MBDA' Brimstone

TomS said:
Yeah, the three-round salvo is a good clue, isn't it? Good find.
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Think the cover is just to provide some protection from the elements and possibly allow it to hide in plain site a little, rather than make it a priority target. Sensible move if thats the case.
 
timmymagic said:
TomS said:
Yeah, the three-round salvo is a good clue, isn't it? Good find.
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Think the cover is just to provide some protection from the elements and possibly allow it to hide in plain site a little, rather than make it a priority target. Sensible move if thats the case.
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Agreed. Visually, this looks like a cargo truck, so not at the top of the priority hit list.

Same as how the Israeli Spike NLOS launcher was mocked up to look like a regular gun tank. Not going to be a priority target mixed in with a column of armor miles from the front.
 
TomS said:
Same as how the Israeli Spike NLOS launcher was mocked up to look like a regular gun tank. Not going to be a priority target mixed in with a column of armor miles from the front.
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It's something Think Defence bangs on about a lot (rightfully) make everything look like an ISO container...hide in plain sight. The South African Valkiri MLRS was also designed to look like a standard South African Army Samil truck...

en.wikipedia.org

Valkiri - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
TomS said:
sferrin said:
A damn shame that in their infinite wisdom they decided not to put it on LCS
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Longbow Hellfire isn't that much different in terms of functionality.
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I know. I thought I read at some point that, after a very successful demonstration program, they decided not to do anything with it. Looks like they're at least buying a token number.

seapowermagazine.org

Navy Orders Two Hellfire SSMM Systems for LCS - Seapower

ARLINGTON, Va. — The U.S. Navy has ordered two more Surface-to-Surface Missile Modules (SSMMs) for integration into the Surface Warfare Mission Package of the littoral combat ships, bringing to four the number of SSMMs on order. The Naval Sea Systems...
seapowermagazine.org seapowermagazine.org
 
timmymagic said:
3YImPTE.jpg
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From that it looks like the missile has much more range potential if the flight profile is optimised a bit more.
 
Forest Green said:
From that it looks like the missile has much more range potential if the flight profile is optimised a bit more.
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One of the restrictions in Brimstone 1 was available power for the MMW.
Thats been corrected in Brimstone 2 and 3. For those you're looking at 30km+ from ground launch for Brimstone 2 and close to 40km for Brimstone 3.
 
Incidentally it appears that the 'captured' missile was not in fact captured at all...

It was originally posted by Ukrainian's just as a pic of Brimstone on the ground, it was photoshopped by Russian Telegram channels (hence the weird anomaly in the mid section from removing the Ukrainian watermark that looked like a dint) and claimed to have been found after failing to hit anything...despite the fact it hasn't been fired...
 
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timmymagic said:
Forest Green said:
From that it looks like the missile has much more range potential if the flight profile is optimised a bit more.
Click to expand...
One of the restrictions in Brimstone 1 was available power for the MMW.
Thats been corrected in Brimstone 2 and 3. For those you're looking at 30km+ from ground launch for Brimstone 2 and close to 40km for Brimstone 3.
Click to expand...
How does Brimstone have that much more range than Hellfire MMW? They're the virtually the same size. weight, and OML.
 
sferrin said:
timmymagic said:
Forest Green said:
From that it looks like the missile has much more range potential if the flight profile is optimised a bit more.
Click to expand...
One of the restrictions in Brimstone 1 was available power for the MMW.
Thats been corrected in Brimstone 2 and 3. For those you're looking at 30km+ from ground launch for Brimstone 2 and close to 40km for Brimstone 3.
Click to expand...
How does Brimstone have that much more range than Hellfire MMW? They're the virtually the same size. weight, and OML.
Click to expand...
Maybe Brimstone 3 have turbojet engine like Spear?
 
