German Atomic Bombs in WW2

[edwest4]

Willful ignorance of a large number of documents, with document names and locations, is willful ignorance. 'Nope. There's no documents!' And when the details about those documents are mentioned, 'Nope. They're all Fakes!'

Present documents that present actual evidence. Documents directly from reputable archives that anyone can check on.

Here??? I would rather be stung by a thousand insects. Meanwhile, you are ignoring the book mentioned by William J. Pellas. So, continue to ignore all of this if you like.

 

[uk 75]

The most conclusive proof that Hitler Germany didnt have a working bomb is that they didnt use it on the Eastern Front or in a Wagnerian gesture in Berlin.
Didnt help that all the best scientists in Germany left pdq when the Nazis took power.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Present documents that present actual evidence. Documents directly from reputable archives that anyone can check on.

Here??? I would rather be stung by a thousand insects.

You, I presume, understand how that sounds to rational people. "I have proof! But I refuse to show it!!!"

Meanwhile, you are ignoring the book mentioned by William J. Pellas.

The book has been pretty roundly debunked in this very thread. You might as well suggest that I use Chariots of the Gods to back up your claims.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Could there be cases where the "footprint" of the bomb is barely noticeable?

Not really, no. Any conceivable Nazi nuke would have been a uranium bomb requiring hundreds of kilograms of fissionable material. Set off on land, even atop a tower (at best a very modest tower), such an early bomb would have been *filthy.* The surroundings would have seen the sudden appearance of a crater, one lined with Trinitite and the surroundings and some distance downwind very badly dirtied up with activated bomb bits and fissionables.

Now if there was some site where the occupying powers suddenly and mysteriously devoted a *LOT* or money and manpower to scraping up an entire burned-out forest and hauling thousands or millions of tons of debris off over the horizon... sure, maybe. No such radioactive cleanup has been demonstrated. So *now* they're yammering on about setting a bomb off on water. Not because a water test would have made the least bit of technical sense, but because it's the only way to explain the lack of a nuclear test site.

 

[kaiserd]

Everything else being equal (and it’s certainly not, as expanded on by other contributors above) comparisons with US nuclear tests versus what is being presented re: Nazi Germany are illuminating.
The US had one test and one test only of a representative weapon (Trinity) before approx. 6 weeks later they drop Little Boy.
While Nazi Germany, despite greatly less potential resources in this area, allegedly had multiple tests and (even as agreed by the presenters of all of this as fact) never got close to an actual operational use.
Despite Hitlers love/ almost psychological dependence on emergent vengeance weapons and desire to drag the world (including the now proven unworthy Germans) down with him.
Doesn’t this all sound rather far fetched and extremely unlikely? With not-even circumstantial to non existent evidence for any of this why the need to keep arguing this ahistorical nonsense, almost as an article of faith? And what faith would have you doing so?

 

[edwest4]

The most conclusive proof that Hitler Germany didnt have a working bomb is that they didnt use it on the Eastern Front or in a Wagnerian gesture in Berlin.
Didnt help that all the best scientists in Germany left pdq when the Nazis took power.

"all the best scientists"? Only surface comments? Repeating the official legend. Get a copy of Atomversuche in Deutschland by Günter Nagel for a list of those German atomic bomb scientists. Names that were excluded from the official story.

Useful atomic bomb deployment would have required a suitable carrier system. The Germans did not use nerve gas even though they had it. Look up Sarin, Soman and Tabun.

 

[williamjpellas]

Willful ignorance of a large number of documents, with document names and locations, is willful ignorance. 'Nope. There's no documents!' And when the details about those documents are mentioned, 'Nope. They're all Fakes!'

Present documents that present actual evidence. Documents directly from reputable archives that anyone can check on.

All I have done to this point is "present documents that present actual evidence". The Russian documents are perfectly legitimate. If you want to see the originals in their original language, they are on pages 3281 and 3287 in Dr. Rider's book. Which I don't think will help you very much unless you read and speak Russian, but there ya go nevertheless. I also presented the chart which lists the 10 known primary sources which describe the Rugen Island test in October, 1944. Edwest mentions one of them, which is the Italian reporter, Luigi Romersa. He was a well known and well regarded defense and aerospace journalist who had a very lengthy postwar career. Romersa moved in the upper circles of power in the wartime Axis and throughout the postwar Western nations. Here he is, for example, circa 1965 with the Israeli writer Yael Dayan:



Also mentioned was Philip Morrison, the well known Manhattan Project scientist. Morrison was well aware of the wartime German nuclear weapons program in general, and the Rugen Island test in particular, as the following US National Archives papers clearly demonstrate:

Philip Morrison and Karl Cohen. 31 July 1944. Appraisal of Enemy Bomb Production.
[NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 168, Folder 203.11—Tech. Countermeasures + RW—1943–1944]
APPRAISAL OF ENEMY BOMB PRODUCTION

Summary

Recent evidence essentially confirms our earlier general statements on enemy bomb production.

