Messerschmitt P 1073 with nuclear propulsion?

[overscan (PaulMM)]

No more discussion of the "Nazi atomic bomb" in this topic please.

 

[Michel Van]

Back to Topic
it seems they study Nerva type engine for A4 (V2)

i have to say Walter Thiel (*1910-1943†) was Genius, who made the A4 rocket engine working.
he was far ahead of his time,
i mean , Val Cleaver proposed in 1948 the use of Atomic energy for Rocket engine in BIS Article.
"Geheime Kommandosache", is from 16.09.1942

now Deutschen Reichspost was one of the 37 groups in The Third Reich who made nuclear research during the WW2.
Also at Heeresversuchsanstalt Kummersdorf were Thiel worked, were nuclear experiments conducted
The found traces of Plutonium from 1940s (television station ZDF order soil Analyse for TV docu on this topic)

But using nuclear propulsion for P.1073 ?
This would need a working nuclear reactor
and things went not good, lack of material, wrong assumption and competitions between the 37th groups.
The allies found a prototype of one Nuclear reactor, but it never run.
and from this prototype to working lightweight reactor to put in P.1073 like in NB-36H, is long way...

 

[publiusr]

A SSTO using a LOX/LH2 engine and Atlas-style balloon tanks. Almost certainly would have failed... but what we would have learned from the effort.

Instead, paved over A-4's.

Would that have even been built anyway had there been no V-2 flights at all?

No Von Braun…I wonder what Lehrer would have sung about Jack Parsons…

 

[Justo Miranda]

In the words of the great man himself:

Verlaine?

 

[Dilandu]

But using nuclear propulsion for P.1073 ?
This would need a working nuclear reactor

They wouldn't need a working reactor to tell their half-educated Nazi superiors "oh, how cool it would be to have an atomic engine on warplane, surely you understood how incredibly important our work is".

 

[Hood]

PoW testimony is always suspect.
You have to take all this stuff with a pinch of salt, it could be a misunderstanding or blatant misinformation or just making stuff up.
For example:

British Royal Marine PoW Guy Griffiths cooked this up to fool the Germans...



German intel not much better...
Does this look like a T-34?


German intel on a new American tank.... hmm its a T-60 dumkopf.


More Allied intel on new German tanks..... Adolf Hitler Panzer, snappy name...


CIA Report on a new Soviet tank destroyer. Hmmm I don't think so...


More CIA fantasies... the Za Rodina and Stalingrad tanks (more cool snappy names)


Judging by some of the analysis by some of the members here all those projects must be true... (spoiler, no its BS).

 

[novum]

Hi there,

seems I started a debate here

I think its quite true what you say that many things were made up by German scientists, just to get hired.

However, if you look at the Osenberg archive, whose list was utilized to identify German scientists for project paperclip, you realize that the scientists working on nuclear science were not very view. This is one page of the facilities in charge of studies in nuclear energy from the Osenberg archive:



there are 27! pages like that. Huge facilities like I.G. Farben Oppau were in charge of this:



One suggestion for efficient Uran-enrichment came from Heinz Ewald in 1942 of the Kaiser-Wilhelm Institut fur Chemie. Manfred von Ardenne, who's inventions were very welcome to US scientists after the war, helped to build a device after that concept in 1943 at Miersdorf.

So there are many unknowns and it is quite some fun to research in that field. I am unbeliever when it comes to devices like the infamous "Glocke" or the device of Viktor Schauberger called "Repulsator", since I studied the CIC reports of both Sporrenberg and Schauberger.

However, if there is nothing to it, tell my why reels like this one are still classified:



Kind regards,
Manuel

 

[williamjpellas]

It is indeed best to take "POW testimony" with a grain of salt. What I posted previously in this thread were Allied intelligence reports and German bureaucratic memos, not "POW testimony". However, information from captured enemy personnel is obviously sometimes accurate. What is clear on this site is that there are a number of people who are never going to concede a nanometer no matter what. They will cling to what they think they know unto death and beyond, no matter how much documentation and other evidence is demonstrated, and regardless of the provenance and consistency of that evidence. You know who you are, so here's to all of you.

 

[Orionblamblam]

tell my why reels like this one are still classified:

Because they deal with atomic weaponry, even if only *very* minimally. In the late 90's I was denied release of a NASA report on Nova through FOIA because, and I quote, "It has drawings of rockets in it."