Ronny said:
sferrin said:
timmymagic said:
Forest Green said:
From that it looks like the missile has much more range potential if the flight profile is optimised a bit more.
Click to expand...
One of the restrictions in Brimstone 1 was available power for the MMW.
Thats been corrected in Brimstone 2 and 3. For those you're looking at 30km+ from ground launch for Brimstone 2 and close to 40km for Brimstone 3.
Click to expand...
How does Brimstone have that much more range than Hellfire MMW? They're the virtually the same size. weight, and OML.
Click to expand...
Maybe Brimstone 3 have turbojet engine like Spear?
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SPEAR 3 does, Brimstone 3 does not. I assume most of the range boost is from flying a highly lofted trajectory.

MBDA conducts first Brimstone 3 firing | Press Release | MBDA

The Brimstone 3 ultra-high precision missile system has successfully achieved a major milestone by completing its first firing trial at the Vidsel Trials range in Sweden. Whilst enduring extreme weather conditions with temperatures below -30°C, the missile was surface launched against a pick-up...
www.mbda-systems.com www.mbda-systems.com
 
sferrin said:
How does Brimstone have that much more range than Hellfire MMW? They're the virtually the same size. weight, and OML.
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Different propulsion system. SPEAR Cap 3 has a turbojet and should be good for 70-80nm.
 
TomS said:
SPEAR 3 does, Brimstone 3 does not. I assume most of the range boost is from flying a highly lofted trajectory.
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And a newer rocket motor. One of the issues that JAGM has in comparison is that it re-uses the older Hellfire motor.

Forest Green said:
Different propulsion system. SPEAR Cap 3 has a turbojet and should be good for 70-80nm.
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MBDA Spear should be good for around 120nm. Spear-EW will get out to c250-300nm.
 
TomS said:
Ronny said:
sferrin said:
timmymagic said:
Forest Green said:
From that it looks like the missile has much more range potential if the flight profile is optimised a bit more.
Click to expand...
One of the restrictions in Brimstone 1 was available power for the MMW.
Thats been corrected in Brimstone 2 and 3. For those you're looking at 30km+ from ground launch for Brimstone 2 and close to 40km for Brimstone 3.
Click to expand...
How does Brimstone have that much more range than Hellfire MMW? They're the virtually the same size. weight, and OML.
Click to expand...
Maybe Brimstone 3 have turbojet engine like Spear?
Click to expand...

SPEAR 3 does, Brimstone 3 does not. I assume most of the range boost is from flying a highly lofted trajectory.

MBDA conducts first Brimstone 3 firing | Press Release | MBDA

The Brimstone 3 ultra-high precision missile system has successfully achieved a major milestone by completing its first firing trial at the Vidsel Trials range in Sweden. Whilst enduring extreme weather conditions with temperatures below -30°C, the missile was surface launched against a pick-up...
www.mbda-systems.com www.mbda-systems.com
Click to expand...

Forest Green said:
sferrin said:
How does Brimstone have that much more range than Hellfire MMW? They're the virtually the same size. weight, and OML.
Click to expand...
Different propulsion system. SPEAR Cap 3 has a turbojet and should be good for 70-80nm.
Click to expand...
As has already been pointed out we're talking about Brimstone not Spear.
 
timmymagic said:
TomS said:
SPEAR 3 does, Brimstone 3 does not. I assume most of the range boost is from flying a highly lofted trajectory.
Click to expand...
And a newer rocket motor. One of the issues that JAGM has in comparison is that it re-uses the older Hellfire motor.

Forest Green said:
Different propulsion system. SPEAR Cap 3 has a turbojet and should be good for 70-80nm.
Click to expand...
MBDA Spear should be good for around 120nm. Spear-EW will get out to c250-300nm.
Click to expand...
What's the difference between the Hellfire/JAGM motor and the Brimstone motor?
 
sferrin said:
What's the difference between the Hellfire/JAGM motor and the Brimstone motor?
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Couldn't tell you, I just remember reading it somewhere. Hellfire - Thiokol motor, Brimstone - ROXEL motor. At least Brimstone II uses ROXEL anyway, not sure about I.
 
