'(
 
marauder2048 said:
Jeb said:
It's just AvWeek reporting on someone else's slightly insane idea...comes off more as a "Hey, can you believe this idea?" than anything.

A publication like AvWeek is (sadly) expected to produce Click-bait of this type but that doesn't mean we, as a forum, should clamp down on the hook :'(

Who the heck is Wright Williams & Kelly (WWK) and do they influence any decision maker concerning the VC-25 replacement?
 
They're a consulting firm. Looks like the majority of their client base is in semiconductors and electronics with a small segment in aerospace and healthcare. Their speciality seems to be manufacturing process efficiency. Whether this qualifies them to advise the current POTUS on aircraft procurement is left as an exercise for the reader...

Here's their press release, BTW. Just as self-serving as one would expect. They'd like people to "licence" (i.e., buy access to) their report.

 
Feh. This is drivel. The B-21 part of this discussion should never have made it past Joe Anselmo's desk.
 
It already takes a press plane and a backup VC-25A to properly move the President's retinue, comma, and the rest. not to mention the cargo aircraft that carry the limo and support vehicles. Going to something 737 sized, or even a medium twin, would require way too many aircraft to be viable. Airbus knows this, and part of the reason they don't have their pocket legislators pushing for a competition is they know they can't afford to get an A380 line going in the US.

The B-21 mention is just a silly throw-in to get attention.
 
Just one more thing about this stupid study (Stupid with regard to the B-21), IIRC, the first B-21s aren't supposed to be nuclear hardened, are they? I thought that was further down the road?
 
Sundog said:
Just one more thing about this stupid study (Stupid with regard to the B-21), IIRC, the first B-21s aren't supposed to be nuclear hardened, are they? I thought that was further down the road?

I thought it was: nuclear hardened from day one but nuclear certified 2 years after IOC

from LRS-B Details Emerge: Major Testing, Risk Reduction Complete

By Aaron Mehta 11:26 a.m. EDT September 2, 2015 Defense News

Although the bomber will not be nuclear-certified from the get-go, it will have nuclear-strike software and hardware produced on the very first aircraft.
The certification process requires having five identical production models with the same configuration and software, so do not expect nuclear certification to
ome until the service has enough models produced so it can do the nuclear certification without halting other test requirements.
 
As far as the presidential transport is concerned wouldn't the 777 be the only viable US made alternative.
 
sferrin said:
Flyaway said:
As far as the presidential transport is concerned wouldn't the 777 be the only viable US made alternative.

747-8.

But if Trump object to the cost of the 747, I would think the 777 would be a cheaper option if only marginally.
 
marauder2048 said:
Sundog said:
Just one more thing about this stupid study (Stupid with regard to the B-21), IIRC, the first B-21s aren't supposed to be nuclear hardened, are they? I thought that was further down the road?

I thought it was: nuclear hardened from day one but nuclear certified 2 years after IOC

from LRS-B Details Emerge: Major Testing, Risk Reduction Complete

By Aaron Mehta 11:26 a.m. EDT September 2, 2015 Defense News

Although the bomber will not be nuclear-certified from the get-go, it will have nuclear-strike software and hardware produced on the very first aircraft.
The certification process requires having five identical production models with the same configuration and software, so do not expect nuclear certification to
ome until the service has enough models produced so it can do the nuclear certification without halting other test requirements.

Thanks, I wasn't sure if it was going to just be a conventional bomber first (no nuke hardening), as there were so many discussions on what the new bomber would be.
 



"
Last April, Northrop won a $24.8-million contract to build a multi-story, steel-framed office complex in a “high bay production area” in Palmdale, according to a Department of Defense contract notice. That project, which is slated for completion in 2018, refers to the same contract number as that of the coatings facility.
"
 
Sadly none of these news outlets did even cursory research.
The parent contract (F33657-00-L-2054) is a facilities and support contract for the B-2 program. It has been around since at least 2001.

This has little to nothing to do with the B-21.
 
quellish said:
Sadly none of these news outlets did even cursory research.
The parent contract (F33657-00-L-2054) is a facilities and support contract for the B-2 program. It has been around since at least 2001.

This has little to nothing to do with the B-21.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Fake news, Fake news.... (just kidding)

Thanks Q.
 
B-21 Update

—John A. Tirpak

3/3/2017

​The B-21 bomber is “progressing really well,” Global Strike Command chief Gen. Robin Rand told reporters at AWS17. AFGSC now has a contingent in the Pentagon at the Rapid Capabilities Office, which is running the program, he reported. And, so far, it looks like “in the mid-2020s, we’ll have the first one at one of our bases,” with initial operating capability “in the late ‘20s,” said Rand. He reiterated his “strong recommendation” that USAF buy “at least 100” of the bombers and “make sure we get to that [number] by the late ‘30s.” At such a rate, production would be around five per year. Rand said the Air Force has a “great relationship with Northrop Grumman,” which will design and build the bomber, and he gets regular updates on the program’s progress. The company recently started the work of funding and laying out expansion at its Palmdale, Calif., facility to build the bombers, although design work will reportedly be done in Melbourne, Fla.
 
That's some weird math there. 5 per year average would yield 70 planes, if produced from 2026 to 2039, as the article suggests. (it didn't give years but mid 2020s and late 2030s would pretty much mean those given years, even in best case scenario).

To get to 100-ish planes by 2039, one would need something like 7 per year average production run.
 
Well recently it was stated that they will not repeat their error to start production during the EMD phase of the F22, F35 and B21...
 
totoro said:
That's some weird math there. 5 per year average would yield 70 planes, if produced from 2026 to 2039, as the article suggests. (it didn't give years but mid 2020s and late 2030s would pretty much mean those given years, even in best case scenario).

To get to 100-ish planes by 2039, one would need something like 7 per year average production run.

Oh - perhaps it's "news story" math. 2018-2038 = 20 years * 5 per year=100 airframes.

Hopefully the EMD phase continues to go well so the timelines won't slip.
 
5 per year. 7 per year. Pathetic. Needs to be 20 per year. Inventory will never reach 100 because in another 10 years the threats will change, and then congress will start asking why we are throwing away money on old technology, or on a platform to defeat an enemy that doesn't exist anymore.
 

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