 

[williamjpellas]

Regarding NARA files concerning the kriegsmarine, nearly all documents that have anything to do with nuclear R&D remain classified and totally off limits to the public as of 2024. These include almost everything NARA has on the German Navy physicist Otto Haxel, and his colleague Pascual Jordan is nearly as much of a ghost as Haxel is. For that matter, almost half of Samuel Goudsmit's own files are likewise still secret. Numerous similar files in UK archives are likewise kept from view by the Official Secrets Act. These are just a few examples of a very curious phenomenon, ie, that these and so many other papers which describe the total nothingburger that was the German nuclear program continue to be inaccessible to researchers going on a century after the end of WWII.

 

[williamjpellas]

The USAF considered nuclear propulsion for aircraft in the early postwar years, and a truly terrifying variant of this concept was being developed for the Pluto robot bomber Doomsday weapon. To this day I don't think I have ever seen anything as disturbing as this was, even just on the drawing board.

https://nnss.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/DOENV_763.pdf

 

[edwest4]

In my opinion, the German nuclear scientists lacked the quantum faith (a “Jewish” science) and the courage to tell the Führer to abandon the manufacture of the V-2 missiles because they had something better... that maybe it could work. What could the Germans have done with two or three van-sized nuclear bombs? ... how to drop them over London or how to approach New York in a submarine? And if they had finally made it... Would they have gotten, the surrender of the Allies or a rain of anthrax? The A-bomb did not have the destructive power of a full fleet of B-29s led by Le May.

You are doing nothing more than quoting the "common stories." These stories are just repeated over and over. They are not factual.

 

[edwest4]

In May 1946, in the face of budget cutbacks to the U.S. armed services after the successful conclusion of the war, the USAAF started the NEPA program, or Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft .

 

[novum]

In May 1946, in the face of budget cutbacks to the U.S. armed services after the successful conclusion of the war, the USAAF started the NEPA program, or Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft .

Yes, I read of it. Besides the race into space, was the race for being first to have nuclear power for propulsion. Fairchild was playing a big part here.

Interestingly Manfred von Ardenne created then this propulsion system:

 

[williamjpellas]

Yes, I read of it. Besides the race into space, was the race for being first to have nuclear power for propulsion. Fairchild was playing a big part here.

Interestingly Manfred von Ardenne created then this propulsion system:

View attachment 723452

Yes, another stupid and unworkable concept from the obviously deficient "B Team" of wartime German nuclear research. Got it.

 

[Prophet141]

...and in the process erased the more forward-looking native US program in favor of his own more conservative V-2-tech-based program.

Unrelated to the topic at hand, but where can I read more about this more ambitious US effort? Thanks.

 

[kaiserd]

Continued classification of nuclear related nuclear material is hardly surprising given;
1) they hardly want to give DIY enthusiasts/ prospective terrorists/ nation states seeking to develop nuclear weapons any potential help in doing so.
2) they hardly want to give the same potential readership any potential tips re: building “dirty bombs” (given the, in relative terms to the US joint with UK etc program, undeveloped nature of the German program foreseeable that there will be content in this “dirty bomb” area.
3) likely that some relevant individuals in these files were subsequently employed in the US, UK etc. No rush to cause self-embarrassment.
4) general administrative inertia. Who the hell wants to spend money on this or be the sad-sack stuck actually doing it?

As for the actual subject of the topic the combined technical and scientific ingenuity of all the actual nuclear powers have in the last approx 80 years not been able to make a practical successful nuclear powered aircraft. Anyone claiming (at the time or now) that Nazi Germany had the slightest notion of how to do so or had even the remotest ability to do so was or is either completely unconnected to reality or on the make.

The document above appear to give more insight on the fog and paranoia of war and around nuclear weapons (and potentially of those that seek to exploit this for their own limited personal advantage) than anything actually to do with actual aircraft propulsion.

I’ve said this before on other related discussions; many of us are open to suggestions that it is possible that Nazi Germany could have been further along in some limited aspects of nuclear-related technology than is/ was generally recognized and acknowledged, and that this could have been obscured by the nature of Nazi German nuclear program, Nazi Germany’s collapse and the post-war context. You never know and there is some potential scope for this. However on this and related topics some seem deeply determined to make 2 plus 2 equal 222 and I remain deeply suspicious of the motivation and world-view fuelling such incredible claims.

 

[Orionblamblam]

In May 1946, in the face of budget cutbacks to the U.S. armed services after the successful conclusion of the war, the USAAF started the NEPA program, or Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft .

And in a decade and a half of work, no flight-worthy nuclear engines were built, much less flown. The idea that the Germans had even a crude idea of the engineering involved is ludicrous.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Unrelated to the topic at hand, but where can I read more about this more ambitious US effort? Thanks.

Oddly, there doesn't seem to be a good thread on that here. Here are some links to basic info:


http://www.astronautix.com/h/hatv.html
http://www.astronautix.com/d/douglashatv.html
http://www.astronautix.com/m/martinhatv.html
http://www.astronautix.com/n/naahatv.html

 

[Orionblamblam]

these and so many other papers which describe the total nothingburger that was the German nuclear program continue to be inaccessible to researchers going on a century after the end of WWII.

