Lockheed Martin and the Yak-141

Phantom_Phlyer

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Hi there! I'm currently working on a research piece on the Yak-141 VTOL fighter and what Lockheed Martin was looking for by partnering with Yakovlev. I'm on the hunt for information and if there's anyone that knows people I can contact or has documentation/legitimate information about the partnership, trades, or anything related to their collaboration, it would be an absolutely massive help. Thank you!

For those of you interested, I can post the final product here, but I wouldn't expect it anytime soon
 
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Hi there! I'm currently working on a research piece on the Yak-141 VTOL fighter and what Lockheed Martin was looking for by partnering with Yakovlev. I'm on the hunt for information and if there's anyone that knows people I can contact or has documentation/legitimate information about the partnership, trades, or anything related to their collaboration, it would be an absolutely massive help. Thank you!
I don't have documentation to back this up, but what it looks like LockMart bought from Yak was their experience and data on lift jets. Not to use lift jets themselves (MDD was the one proposing lift jets), but the levels of thrust you could get through an engine installation in the airframe, not just bench thrust outside.
 
I thought it was for practical experience with a three-bearing swivel nozzle? I'm sure LM was doing testing on the ground and they also had access to the work that Convair had done on for their Model 200, but being able to get some data on an aircraft flying with such a nozzle could probably be helpful.
 
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Lockheed Martin bought the swivel nozzle design from Yak. The purchase had nothing to do with lift jets. Also, the MDD proposal did not use lift jets, but rather a gas driven lift fan.
 
 
Lockheed Martin bought the swivel nozzle design from Yak. The purchase had nothing to do with lift jets. Also, the MDD proposal did not use lift jets, but rather a gas driven lift fan.
Yakovlev didn't own the nozzle design, but they did have operational experience with it. Apparently Lockheed got very little for they money.

Gas driven lift fan didn't work so MDD/Northrop/BAE switched to lift jets. This basically killed their bid.
 
I’ve been interested in this question
During the early days of the JAST effort, Lockheed (accompanied by US government officials from the JAST program office) visited the Yakovlev Design Bureau along with several other suppliers of aviation equipment (notably also the Zvezda K-36 ejection seat) to examine the Yakovlev technologies and designs.

Yakovlev was looking for money to keep its VTOL program alive, not having received any orders for a production version of the Yak-141. Lockheed provided a small amount of funding in return for obtaining performance data and limited design data on the Yak-141. US government personnel were allowed to examine the aircraft. However, the 3BSN design was already in place on the X-35 before these visits.
That part about the JAST program offices interested me so I reached out to DTIC. Apparently they have one document

ADB170956
YAK-141 - Multipurpose V/STOL Aircraft

2/23/1993
OFFICE OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE WASHINGTON DC

[ONI-TRANS-9301/72]
17 pages



Marked as Proprietary Info, other similar reports are not. I’m not sure how likely it is they would grant a request for something Proprietary, but I suspect it might have some of what Lockheed paid for.
 
I’ve been interested in this question

That part about the JAST program offices interested me so I reached out to DTIC. Apparently they have one document

ADB170956
YAK-141 - Multipurpose V/STOL Aircraft

2/23/1993
OFFICE OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE WASHINGTON DC

[ONI-TRANS-9301/72]
17 pages



Marked as Proprietary Info, other similar reports are not. I’m not sure how likely it is they would grant a request for something Proprietary, but I suspect it might have some of what Lockheed paid for.
Ask and find out?
 
I’ve been interested in this question

That part about the JAST program offices interested me so I reached out to DTIC. Apparently they have one document

ADB170956
YAK-141 - Multipurpose V/STOL Aircraft

2/23/1993
OFFICE OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE WASHINGTON DC

[ONI-TRANS-9301/72]
17 pages



Marked as Proprietary Info, other similar reports are not. I’m not sure how likely it is they would grant a request for something Proprietary, but I suspect it might have some of what Lockheed paid for.
Dude, this is awesome. Thank you so much. Do you know who or where I might be able to go to for this document?
 
I don't have documentation to back this up, but what it looks like LockMart bought from Yak was their experience and data on lift jets. Not to use lift jets themselves (MDD was the one proposing lift jets), but the levels of thrust you could get through an engine installation in the airframe, not just bench thrust outside.
So, you said that MDD was proposing lift jets at the time and not using Yakovlev's. Which engine were they producing cause this information might be very helpful to find.
 
