Mississippi class armament

[World B4]

The CSA's navy often tried to commission warships by building or buying ships for seemingly civilian use or for a foreign nation. The Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, and Georgia were a class of would-be commerce raiders who were seized by the French government while being built, and sold off to Prussia and Peru where they had illustrious careers. The BAP Union is probably the most famous. I would like to know if any data is available regarding their armament as originally planned by the confederates.

Edit: There was also a class of 2 ironclad turret ships the British confiscated that included a CSS Mississippi, entered service as the HMS Wivern. I have the same question regarding them.

The most famous CSS Mississippi that never served as such would have had room for 20 guns, a staggering amount for a casemate ironclad.

 

[TomS]

This paper looks relevant. If I'm reading right, some combination of 30 pdr guns was envisaged.

France and the Confederate Navy, 1862-1868; an international episode : Bigelow, John, 1817-1911 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

x p., 1 l., 247 pp

archive.org

Edit: Now I'm at my computer, I am attaching a screen shot of the relevant letter (page 9):




Note that there are also some discussions of the two armored rams that the Confederates were trying to buy from France, and these have quite different armament: one forward-firing 300-pdr Armstrong gun (later 2x70 pdrs, as in Stonewall) and a pair of 6-inch rifles in a turret aft. (pg 14-15)

 

[World B4]

Note that there are also some discussions of the two armored rams that the Confederates were trying to buy from France, and these have quite different armament: one forward-firing 300-pdr Armstrong gun (later 2x70 pdrs, as in Stonewall) and a pair of 6-inch rifles in a turret aft. (pg 14-15

I think those were the Stonewall and her sister.

 

[World B4]

In regards to HMS Wivern and her sister, according to the Angus Konstam's Confederate Ironclads (the New Vanguard series) they were earmarked for 7 inch Armstrong rifles. So they got a bit up-gunned in British hands.

 

[World B4]

dit: Now I'm at my computer, I am attaching a screen shot of the relevant letter (page 9):

Thank you! I imagine it would have been the standard French type of the time

30-pounder long gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TomS]

Note that there are also some discussions of the two armored rams that the Confederates were trying to buy from France, and these have quite different armament: one forward-firing 300-pdr Armstrong gun (later 2x70 pdrs, as in Stonewall) and a pair of 6-inch rifles in a turret aft. (pg 14-15

I think those were the Stonewall and her sister.

Maybe? I confess I'm no expert, just a Google savant.

I thought there were also some British rams but maybe those didn't actually get built? You're definitely more aware of all that than I am.

Reading through all of the letters in that archive doc was interesting. It's basically an account by a US diplomat in France documenting all the correspondence they got hold of, which they used to help block the eventual sales.

 

[Jemiba]

In Paul H. Silverstone's "Civil War Navies 1855 - 1883", the armament of the HMS Wivern, ex CSS Mississippi, is given as 4 - 9 inch MLR guns in two twin turrets.
With 20 - 60pdr MLR and 8 - 18 pdr guns credited is a ship, that was variously known as "Santa Maria", "Glasgow", or simply "Frigate N° 61", ordered, too, by the CSN, but never given any name. But that ship had a displacement of 4,770 ts, compared to 2,750 tons for the CSS Mississippi

 

[TomS]

dit: Now I'm at my computer, I am attaching a screen shot of the relevant letter (page 9):

Thank you! I imagine it would have been the standard French type of the time

30-pounder long gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I wondered about that. It seems a bit late for 30pdr smooth bores. M. Voruz, who was contracted to supply the cannon, was apparently making a pattern of rifled gun (somewhat like the Parrott) and a lot of the correspondence refers to shells (as opposed to shot) which might imply a more modern shell-firing gun rather than an old-style shot-firing cannon. I know Union eventually ended up with larger Voruz-pattern rifles (70pdrs) but I wonder if they might have planned 30pdr rifles for the Confederates.

Here is a different (official US govt) site with one of those letters:

Papers Relating to Foreign Affairs, Accompanying the Annual Message of the President to the First Session Thirty-eighth Congress, Part II - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

 

[TomS]

This is a really interesting dissertation (later adapted into a book) about the Laird-built rams.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/77032414.pdf

 

[TomS]

And a bit more info on the original armament plan, this time from the Confederate purchasing agent. "Canon Rayé" is specifically a rifled cannon and "trente" is thirty, so definitely a 30pdr rifled gun.

Official Records of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the Rebellion, Series II

This volume includes the Confederate Navy Department Correspondence with Agents abroad, 1861-1865

www.google.com

Getting from pounds to bore is interesting and confusing, because there does not seem to have been a single convention for converting between the two measures. The US "100-pdr" Parrott was a 6.4-inch bore gun, but so was the Confederate "32-pdr" Brooke. It seems likely that these "30-pdr, 6.4-inch equivalent" guns are exactly the same guns that were on Union. See the video below, which describes a Peruvian Voruz gun in a museum in Lima. It refers to it as one of fifty-six "68-pdr" guns originally manufactured for the CSA by Vorus under a patent from Alexander Blackin(?)*. Some sources also describe them as 70-pound guns.