Declassification often requires that the works be gone over by subject matter experts. So you'd need to have ancient documents processed at great expense by nuclear weapons experts who are also fluent in German, and who have nothing better to do with their time.

We hardly have any nuclear weaponry subject matter experts *at* *all* anymore.

 

[edwest4]

And in a decade and a half of work, no flight-worthy nuclear engines were built, much less flown. The idea that the Germans had even a crude idea of the engineering involved is ludicrous.

Sigh. Keep it up. Meanwhile, actual research continues. It might interest you to know that NARA releases a new batch of declassified documents every 3 months, but true to form, the subject headings are so vague, you don't know what's there. I know a few people who have hired professionals to do in-person searches.

 

[edwest4]

Declassification often requires that the works be gone over by subject matter experts. So you'd need to have ancient documents processed at great expense by nuclear weapons experts who are also fluent in German, and who have nothing better to do with their time.

We hardly have any nuclear weaponry subject matter experts *at* *all* anymore.

'They said it couldn't be done so we didn't do it.'

Uh huh.

 

[edwest4]

Yes, I read of it. Besides the race into space, was the race for being first to have nuclear power for propulsion. Fairchild was playing a big part here.

Interestingly Manfred von Ardenne created then this propulsion system:

View attachment 723452

But that just can't be! It can't! It musn't! I decree that it can't be discussed - EVAR !!!



Thank you. Really.

 

[williamjpellas]

As for the actual subject of the topic the combined technical and scientific ingenuity of all the actual nuclear powers have in the last approx 80 years not been able to make a practical successful nuclear powered aircraft. Anyone claiming (at the time or now) that Nazi Germany had the slightest notion of how to do so or had even the remotest ability to do so was or is either completely unconnected to reality or on the make.

I would like to see the archival research and supporting documentation you have which corroborates this statement. Thank you.

 

[williamjpellas]

Declassification often requires that the works be gone over by subject matter experts. So you'd need to have ancient documents processed at great expense by nuclear weapons experts who are also fluent in German, and who have nothing better to do with their time.

We hardly have any nuclear weaponry subject matter experts *at* *all* anymore.

Hmmm. You mean, someone like a well known former MIT multidiscipline scientist and ex-US Navy physicist who is fluent in technical "High German"? Somebody like that? Or somebody else?

Dr. Todd Rider

 

[Orionblamblam]

Sigh. Keep it up.

Yes, I'll keep debunking nonsense and mocking those who insta-believe fantastical tales based on rumors and wishful thinking.

To the subject of this thread: a cheaply made jet fighter, cobbled together from plywood and sheet aluminum and second rate epoxy by overworked pissed-off slave labor was to be driven to supersonic speeds by an atomic engine made by a country that didn't know how to make a basic reactor? That's not just unlikely, that's delusionally stupid.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Hmmm. You mean, someone like a well known former MIT multidiscipline scientist and ex-US Navy physicist who is fluent in technical "High German"? Somebody like that? Or somebody else?

What does this guy have to do with nuclear weapons design? His specialty is viruses. Does he have a security clearance?

Killing sickness: is DRACO a doomsday device for viruses?

Humankind has battled viruses virtually from the beginning. Take just one example: Variola major, the smallpox virus. Its telltale pocks mark the mummified body of Pharaoh Ramses V, dead now over...

www.theverge.com

 

[edwest4]

Yes, I'll keep debunking nonsense and mocking those who insta-believe fantastical tales based on rumors and wishful thinking.

To the subject of this thread: a cheaply made jet fighter, cobbled together from plywood and sheet aluminum and second rate epoxy by overworked pissed-off slave labor was to be driven to supersonic speeds by an atomic engine made by a country that didn't know how to make a basic reactor? That's not just unlikely, that's delusionally stupid.

"insta-believe"? Do you really, really think that's what's going on? Really? William Pellas puts up documents and their archive locations and that counts - for you? Care to contact NARA and tell them NOT to believe in any declassified documents that cover the verboten subjects?

Slave labor? Please avoid making very large assumptions. Included in the documents I've seen are instructions that only Germans who are not among those counted as slave labor can work on specific projects. The security situation in Germany at the time was such that it required a pass to go from one town to the next. Please stop with your patented - crazy, delusional, and whatever else I have to say stuff in order to avoid talking about certain things routine

 

[novum]

Yes, I'll keep debunking nonsense and mocking those who insta-believe fantastical tales based on rumors and wishful thinking.