Dude, this is awesome. Thank you so much. Do you know who or where I might be able to go to for this document?
You should send a FOIA request to DTIC and ONI. Include all the information I included. I’d love to know what’s in them or if they cite any other documents.
 
So, you said that MDD was proposing lift jets at the time and not using Yakovlev's. Which engine were they producing cause this information might be very helpful to find.
ISTR Bill Sweetman saying it was basically a short, high bypass turbofan mounted vertically.
 
Hi there! I'm currently working on a research piece on the Yak-141 VTOL fighter and what Lockheed Martin was looking for by partnering with Yakovlev. I'm on the hunt for information and if there's anyone that knows people I can contact or has documentation/legitimate information about the partnership, trades, or anything related to their collaboration, it would be an absolutely massive help. Thank you!
They never "partnered with" Yakovlev. They paid to take a peep and some info. Given all the info they had from the Convair Model 200 effort, and its 3-bearing nozzle, they didn't really find a lot that was useful. (There were people who'd worked on the Convair 200 on the X-35 program.)
 
They never "partnered with" Yakovlev. They paid to take a peep and some info. Given all the info they had from the Convair Model 200 effort, and its 3-bearing nozzle, they didn't really find a lot that was useful
Yep. One common disinformation on the F-35/Yak relation that I commonly heard on mainstream social media- LM copied Yak, Americans always get their panties in a bunch whenevet they see a 141, glorious USSR etc. Not a good idea to touch the brainrotted feeding on ill-placed nationalism even with a very long barge poll.
 
LOCKHEED MARTIN TAPS YAKOVLEV FOR STOVL SKILL
JOHN D. MORROCCO/LE BOURGET

Lockheed Martin, unable to use British expertise due to preexisting contractual arrangements, has turned to a Russian company for assistance on short takeoff/ vertical landing (STOVL) technology in its bid for the US. Joint Advanced Strike Technology program.

The US. company has signed an agreement with the Yakovlev Design Bureau, the only other aircraft developer in the world with extensive experience in STOVL technology. Yakovlev has developed several STOVL aircraft, including the Yak-36, Yak-38 and the supersonic Yak-141. The latter failed to get a production goahead from the Russian government and was subsequently canceled.

Mickey Blackwell, president of Lockheed Martin's Aeronautics Sector, said Yakovlev possesses unique technologies ”that will give us an edge” in the JAST competition. Under the agreement, Lockheed Martin will receive data and information applicable to the company’s JAST design activities
in preparation for the demonstrator phase of the program. The JAST program office, which blessed Lockheed Martin’s approach to Yakovlev, seeks to develop a family of low cost aircraft for after the turn of the century, including a STOVL variant. The agreement must still be approved by the Russian government, however.

INTERIM APPROVAL, WHICH would allow Yakovlev to begin work, could come as early as this week, according to Dave Palmer, deputy JAST program manager at Lockheed Martin's Tactical Aircraft Systems. Final approval is anticipated in two months.

The technical assistance agreement calls for Yakovlev to provide data requested by Lockheed Martin, including information on the Russian company’s prior STOVL programs. There will be no flow-back of US. technology. ”The fact that it is a one-way data exchange precludes us from having to get State Dept. approval,” Palmer said.

But the company is seeking State Dept. approval to allow face—to—face technical discussions with Yakovlev officials as part of the data transfer agreement. The only other non-US company that has designed and produced a STOVL aircraft is British Aerospace, which has a longstanding, exclusive arrangement with McDonnell Douglas on the Harrier. Blackwell said that arrangement passed on to the JAST program, in which McDonnell Douglas is teamed with British Aerospace and Northrop Grumman.

BLACKWELL SAID HE thought the exclusive arrangement represented a ”bad deal" for the British government, which is formally a partner with the U.S. on JAST. He believes the United Kingdom would get the ”most bang for the buck” by working with all the competing firms. The other prime contractor competing on the JAST program is Boeing. Lockheed Martin has expressed this view to the British government, but obviously without success given its decision to turn to Yakovlev.

The move is surprising in that the U.S. government has yet to allow other allied nations besides Britain to join the JAST program, which is intended to produce a family of aircraft in the next century. Germany and France have expressed an interest in joining the effort, but have yet to reach an agreement with the Pentagon.