Confirmed its the trials frame. Another test, 2 missiles this time, but also another launch with 3 missiles on the frame, with target impact....looks like they'll be using it over land...

What we can't see is if there is another frame alongside the other, there is a sheet of metal, presumably to protect against efflux alongside the launcher rack. I think its just 1 rack on the load bed but there could be space for 2.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1525909891973521409
View: https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1525909891973521409
 
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sferrin said:
What's the difference between the Hellfire/JAGM motor and the Brimstone motor?
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I suppose different solid-propellant formulation and different propellant-grain so different burn profile.
 
Forest Green said:
timmymagic said:
MBDA Spear should be good for around 120nm. Spear-EW will get out to c250-300nm.
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120nm? Any link for that? I know they said they'd overshot their initial aims considerably.
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Bit of deduction. But I think it stacks up...UK MoD as ever is very cagey about range figures (you should see how many times they've changed the range of Storm Shadow on the RAF's own website..)

Both Spear and Stormbreaker are pretty much the same size and shape as each other. They're near identical. Thats partly driven by the F-35 weapons bay. There are precious few figures on Spear performance publically available...however the US, god bless them, is far more forthcoming with SDB2 Stormbreaker figures, so you can take some figures with a degree of safety from there. Even then the US might be underscoring some aspects...

SDB2 reaches out to a maximum (that the US has revealed, and bear in mind they might be underscoring it) of 70 miles using Glide only. So the question is...would the UK add huge cost to a missile (TJ-150 engine is >£40k alone), increase development time and risk and reduce the size of the warhead by 66%, from what it could be, for just another 20-30 miles range...I'd say categorically no...

So SDB2 is 93kg, with a warhead size of 48kg. Therefore the weight of the sensors, guidance, missile body and everything else is 45kg in total...

Spear dimensionally is near exactly the same. Weight has been listed as c100kg. If we take the SDB2 figure of 45kg for sensors, guidance and missile body etc. that leaves c55kg. Although they're different missiles they're not going to be that far removed. After all they have very similar capabilities in terms of guidance. We also know that the TJ-150 engine weighs 21kg. Which leaves 34kg to play with (55-21). All we know about Spear's warhead is that it is 'twice' the size of Brimstone's. Brimstone has a 6kg warhead so it seems reasonable and fair to say that Spear has a c14-15kg warhead (with a little allowance added in). That leaves us with c20kg for fuel for the TJ-150.

We also know the thrust and TSFC for the TJ-150...150lbs of thrust and a TSFC of c1.15. This means that to generate 150lbs of thrust for 12 minutes you would need around 35lbs (16kg) of fuel. Travelling at 600mph for 12 minutes will take you 120 miles.....(lets forget about the 4kg fuel left and leave that for piping, tankage, miscellaneous items etc.)

Range could actually be far in excess of 120 miles if they can keep it at altitude then harness the gliding potential at fuel exhaustion like SDB2 (remember the Spear gets lighter through its flight as it burns fuel as well...., whereas SDB2 remains the same mass all the way to target). But we don't know what state the SDB2 is in at the end of its range (i.e. is it a diving attack from a reasonable altitude, or is it coming in almost horizontally with practically zero energy left) or the power situation (electrical for guidance etc.) on both, so probably too risky just to add that on....

I think 120nm range is a reasonable lower estimate with some justification. But most of all because it simply wouldn't be worth doing in the first place if you didn't get a decent range increase out of it...
 
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Any thoughts on what height and speed the aircraft launching the unpowered 93 kg SDB2 needed to achieve 70 miles?
 