The reports now at hand lead us to conclude:

1. A German “Y” project has been underway since early 1943.
2. A D2O pile is in operation, but we do not believe that this is on production level.
3. It is implied that a separation method is operating at a production level, for it is surely improbable that the enemy will organize a utilization group without something to use.

We include a time schedule, and a technical discuss of the probable means employed. Enemy production of devices can be as high as: 1. 1 device every 3 months—on the assumption that 30 kg of material are required per device. 2. 1 device every month—on the assumption that 10 kg of material are required per device. In either case the first completed device could be in enemy hands now (End of document).

"A German Y project" means an attempt at building electromagnetic uranium separators on an industrial scale. "A D2O pile...in operation" means a reactor moderated by heavy water, which the conventional so-called "history" insists was completely impossible for the Germans because of the bomber and commando attacks on the Norsk Hydro heavy water plant in Telemark, Norway. "A utilization group" means a gathering of German military and scientific muckety-mucks to decide how, when, and where they were going to use their emergent nuclear weapons. The US did the same thing, and so did Japan. Beyond this, Morrison and Cohen obviously thought that the Germans were well along in their nuclear effort and were already actually building weapons by late 1944.


Philip Morrison to Joseph Volpe, 20 October 1944, Loose Ends
[NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 171, Folder 32.60-2
Germany: Summary Reports (1945–1946)]

There are a number of things to be done by the Washington office which have not yet been done. 1. We need a final report on the installation at Watten. This is such an extraordinary enterprise that we must be sure that it was not designed for something in our field. 2. The questions for Mr. Baker should be answered. 3. The recent reports of Baltic explosions should be covered by Major Calvert as usual. 4. The de Boer matter is still open. Has Alsos contacted J. H. de Boer at Eindhoven? This should be done if it is still possible.

Dr. Rider comments:

Dr. Philip Morrison (U.S., 1915–2005), a Manhattan Project physicist, was stationed in the United States but specifically tasked with analyzing Allied intelligence data on the German nuclear program. Morrison’s publicly available documents indicate that up through 1945, he believed the German nuclear program was much more advanced and dangerous than better-known investigators such as Samuel Goudsmit and Boris Pash seemed to. Regarding the specific points in the memo above: 1. Even months after the Allied invasion of France, Morrison and other Allied officials were both awed (“extraordinary”) by the rocket-launching installation at Watten and worried that some of its features seemed to indicate it involved nuclear payloads for the rockets. 2. “Mr. Baker” was Niels Bohr, who was famously quite concerned about the progress of the wartime German nuclear program. 3. In October 1944, there were “recent reports of Baltic explosions” that were being investigated by the Manhattan Project as possible tests of a German atomic bomb. That information agrees well with the other sources in this section that reported the apparent test of an atomic bomb on the Baltic coast in October 1944. Morrison’s comment also makes it clear that Allied officials thought the German nuclear program could be sufficiently advanced to test an atomic bomb, and that U.S. Army Major Horace Calvert had a “usual” procedure for collecting and analyzing such data. Can the relevant Allied intelligence reports be located and declassified now? 4. Manhattan Project intelligence analysts were actively seeking information on the German nuclear program from the Dutch intelligence network, and Samuel Goudsmit was involved in at least some of those contacts, including with the physical chemist Dr. Jan Hendrik de Boer (Dutch, 1899–1971). See pp. 3469–3473.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like the OSS---the Office of Strategic Services, the forerunner of the modern CIA---agreed with Morrison that there might be something to see here, after all:

OSS Report No. FF-83. 21 October 1944. Atom Smashing Secret Weapon.
[NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 171, Folder 32.7003-2
GERMANY: US Wartime Positive Int. (July–Oct. 44)]

1. The Germans have completed a weapon which is founded on the principle of the disintegration of matter (Atomzertruemmerung). Experiments have been performed which have proved conclusive. The effect of this weapon is like that of a thunderbolt, naturally much magnified.