Blackwell said the difference between British and Russian involvement is that Britain sees the JAST program as the road to developing and procuring an aircraft to replace its Harriers. Lockheed Martin’s agreement with Yakovlev calls for the Russian design bureau to act as a subcontractor only, providing technical information rather than cooperating on an aircraft design or production. Blackwell sees the agreement with Yakovlev as a ”risk reduction” measure.

The Yak-141 employed a lift, plus lift cruise propulsion system, while Lockheed Martin is proposing a shaft—driven lift fan concept. Despite the differing concepts, Lockheed Martin believes Yakovlev can provide valuable technical assistance. ”Given open source literature, they can visualize what a shaft-driven lift fan concept is,” Palmer said.

Lockheed Martin is primarily interested in Yakovlev’s software programs concerning flow fields which can predict ground environment effects for full and subscale models, he said. The company will also have access to past data to help validate its modeling and simulation for JAST. Lockheed Martin envisions extending its subcontractual relationship with Yakovlev throughout all phases of the JAST program. The program moves into the demonstrator phase next year.

Aviation Week & Space Technology, 19 June 1995
 
PRATT TO STUDY SOYUZ DATA IN DESIGNING JAST NOZZLE
MICHAEL A. DORNHEIM/LOS ANGELES

The Soyuz Aero Engine Co. will provide vectoring nozzle information for the Lockheed Martin Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) aircraft design under a technical assistance agreement it signed with Pratt & Whitney.

Soyuz is the second Russian company to join the short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) aspect of Lockheed Martin's JAST concept. Yakovlev recently received Russian government approval to provide data, and last week Lockheed Martin asked Yakovlev to proceed (AW&STJune 19, p. 74).

Yakovlev’s Yak-141 short takeoff/vertical landing demonstrator is the only aircraft that approximates Lockheed Martin's JAST configuration (AW&ST Sept. 14, 1992, p. 23). Its weight also is close to that projected for JAST. The Russian company has long experience with the concept from its Yak-38 operational STOVL fighter, and Lockheed Martin wants to examine its design methodology.

Soyuz makes the Yak-141’s main R- 79V turbofan engine and its downward vectoring nozzle.

”WE WANT TO DEVELOP a working relationship to see if we can work together in the future,” David F. Palmer, Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems’ JAST deputy program manager, said. Pratt & Whitney wants to learn about Soyuz’s three-bearing circular nozzle. Two of the bearings connect angled cuts in the exhaust duct, and the third is at a straight cut. Rotating the bearings in synchronization deflects the exhaust down while cancelling unwanted yaw components.

The nozzle can be used with the heat of partial afterburner, an impressive accomplishment unmatched by a flightworthy Western nozzle with extreme vectoring capability.

Pratt & Whitney is designing a three-bearing circular nozzle for the Lockheed Martin JAST, but will also have Soyuz design a nozzle. The Russian company could also be involved with fabrication, either through Pratt & Whitney or directly with Lockheed Martin.

Lockheed Martin’s 86% scale wind tunnel model is currently equipped with a Rolls-Royce rectangular vectoring nozzle. Design trade studies are still being conducted, Paul M. Bevilaqua, Lockheed Martin Skunk Works advanced STOVL deputy program manager, said. ”First principles say the round nozzle is lighter, but other features have to be considered,” he said. A rectangular nozzle is more suited to stealth design.

Lockheed Martin JAST is a ”two plus two post” design with about 80% of the vertical thrust coming from the engine’s aft nozzle and front shaft-driven fan, and the remainder from wing root nozzles using engine fan air (AW&ST May 8, p.24). The Yak-141 has a similar configuration and two small, vertically aligned engines that serve a function similar to the JAST lift fan.

The Yak-141 has an empty weight of about 24,000 lb., and JAST’s would be similar. Landing weight will usually be about 4,000 to 5,000 lb. heavier. The
Harrier weighs 15,000 to 16,000 lb. empty.