Cordy said:
Any thoughts on what height and speed the aircraft launching the unpowered 93 kg SDB2 needed to achieve 70 miles?
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Nothing stated anywhere, but its likely to be high subsonic and at a reasonable height say 30,000ft+ above lower range AA threats. Raytheon wouldn't want to be giving too low a figure but at the same time I suspect they might be holding a little in reserve. Worth noting that this is for stationary targets only, the range drops significantly for moving targets to 45 miles (which still is really good). Truth is we don't know what they mean by moving target, if its a really representative target moving in varied directions and at speed (rather than a linear straight line at constant speed) requiring the weapon to make regular course corrections thats pretty good.
 
Looks like Ground Launched Brimstone is going to get a second user...

www.defensenews.com

Polish pick MBDA’s Brimstone missile for their new fleet of tank-busting vehicles

Brimstone has been in the news in the last few days after it emerged that Ukrainian troops had been using the British-supplied weapon to destroy Russian armor.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

I do wonder if there will be any impetus now for the UK to reverse its recent decision to equip AH-64E with JAGM. Poland also looks likely to select AH-64E...might make some sense...(also Saudi Arabia and Qatar, who use Brimstone on Typhoon, and in Saudi's case Tornado, are also AH-64E users...). Mind you its not like the UK government to make long term, sensible decision recently...
 
timmymagic said:
Looks like Ground Launched Brimstone is going to get a second user...

www.defensenews.com

Polish pick MBDA’s Brimstone missile for their new fleet of tank-busting vehicles

Brimstone has been in the news in the last few days after it emerged that Ukrainian troops had been using the British-supplied weapon to destroy Russian armor.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

I do wonder if there will be any impetus now for the UK to reverse its recent decision to equip AH-64E with JAGM. Poland also looks likely to select AH-64E...might make some sense...(also Saudi Arabia and Qatar, who use Brimstone on Typhoon, and in Saudi's case Tornado, are also AH-64E users...). Mind you its not like the UK government to make long term, sensible decision recently...
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You make a good point. Definitely time to revise purchase of JAGM. US supply is hitting a bottleneck on things like Javelin at the moment.
Whereas dual facilities for Brimstone and Ceptor deliver excess capacity.
 
Brimstone's origins are in the need to defeat mass Soviet armour advances across Europe in bad weather under cover of mobile IADS in conditions of intense EW.

If Ukraine is getting a supply of them, then Russian armour is having a bad day.
Chief limiters are intel on Russian vehicles, launcher numbers and actual supply of missiles.
I suspect it's launchers that currently limit Ukrainian use.
 
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zen said:
Chief limiters are intel on Russian vehicles, launcher numbers and actual supply of missiles.
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We should have at least 1,000 Brimstone 1 left, suspect if the RAF has been told the Treasury will fund new production to replace old stock they'll be over the moon with a load of new Brimstone 3B.
 
zen said:
Brimstone's origins are in the need to defeat mass Soviet armour advances across Europe in bad weather inder cover of mobile IADS in conditions of intense EW.

If Ukraine is getting a supply of them, then Russian armour is having a bad day.
Chief limiters are intel on Russian vehicles, launcher numbers and actual supply of missiles.
I suspect it's launchers that currently limit Ukrainian use.
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Yep. I was thinking, lots of launchers and lots of drones capable of either providing target positional data or laser designation, and that should pretty much end this.
 
Forest Green said:
Be interesting to see a Bayraktar or similar armed with them too. Obviously it would need integration though.
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Brimstone or Hellfire are a little too much for a Bayratar TB2 to carry. Predator was really the smallest that could manage it, which is about 30% larger.
 
The Spear 3's start of air-testing has been pushed back by a year. It is far away from certification and production.
 
Since the SPEAR 3 is powered by a turbojet what are the chance that a solid-rocket booster will be developed for a ground launched version?
 

Technical trouble forces UK to delay SPEAR 3 first firing | Shephard

Technical issues are preventing the UK from meeting its original timeline to test-fire the MBDA SPEAR 3 weapon set for entry into service on F-35B fig
www.shephardmedia.com

GL-SDB on the other hand is just about ready for production, and the same for ER-GMLRS which will be operational next year. The latter will eventually house a seeker of some sort.
 
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