(Edit: Late thought, perhaps the "trente" refers to kilograms, which would have been the official French measure from around 1840. That would be 68 pounds, more or less.)

* this name is suspect -- I don't speak Spanish, the automatic transcription/translation is not good, and I don't know enough about 1860s guns to recognize the intended designer.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luV7odFkDfE&ab_channel=RASTROSDEGUERRA

 

[TomS]

* this name is suspect -- I don't speak Spanish, the automatic transcription/translation is not good, and I don't know enough about 1860s guns to recognize the intended designer.

Aha. Probably Theophilus Alexander Blakely, a British Army officer who designed a range of guns similar to the more famous Armstrong guns. Due to a dispute with Armstrong about patents, he mainly sold the designs to the CSA. Among them was a 6.4-inch (100-pounder) gun, which goes to show how weird shell weight to bore was in this era.

Blakely rifle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[World B4]

In Paul H. Silverstone's "Civil War Navies 1855 - 1883", the armament of the HMS Wivern, ex CSS Mississippi, is given as 4 - 9 inch MLR guns in two twin turrets.
With 20 - 60pdr MLR and 8 - 18 pdr guns credited is a ship, that was variously known as "Santa Maria", "Glasgow", or simply "Frigate N° 61", ordered, too, by the CSN, but never given any name. But that ship had a displacement of 4,770 ts, compared to 2,750 tons for the CSS Mississippi

I've also wondered what "Santa Maria" would have been armed with, as far as I know she would have had 20 guns in Confederate service, which puts her next to the casemate Mississippi in terms of being large impractical incomplete warships with heavy armament. As far as I know, no Confederate ship had 20 cannons, the CSS United States got the closest with 19.
I've also seen contradictory info regarding the contract cancellation, so I am looking for a primary or good secondary source to tell me if the contract was cancelled by Thompson's, the shipbuilder, or by Lt. North, the confederate agent who contracted for her construction. The answer isn't really a common sense one, as the British were breathing down the necks of shipbuilders who aimed to build warships for the Confederacy, and the Confederates were looking to sell off the ship due to her lack of suitability for their needs.

 

[TomS]

In Paul H. Silverstone's "Civil War Navies 1855 - 1883", the armament of the HMS Wivern, ex CSS Mississippi, is given as 4 - 9 inch MLR guns in two twin turrets.
With 20 - 60pdr MLR and 8 - 18 pdr guns credited is a ship, that was variously known as "Santa Maria", "Glasgow", or simply "Frigate N° 61", ordered, too, by the CSN, but never given any name. But that ship had a displacement of 4,770 ts, compared to 2,750 tons for the CSS Mississippi

I've also wondered what "Santa Maria" would have been armed with, as far as I know she would have had 20 guns in Confederate service, which puts her next to the casemate Mississippi in terms of being large impractical incomplete warships with heavy armament. As far as I know, no Confederate ship had 20 cannons, the CSS United States got the closest with 19.
I've also seen contradictory info regarding the contract cancellation, so I am looking for a primary or good secondary source to tell me if the contract was cancelled by Thompson's, the shipbuilder, or by Lt. North, the confederate agent who contracted for her construction. The answer isn't really a common sense one, as the British were breathing down the necks of shipbuilders who aimed to build warships for the Confederacy, and the Confederates were looking to sell off the ship due to her lack of suitability for their needs.

Answer is probably somewhere in here (follow the link to footnote 30, which lists several primary sources on Santa Maria and her sale).

The Diplomats Who Sank a Fleet | National Archives

www.archives.gov

It looks like the relevant docs have been scanned and digitized but not OCR'd. Here is the index of consular dispatches by city. From this, you can get to the right city (mostly Glasgow or London) and then the relevant years. But unless you're better at reading 19th century handwriting than I am, it may be a challenge to decipher.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/foreign-policy/rg-59-central-1783-1906-consular-despatches-city.pdf

 

[World B4]

Answer

Dude thanks, you’re the goat

 

[World B4]

But unless you're better at reading 19th century handwriting than I am, it may be a challenge to decipher.

I am so not. That shits rough

 

[World B4]

I have 2 more attempted Confederate pirate ships with unknown armament, the attempted KGC schooner J.M. Chapman and steamer Salvador.

J. M. Chapman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Salvador Pirates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Scott Kenny]

I have 2 more attempted Confederate pirate ships with unknown armament, the attempted KGC schooner J.M. Chapman and steamer Salvador.

J. M. Chapman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Salvador Pirates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I imagine a choice of armament for the Salvador would have been made after the ship had been chosen, captured, and examined, and a 90 ton schooner doesn't sound safe to put a cannon on

You could put 12-18pdrs on there. And the armies of the time did like their 12pdrs. (roughly a 3" bore)

 

[Scott Kenny]

I would wonder as to the availability of armament suitable for riverine craft or light artillery at the time, but also to what degree it would even be armed when it planned to leave. Perhaps a bit of a "Liberator pistol" idea?

I mean, naval carriages are completely different, but they're made from wood. So you put that army long 12pdr onto a custom naval carriage.