Palmer said Lockheed Martin's technical assistance agreement with Yakovlev covers two areas:
  • Data from the Yak-141 and Yak-38 on ground effects, such as damage to various landing surfaces, ingestion of foreign objects and recirculated exhaust, erosion damage, aerodynamic ”suckdown” effects and acoustic loads. Both roll-on and vertical landing data will be examined.
  • Analysis by Yakovlev of a generic JAST configuration to gain insight into the company's design methods and an independent check of Lockheed Martin’s results.
”Yakovlev has sophisticated software for predicting ground effects,” Palmer said. ”We want them to predict a ground footprint from our design. It will complement our outdoor, 86% scale tests at NASA Ames.”

Lockheed Martin also is interested in information on Zvezda ejection seats used by Yakovlev that automatically fire when a crash is imminent. ”We’ve examined them for a year and are convinced they’re good,” Palmer said. There is also interest in how the lift fan inlet aft of the cockpit may affect ejection seat trajectory.

Lockheed Martin may also ask Yakovlev to design a control system for JAST, Bevilaqua said. He, Palmer and a Pratt & Whitney official visited Yakovlev in May. ”Yakovlev has done an impressive job of controlling the three-engine Yak-l 41 in a hover, and we’re interested in learning about their control architecture,” Bevilaqua said.

The first data from Yakovlev are expected around the end of November, and all data are to be delivered around the end of January, Palmer said. The study contract is worth less than $500,000 to Yakovlev. The data are timed to support proposals for a JAST demonstrator, which Palmer expects will be due around April.

Lockheed Martin also has considered having Yakovlev build parts, ”but that’s to be determined,” Bevilaqua said. Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney
are still awaiting US State Dept. approval to have two-way discussions with Yakovlev and Soyuz. But a one-way flow of information from Yakovlev should be acceptable without State Dept. approval, Palmer said.

SEVERAL MONTHS AGO Lockheed Martin considered installing the JAST propulsion system in the Yak—141 demonstrator as an economical testbed if Congress severely cuts program funds, but this is not currently a serious option. ”It’s not in our plan,” Bevilaqua said. ”It’s fallback position C.”

”The JAST program has no intention of pursuing that sort of strategy,” a senior Pentagon official said. ”That must be something internal to Lockheed Martin.”

”The purpose of building an aircraft is to show that the requirements of the four JAST services can be met, and the Yak-141 can’t do that,” Palmer said.
Aviation Week & Space Technology 4 September 1995
 
What I have posted above is the full scope of Yakovlev's 1995 involvement on JSF. Less than $500,000. Engineers who worked on the F-35 say the supplied data and reports were not very useful in the end. This ended further potential involvement as discussed in the above articles.
 
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This wasn't Lockheed and Yakovlev's first alleged venture however.

In the same month, September 1991, the CIS Navy announced termination of funds for the Yak-41M programme. The Smolensk factory had seen this coming, and had not put the planned series tooling in place. After urgent discussion the OKB decided it had to find a foreign partner who could help to fund the programme, and to help to achieve this it made a major investment in bringing 48-2 (its ‘75’ replaced by ‘141°) to the SBAC display at Farnborough on 6-13 September 1992. The OKB announced at the show that they had reached an agreement with such a partner on a continuation programme, costed at US$385—400m, for three new flight articles and a static-test aircraft to introduce important improvements to both the aircraft and avionics.

Modifications in the proposed Yak-141M (this number becoming official) would have included an increase in STO weight to 21,500kg (47,3991b), while one of the prototypes would have been of the Yak-141U dual trainer.
Yakovlev Aircraft Since 1924 - Bill Gunston & Yefim Gordon

In 1985 Paul Bevilaqua joined the Skunk Works as the chief engineer of Advanced Development Projects. During the brief post-Gorbachev period, when it looked as if Russia was on a glide path to democracy, Lockheed had contacted the Yakovlev design bureau in Moscow with the offer of a partnership. Four hundred million dollars of Lockheed cash had enabled Yakovlev, designer of the YAK-38 Forger—a VTOL fighter that had operated from Soviet carriers —to build a demonstration model of the YAK-141M, a supersonic-capable version. Both the Yak-38 and Yak-141 had supplemented down-vectored thrust from the rear-mounted engines with two smaller, separate jet engines mounted forward, angled out and down just behind the pilot. These were used only during the vertical takeoff and landing. Two prototypes were built before the partnership ended, but it proved there may be a workable alternative to direct lift.
Tom Burbage, Betsy Clark, and Adrian Pitman F-35 - The Inside Story of the Lightning II
 
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Aviation Week's Farnborough 1992 coverage notes only that Yakovlev were looking for a partner for $385 million to complete development, without saying they actually had one as Gunston & Gordon suggest.

in the later book Yakovlev Yak-36, Yak-38 & Yak-41: The Soviet ‘Jump Jets’ Gordon says

The Yak Corporation explored the possibilities of cooperation with western aerospace companies that might endeavour to create a next-generation VTOL combat aircraft; however, for various reasons there were no takers.
 