2. It would be possible to direct the effect of this weapon in any given direction. Possibly it is a question of a sort of projectile rather than of a weapon properly so-called. The radius of action is supposed to be about three kilometers. The devastation produced by this weapon is said to be such that Hitler plans to use it only in the air, against planes, for example. Nevertheless, the Germans say that in case of necessity they will not hesitate to use it on the ground as well. This weapon seems to be ready, in fact, for use upon the battlefield, but it still exists only in the form of a model. Germany needs—and this appears to be absolutely certain—a delay of at least three months. Practically speaking, it seems that only within five months could the weapon be ready for use. (This summary agrees with comments that Romersa attributed to Joseph Goebbels to the effect that Germany needed "six months" to complete serial production models of the weapon tested at Rugen in October, 1944. That was almost exactly how much longer the Third Reich lasted until its formal surrender, though organized resistance was largely kaput by the second half of the preceding month -- WP.)

3. Different conversations which have taken place with industrial leaders in charge of concentration of production of German war material give the impression that Germany has unlimited confidence in the use of this weapon, which is to bring them certain victory.

4. Herr Schneider, one of the directors of the German factories called Deutsche Waffen u. Munitionsfabrik (a combine representing some fifteen factories and 250,000 workers) declared with a smile: “We shall gain the victory by new weapons, we are absolutely sure of that. Just now it is simply a case of gaining time, because the new arms will not be ready before three or four months. Bombing cannot keep us from building them. Our important factories where the assembly is carried out are all subterranean (a possible reference to Project Riese -- WP). An immense quantity of accessories is made in small lots everywhere throughout the country, so that bombing cannot interrupt the production. Our troops may retire within our frontiers. That does not matter, for nothing will be able to stand up for any length of time against these new weapons and we shall resume our overwhelming advance.”

5. Directors of certain other factories have shown the same inveterate optimism, aroused by the confidence which they have in the effects of these new weapons.

6. Names of certain industrialists with whom the interviews took place: Herr Schneider—Director of the Deutsche Waffen und Munitions-Fabrik. His German title is Wehrwirtschaftsbeauftragter (Superintendent of Armament Production) in the region of the Duchy of Baden and Wurtemberg. He has charge of the plants of the Karlsruhe region. Director Dr. Buesse, who directs the DWM factories at Karlsruhe. Dr. Quant, Administrator of a part of the DWM combine of factories.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POW guards in the United States reported hearing something about a German secret explosive that had something to do with heavy water. This information made its way up the chain of command to the upper reaches of the Manhattan Project:

Baltimore Branch Office, Manhattan Engineer District. 4 August 1944 [NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 171, Folder 32.7003-2

GERMANY: US Wartime Positive Int. (July–Oct. 44)]
BALTIMORE BRANCH OFFICE MANHATTAN ENGINEER DISTRICT BALTIMORE, MD. 4 AUG 1944
Subject: Positive Intelligence Secured from Prisoners of War at Camp Reynolds, Pa., Relative to “Secret Weapon”

Summary of Information:

The following information has been received from what is believed to be a reliable source relative to use by the Germans of a secret weapon. “According to informant, the Germans are at present working on an extremely secret explosive. Informant knows very little about it and states that it has something to do with ‘Heavy Water’ (Schweres Wasser). Experiments are conducted on an estate in Pomerania and it is alleged that this explosive is capable of destroying everything in a radius of several kilometers.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every one of the documents just quoted and cited are original, primary source papers from WWII itself which are held in publicly accessible archives in the present day. How many more would you like to see?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Useful atomic bomb deployment would have required a suitable carrier system.

It's called "a truck." Germans had them. Not sure what the German word for "truck" is, probably something like "lorryrindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz" or some such. I'm sure you can look it up, then decide which of the available forms of transportation would have been capable of taking any of the doubtless many Nazi atom bombs from the Atom bomb factory to the front line to be buried right in front of the Soviet tank and infantry columns, set off by a fanatical SS man.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The Russian documents are perfectly legitimate.

Except the actual Russian in this thread says they're bullcrap.

 

[edwest4]

Willful ignorance of a large number of documents, with document names and locations, is willful ignorance. 'Nope. There's no documents!' And when the details about those documents are mentioned, 'Nope. They're all Fakes!'