To the subject of this thread: a cheaply made jet fighter, cobbled together from plywood and sheet aluminum and second rate epoxy by overworked pissed-off slave labor was to be driven to supersonic speeds by an atomic engine made by a country that didn't know how to make a basic reactor? That's not just unlikely, that's delusionally stupid.

I don't believe, that if there was such a concept, it would have looked like that too. But there might have very well been some effort of the Germans into that direction, however it looked like in detail.

 

[kaiserd]

As for the actual subject of the topic the combined technical and scientific ingenuity of all the actual nuclear powers have in the last approx 80 years not been able to make a practical successful nuclear powered aircraft. Anyone claiming (at the time or now) that Nazi Germany had the slightest notion of how to do so or had even the remotest ability to do so was or is either completely unconnected to reality or on the make.

I would like to see the archival research and supporting documentation you have which corroborates this statement. Thank you.

So where are all those nuclear powered aircraft then? Why couldn’t the US or USSR, or anyone else build practical nuclear powered aircraft if Nazi Germany had largely figured it out in 1945? Particularly as they had access to Nazi Germany’s supposedly superior technology and technological know how to work from?

You need to prove your incredible (some might say unbelievable) proposition. I don’t need to disprove it (how would I even do so?).

 

[edwest4]

What does this guy have to do with nuclear weapons design? His specialty is viruses. Does he have a security clearance?

Killing sickness: is DRACO a doomsday device for viruses?

Humankind has battled viruses virtually from the beginning. Take just one example: Variola major, the smallpox virus. Its telltale pocks mark the mummified body of Pharaoh Ramses V, dead now over...

www.theverge.com

Before the war, Manfred von Ardenne developed the world's first scanning transmission electron microscope (1938), with an electron-beam diameter on target of ∼10 nm. His first image was a zinc oxide crystal at 8,000× magnification.

So stop with the attempts at deflection please.

 

[Dilandu]

Before the war, Manfred von Ardenne developed the world's first scanning transmission electron microscope (1938), with an electron-beam diameter on target of ∼10 nm. His first image was a zinc oxide crystal at 8,000× magnification.

Which he himself considered largerly a failure, because it gave worse results than cotemporary transmission electron microscopes.

 

[Dilandu]

What does this guy have to do with nuclear weapons design? His specialty is viruses. Does he have a security clearance?

Also I should point that it's impossible to kill viruses. They aren't alive in first place. You can't kill something that never lived.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Before the war, Manfred von Ardenne developed the world's first scanning transmission electron microscope (1938),

So?

 

[edwest4]

Which he himself considered largerly a failure, because it gave worse results than cotemporary transmission electron microscopes.

I have an original copy of a German magazine with his machine on the cover. It has a Siemens name plate at the base. Inside this magazine are various photos taken with this device. After the war, he would build a desktop model for the Soviets.

 

[edwest4]

So?

Stop with the disflection, OK?

 

[Dilandu]

This secret patent was applied for on the 09.10.1941. How about that?

How about what?

 

[Dilandu]

I have an original copy of a German magazine with his machine on the cover. It has a Siemens name plate at the base. Inside this magazine are various photos taken with this device. After the war, he would build a desktop model for the Soviets.

Sigh. No. You are mixing different machines. The von Ardenne scanning electron microscope wasn't useful - it have worse resolution than standard, non-scanning transition electron microscopes. Von Ardenne considered it a dead end and did not return to it. The tabletop electron microscope he invented for USSR was of non-scanning transition type.

 

[Dilandu]

Stop with the disflection, OK?

Then stop with your cryptic hints and vague allusions. Frankly, we are quite fed up with your constant insistence that bunch of some dubious documents - some of which are pretty clear fakes, for Holy Kitten's sake! - indicates that Nazi Germany somehow reached the level of nuclear technology nobody else could repeat even eighty years after! For Holy Kitten's sake, man, you are talking about NAZI! The ones who does not understood scientific method. The ones, who were extremely clumsy in anything electronic! The ones, who could not made a decent medium TANK during the whole war, with their last machines being shoddy versions of early 1930s Pz.IV.

This just doesn't mix together; the reality that Nazi Germany was pretty clumsy and incompetent in engineering, and the myth that they somehow made advances in nuclear physics greater than anyone else, despite never spending even a tiny fraction of resources Americans and Soviets spent on their nuclear projects.

 

[novum]

Sigh. No. You are mixing different machines. The von Ardenne scanning electron microscope wasn't useful - it have worse resolution than standard, non-scanning transition electron microscopes. Von Ardenne considered it a dead end and did not return to it. The tabletop electron microscope he invented for USSR was of non-scanning transition type.

Its quite easy to mix different machines, since von Ardenne applied for about 140 patents on electron microscopes