As the biggest experience in STOVL was in the UK it was obvious that British Aerospace was a valuable partner but as mentioned before it had chosen McDonnell Douglas but on an exclusive basis. Lockheed had very little or no experience in this field and therefore looked elsewhere. The only other company with the same amount of experience was to be found in Russia, the Yakovlev design bureau. The JAST programme office had no problem with the fact that Lockheed was going toa former state enemy company to obtain critical technology. State Department approval was needed and interim approval came by the end of June 1995. The only strange thing was that Yakovlev had only experience with the Lift Plus Lift Cruise (LPLC) configuration, which was under development by Northrop Grumman. Nevertheless, Lockheed believed that despite the technical difference between the two approaches Yakovlev could supply valuable assistance. However, the importance has been downplayed in several publications as an investment with minimum return.

Gerard Keijsper, Lockheed F-35 JSF - Design and Development of the International Aircraft
 
You would hope Tom Burbage knows if his firm gave $400 million to Yakovlev in the early 1990s or not, but I'm not that confident on the research in that book.

I think there were talks for sure, but if Lockheed actually gave them the money Yakovlev clearly blew it all on vodka as nothing came of the additional prototypes etc and it would seem unlikely Lockheed would have then given them a JAST related contract in 1995.
 
Joint work with Lockheed Martin on a VTOL aircraft project. In 1995 the Yakovlev OKB received permission from the Russian Ministry of Defence to conduct joint work with the Lockheed Martin Company (USA) on the development of a new-generation VTOL combat aircraft. The US partners estimated the cost of research and development work under this programme intended to last until 1998 at some US$ 4 billion. The Yakovlev OKB promptly rendered the necessary assistance to the Lockheed Martin Company in solving many basic design problems on a concept level, associated with the choice of the main parameters of a VTOL fighter as a whole and of its powerplant, as well as operational problems concerned with exhaust gas recirculation and flight control during take-off and landing.

Upon completion of this stage the US partner took a decision to conduct further work on the project entirely on its own, albeit the potential of co-operation had by no means been exhausted.
Yefim Gordon, OKB Yakovlev
 
Burbage figure of $400M is utterly BS
WIkipedia and some other online sources state that Lockheed gave $400 million related to the 1992 Yakovlev "we need a partner to give us $395-400 million to complete development" statement. The source for the claim in the wikipedia article don't support this (its the Gunston/Gordon book, which merely says Yakovlev claimed to have found a partner, which claim itself is dubious).

The fact this seems to have made it into the Tom Burbage book is utterly hilarious and depressing at the same time.
 
The first data from Yakovlev are expected around the end of November, and all data are to be delivered around the end of January, Palmer said. The study contract is worth less than $500,000 to Yakovlev. The data are timed to support proposals for a JAST demonstrator, which Palmer expects will be due around April.

This specific contract was under $500,000, but there might have been a few others.
 
So, you said that MDD was proposing lift jets at the time and not using Yakovlev's. Which engine were they producing cause this information might be very helpful to find.
I don't remember hearing which engine, though you could probably look at any Business Jet turbofan making ~6000-9000lbs thrust as a likely candidate.

Remember, MDD was not selected to build a flying prototype.
 
I don't remember hearing which engine, though you could probably look at any Business Jet turbofan making ~6000-9000lbs thrust as a likely candidate.

Remember, MDD was not selected to build a flying prototype.
Allison and Rolls-Royce did lots of work on liftjets and liftfans in the late 1960s. Allison's 610-D6 engine was a a turbofan with 18.6:1 thrust to weight ratio and thrust of 10,000lb. A new generation liftfan would have been a nice project for Rolls-Royce.

Northrop, who were the original proponents of liftjets, thought that they were sufficiently proven to not need demonstration. Not sure what McDonnell-Douglas would have done if selected for the demonstrator.
 