Present documents that present actual evidence. Documents directly from reputable archives that anyone can check on.

All I have done to this point is "present documents that present actual evidence". The Russian documents are perfectly legitimate. If you want to see the originals in their original language, they are on pages 3281 and 3287 in Dr. Rider's book. Which I don't think will help you very much unless you read and speak Russian, but there ya go nevertheless. I also presented the chart which lists the 10 known primary sources which describe the Rugen Island test in October, 1944. Edwest mentions one of them, which is the Italian reporter, Luigi Romersa. He was a well known and well regarded defense and aerospace journalist who had a very lengthy postwar career. Romersa moved in the upper circles of power in the wartime Axis and throughout the postwar Western nations. Here he is, for example, circa 1965 with the Israeli writer Yael Dayan:

View attachment 663117

Also mentioned was Philip Morrison, the well known Manhattan Project scientist. Morrison was well aware of the wartime German nuclear weapons program in general, and the Rugen Island test in particular, as the following US National Archives papers clearly demonstrate:

Philip Morrison and Karl Cohen. 31 July 1944. Appraisal of Enemy Bomb Production.
[NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 168, Folder 203.11—Tech. Countermeasures + RW—1943–1944]
APPRAISAL OF ENEMY BOMB PRODUCTION

Summary

Recent evidence essentially confirms our earlier general statements on enemy bomb production.

The reports now at hand lead us to conclude:

1. A German “Y” project has been underway since early 1943.
2. A D2O pile is in operation, but we do not believe that this is on production level.
3. It is implied that a separation method is operating at a production level, for it is surely improbable that the enemy will organize a utilization group without something to use.

We include a time schedule, and a technical discuss of the probable means employed. Enemy production of devices can be as high as: 1. 1 device every 3 months—on the assumption that 30 kg of material are required per device. 2. 1 device every month—on the assumption that 10 kg of material are required per device. In either case the first completed device could be in enemy hands now (End of document).

"A German Y project" means an attempt at building electromagnetic uranium separators on an industrial scale. "A D2O pile...in operation" means a reactor moderated by heavy water, which the conventional so-called "history" insists was completely impossible for the Germans because of the bomber and commando attacks on the Norsk Hydro heavy water plant in Telemark, Norway. "A utilization group" means a gathering of German military and scientific muckety-mucks to decide how, when, and where they were going to use their emergent nuclear weapons. The US did the same thing, and so did Japan. Beyond this, Morrison and Cohen obviously thought that the Germans were well along in their nuclear effort and were already actually building weapons by late 1944.


Philip Morrison to Joseph Volpe, 20 October 1944, Loose Ends
[NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 171, Folder 32.60-2
Germany: Summary Reports (1945–1946)]

There are a number of things to be done by the Washington office which have not yet been done. 1. We need a final report on the installation at Watten. This is such an extraordinary enterprise that we must be sure that it was not designed for something in our field. 2. The questions for Mr. Baker should be answered. 3. The recent reports of Baltic explosions should be covered by Major Calvert as usual. 4. The de Boer matter is still open. Has Alsos contacted J. H. de Boer at Eindhoven? This should be done if it is still possible.

Dr. Rider comments:

Dr. Philip Morrison (U.S., 1915–2005), a Manhattan Project physicist, was stationed in the United States but specifically tasked with analyzing Allied intelligence data on the German nuclear program. Morrison’s publicly available documents indicate that up through 1945, he believed the German nuclear program was much more advanced and dangerous than better-known investigators such as Samuel Goudsmit and Boris Pash seemed to. Regarding the specific points in the memo above: 1. Even months after the Allied invasion of France, Morrison and other Allied officials were both awed (“extraordinary”) by the rocket-launching installation at Watten and worried that some of its features seemed to indicate it involved nuclear payloads for the rockets. 2. “Mr. Baker” was Niels Bohr, who was famously quite concerned about the progress of the wartime German nuclear program. 3. In October 1944, there were “recent reports of Baltic explosions” that were being investigated by the Manhattan Project as possible tests of a German atomic bomb. That information agrees well with the other sources in this section that reported the apparent test of an atomic bomb on the Baltic coast in October 1944. Morrison’s comment also makes it clear that Allied officials thought the German nuclear program could be sufficiently advanced to test an atomic bomb, and that U.S. Army Major Horace Calvert had a “usual” procedure for collecting and analyzing such data. Can the relevant Allied intelligence reports be located and declassified now? 4. Manhattan Project intelligence analysts were actively seeking information on the German nuclear program from the Dutch intelligence network, and Samuel Goudsmit was involved in at least some of those contacts, including with the physical chemist Dr. Jan Hendrik de Boer (Dutch, 1899–1971). See pp. 3469–3473.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like the OSS---the Office of Strategic Services, the forerunner of the modern CIA---agreed with Morrison that there might be something to see here, after all:

OSS Report No. FF-83. 21 October 1944. Atom Smashing Secret Weapon.
[NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 171, Folder 32.7003-2
GERMANY: US Wartime Positive Int. (July–Oct. 44)]

1. The Germans have completed a weapon which is founded on the principle of the disintegration of matter (Atomzertruemmerung). Experiments have been performed which have proved conclusive. The effect of this weapon is like that of a thunderbolt, naturally much magnified.

2. It would be possible to direct the effect of this weapon in any given direction. Possibly it is a question of a sort of projectile rather than of a weapon properly so-called. The radius of action is supposed to be about three kilometers. The devastation produced by this weapon is said to be such that Hitler plans to use it only in the air, against planes, for example. Nevertheless, the Germans say that in case of necessity they will not hesitate to use it on the ground as well. This weapon seems to be ready, in fact, for use upon the battlefield, but it still exists only in the form of a model. Germany needs—and this appears to be absolutely certain—a delay of at least three months. Practically speaking, it seems that only within five months could the weapon be ready for use. (This summary agrees with comments that Romersa attributed to Joseph Goebbels to the effect that Germany needed "six months" to complete serial production models of the weapon tested at Rugen in October, 1944. That was almost exactly how much longer the Third Reich lasted until its formal surrender, though organized resistance was largely kaput by second half of the preceding month -- WP.)

3. Different conversations which have taken place with industrial leaders in charge of concentration of production of German war material give the impression that Germany has unlimited confidence in the use of this weapon, which is to bring them certain victory.

4. Herr Schneider, one of the directors of the German factories called Deutsche Waffen u. Munitionsfabrik (a combine representing some fifteen factories and 250,000 workers) declared with a smile: “We shall gain the victory by new weapons, we are absolutely sure of that. Just now it is simply a case of gaining time, because the new arms will not be ready before three or four months. Bombing cannot keep us from building them. Our important factories where the assembly is carried out are all subterranean (a possible reference to Project Riese -- WP). An immense quantity of accessories is made in small lots everywhere throughout the country, so that bombing cannot interrupt the production. Our troops may retire within our frontiers. That does not matter, for nothing will be able to stand up for any length of time against these new weapons and we shall resume our overwhelming advance.”

5. Directors of certain other factories have shown the same inveterate optimism, aroused by the confidence which they have in the effects of these new weapons.

6. Names of certain industrialists with whom the interviews took place: Herr Schneider—Director of the Deutsche Waffen und Munitions-Fabrik. His German title is Wehrwirtschaftsbeauftragter (Superintendent of Armament Production) in the region of the Duchy of Baden and Wurtemberg. He has charge of the plants of the Karlsruhe region. Director Dr. Buesse, who directs the DWM factories at Karlsruhe. Dr. Quant, Administrator of a part of the DWM combine of factories.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POW guards in the United States reported hearing something about a German secret explosive that had something to do with heavy water. This information made its way up the chain of command to the upper reaches of the Manhattan Project:

Baltimore Branch Office, Manhattan Engineer District. 4 August 1944 [NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 171, Folder 32.7003-2

GERMANY: US Wartime Positive Int. (July–Oct. 44)]
BALTIMORE BRANCH OFFICE MANHATTAN ENGINEER DISTRICT BALTIMORE, MD. 4 AUG 1944
Subject: Positive Intelligence Secured from Prisoners of War at Camp Reynolds, Pa., Relative to “Secret Weapon”

Summary of Information:

The following information has been received from what is believed to be a reliable source relative to use by the Germans of a secret weapon. “According to informant, the Germans are at present working on an extremely secret explosive. Informant knows very little about it and states that it has something to do with ‘Heavy Water’ (Schweres Wasser). Experiments are conducted on an estate in Pomerania and it is alleged that this explosive is capable of destroying everything in a radius of several kilometers.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every one of the documents just quoted and cited are original, primary source papers from WWII itself which are held in publicly accessible archives in the present day. How many more would you like to see?

Sir,

It is obvious that based on previous posts I have made that a firm denial is the only possible answer here regardless of what you post. It is the final defense against exposure of various documents that show the Americans at least, had knowledge of the tests. You provide the detailed references to locate the documents in question but they will not be dealt with. It is, again, the only possible defense against a body of documentary evidence.

 

[Orionblamblam]

It is obvious that based on previous posts I have made that a firm denial is the only possible answer here regardless of what you post. It is the final defense against exposure of various documents that show the Americans at least, had knowledge of the tests. You provide the detailed references to locate the documents in question but they will not be dealt with. It is, again, the only possible defense against a body of documentary evidence.

Snerk.

I can't wait till the inevitable "they laughed at Galileo too."

 

[edwest4]

Galileo? I'm sure he wasn't part of the German atomic program. I can prove it.

 

[williamjpellas]

Everything else being equal (and it’s certainly not, as expanded on by other contributors above) comparisons with US nuclear tests versus what is being presented re: Nazi Germany are illuminating.
The US had one test and one test only of a representative weapon (Trinity) before approx. 6 weeks later they drop Little Boy.
While Nazi Germany, despite greatly less potential resources in this area, allegedly had multiple tests and (even as agreed by the presenters of all of this as fact) never got close to an actual operational use.
Despite Hitlers love/ almost psychological dependence on emergent vengeance weapons and desire to drag the world (including the now proven unworthy Germans) down with him.
Doesn’t this all sound rather far fetched and extremely unlikely? With not-even circumstantial to non existent evidence for any of this why the need to keep arguing this ahistorical nonsense, almost as an article of faith? And what faith would have you doing so?

Who said they never got close to an actual operational use? Not me.

Re: "...despite greatly less potential resources in this area", this is incorrect. In addition to the Joachimstahl uranium mine, WWII Germany is known to have dug at least 3,000 tons of uranium and thorium-bearing ores up out of the ground at a number of sites in the territory once controlled by the Third Reich. Large amounts of German uranium processing were noted in the Manhattan Project official history, in this case in occupied France:

Manhattan District History, Book I, Volume 14, Foreign Intelligence Supplement No. 1. Undated but apparently ∼1947. [https://ia802303.us.archive.org/26/items/ManhattanDistrictHistory/]

Paris Operations....

(4) During June, 1942, unusually large amounts of uranium products were sent to “Roges, m.b.H”. [...] Within this organization a Dr. Faust was in charge of uranium ores. The amounts of uranium products ordered by Roges consisted of about 115 tons of assorted refined and half refined materials. In addition they obtained 610 tons of crude material, 17 tons of ferro-uranium, and about 110 tons of impure products (rejects). Also, in January and May, 1943, respectively, 50 tons and 80 tons of refined products were delivered to them.

 

[williamjpellas]

The Russian documents are perfectly legitimate.

Except the actual Russian in this thread says they're bullcrap.

Uh huh. And why should we take his word for it? I have more Russian sources. Would that help? By the way, do you speak or write Russian yourself, yes or no? I don't, in case you or anyone else is wondering, but I mention this because you are putting up a straw man. You refuse to consider an English translation of original WWII primary source Soviet-Russian-GRU documents because, quote, "the actual Russian in this thread says they're bullcrap". I see. So, in your daily professional life, you only believe information that you procure directly, yourself, in a language that you speak, yourself. Is that right?

 

[edwest4]

The following is from Trotzdem by Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel:

29/3/44 while at tea with Hitler.

"He made particular mention to me of the V-weapons, which we have just begun to deploy. People should not overestimate the effect of these weapons at the present time, said Hitler, because the accuracy of the missiles was still very poor. But, he went on, this would not always be the case, because at the moment all he wanted was to have rockets which were able to fly without any problem. Later, Hitler said, there would be an explosive which was like no normal explosive such as we know at the moment, but something entirely different, which would be powerful enough to effect a positive outcome to the war. He said that the development of this explosive was far advanced, and that it would soon go into production. For me, all this is completely new territory, and I can't imagine what he is talking about. Later, I hear that the explosive power of the new rocket will be based on atomic power."






Top

 

[Orionblamblam]

The Russian documents are perfectly legitimate.

Except the actual Russian in this thread says they're bullcrap.

Uh huh. And why should we take his word for it? I

And why should we trust your "source?"