Allison and Rolls-Royce did lots of work on liftjets and liftfans in the late 1960s. Allison's 610-D6 engine was a a turbofan with 18.6:1 thrust to weight ratio and thrust of 10,000lb. A new generation liftfan would have been a nice project for Rolls-Royce.

Northrop, who were the original proponents of liftjets, thought that they were sufficiently proven to not need demonstration. Not sure what McDonnell-Douglas would have done if selected for the demonstrator.
RB.189 ? XJ.99 ? (from memory)
 
I thought it was for practical experience with a three-bearing swivel nozzle? I'm sure LM was doing testing on the on the ground and they also had access to the work that Convair had done on for their Model 200, but being able to get some data on an aircraft flying with such a nozzle could probably be helpful.
Pretty sure it was more than the swivel nozzle (which people end up focusing on for some reason). Yakovlev spent decades working out the general kinks around its VTOL and STOVL design - the fact that the F-35 followed the Yak-141's general layout, and that its VTOL ended up working, while the X-32s didn't imo has a lot to do with the experience and test data Yak brought to the table.
 
Lockheed Martin bought the swivel nozzle design from Yak. The purchase had nothing to do with lift jets. Also, the MDD proposal did not use lift jets, but rather a gas driven lift fan.
Yak didn't own the swivel nozzle design, so that seems somewhat unlikely. Also MDD ditched the gas driven lift fan as it didn't work out and fell back on junior partner Northrop's preferred liftjet solution.
 
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Aviation Week & Space Technology 4 September 1995
On the Ejection seat it seems the did get it and test it
ADA321294
The K-36D Ejection Seat Foreign Comparative Testing (FCT) Program.
5/1/1996
In 1989 at the Paris Air Show, a K-36D ejection seat gained wide public attention when the pilot successfully ejected from a MiG.29 after an extremely low altitude engine failure. The K-36D is standard equipment in Russian high-performance aircraft, being rated for survivable ejections at speeds of 0-755 KEAS. In 1993, a Foreign Comparative Testing (FCT) Program was initiated to evaluate the Soviet designed K-36D ejection seat. The objectives of this program were to increase USAFIUSN knowledge of the state of Russian ejection seat technology, confirm or refute Russian claims on the performance of the K-36D ejection seat and associated personnel equipment, determine the relevance of Soviet ejection seat technology and fight crew equipment to development of a technology base for expansion of the performance envelope of USAF!USN escape systems and to develop working relationships between the US and Russian technical teams. The program consisted of eight ejections from modified MiG-25 aircraft at altitudes up to 56,000 ft at Mach 2.5, and three rocket sled tests at speeds up to 755 KEAS. This report discusses the K-36 FCT Program and the results of the ejection testing, comparing the performance of the K-36D to that of current Western ejection seats. In 1989 at the Paris Air Show, a K-36D ejection seat gained wide public attention when the pilot successfully ejected from a MiG.29 after an extremely low altitude engine failure. The K-36D is standard equipment in Russian high-performance aircraft, being rated for survivable ejections at speeds of 0-755 KEAS.
ARMSTRONG LAB WRIGHT-PATTERSON AFB OH CREW SYSTEMS DIRECTORATE

Specker, Lawrence J.,Plaga, John A.

AL/CF-TR-1996-0099

437 pages

Not sure what else they physically had
 
You would hope Tom Burbage knows if his firm gave $400 million to Yakovlev in the early 1990s or not, but I'm not that confident on the research in that book.

I think there were talks for sure, but if Lockheed actually gave them the money Yakovlev clearly blew it all on vodka as nothing came of the additional prototypes etc and it would seem unlikely Lockheed would have then given them a JAST related contract in 1995.
I'm still wondering why Lockheed would the ones giving Yakovlev money when it was McDonnell Douglas who was scrounging for STOVL expertise. :confused: On top of that Lockheed had the Convair 200 (which could have been JSF in the 80s) to draw on.
 
I'm still wondering why Lockheed would the ones giving Yakovlev money when it was McDonnell Douglas who was scrounging for STOVL expertise. :confused: On top of that Lockheed had the Convair 200 (which could have been JSF in the 80s) to draw on.
McDonnell Douglas of AV-8 fame?
 

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