It's up to those making the positive claim - Nazis had nukes, Aurora is flying, Area 51 has aliens ships, etc. - to back up their claims. Without evidence, which your side has so far failed to present, the claim can be discounted out of hand.

 

[williamjpellas]

The Russian documents are perfectly legitimate.

Except the actual Russian in this thread says they're bullcrap.

Uh huh. And why should we take his word for it? I

And why should we trust your "source?"

It's up to those making the positive claim - Nazis had nukes, Aurora is flying, Area 51 has aliens ships, etc. - to back up their claims. Without evidence, which your side has so far failed to present, the claim can be discounted out of hand.

I have failed to present evidence. Got it.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Later, Hitler said, there would be an explosive which was like no normal explosive such as we know at the moment, but something entirely different, which would be powerful enough to effect a positive outcome to the war. He said that the development of this explosive was far advanced, and that it would soon go into production.

Wow. So... a politician known for bloviation, exaggeration and outright lies overstated the state of readiness of Nazi nukes? I'm shocked, SHOCKED.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I have failed to present evidence. Got it.

Correct. You've posted what so far seems to amount to science fiction.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Every single scrap of "evidence" so far presented here is weak, circumstantial, based on personal testimonies at best, but my favourite is this one.

9/3/44 while at tea with Hitler.

"He made particular mention to me of the V-weapons, which we have just begun to deploy. People should not overestimate the effect of these weapons at the present time, said Hitler, because the accuracy of the missiles was still very poor. But, he went on, this would not always be the case, because at the moment all he wanted was to have rockets which were able to fly without any problem. Later, Hitler said, there would be an explosive which was like no normal explosive such as we know at the moment, but something entirely different, which would be powerful enough to effect a positive outcome to the war. He said that the development of this explosive was far advanced, and that it would soon go into production. For me, all this is completely new territory, and I can't imagine what he is talking about. Later, I hear that the explosive power of the new rocket will be based on atomic power."

This only proves that Hitler told Rudel that Germany was developing nuclear weapons. Nobody is disputing that.

Perhaps you find "It would soon go into production" interesting. However, it really isn't. For one, someone could have lied to Hitler about their progress. Hitler could have lied to Rudel about their progress to give him hope of victory. Rudel could have misremembered Hitler's statement. "Soon" is vague enough it means nothing.

 

[williamjpellas]

Perhaps you find "It would soon go into production" interesting. However, it really isn't. For one, someone could have lied to Hitler about their progress. Hitler could have lied to Rudel about their progress to give him hope of victory. Rudel could have misremembered Hitler's statement. "Soon" is vague enough it means nothing.

Except that the "soon" is entirely consistent with statements made in many additional documents. I have cited and pasted a few of them to this point in time. I can keep going, though at some point I think forum etiquette and "unwritten rules" (or even some written ones!) come in for consideration. Meaning, I am happy to discuss this, but 1) don't want to overpost, and 2) Dr. Rider's book is the best and most comprehensive source, anyway.

Did you read any of the documents I posted upthread?

 

[edwest4]

William,

The consistent and only possible defense. Ignore the documents. Even though their location and file information is presented. Ignore the reports of tests.

The other option is to misdirect the reader. As if the reports you posted do not say what they do in fact say. Finally, just call all of them fakes.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Here's the first Russian memo. It was supplied to Rider by Rainer Karlsch but is apparently taken from

Riabev, ed. 2002. Atomnii Projekt SSR [Soviet Atomic Project] 1938–1945. Vol. 1, Part 2. This should be verifiable.

Riabev was writing a history of the Soviet bomb, and had no reason to fabricate this.

I wouldn't reject its authenticity out of hand.

General Ivan Ilyichev. 15 November 1944. Intelligence report to General Antonov and
Joseph Stalin. Archive of the President of the Russian Federation, 93-81 (45) 37.
Peoples’ Commissariat of Defense of the USSR
Chief Intelligence Department of the Red Army
15 November 1944
Moscow
To the Head of the Red Army General HQ
General of the Army, Comrade Antonov
Report:
Our trustworthy source in Germany reports:
“The Germans are preparing to conduct tests of a new secret weapon, which has a large destructive
power. The test explosion of a bomb of unusual construction is being prepared under highest secrecy
in Thuringia. For the preparations of the tests the local residents are supposed to be transported
away by an SS detail; the whole operation is reported to be undertaken in strictest secrecy.
The explosions are supposed to take place in a wooded area. For that, special roads to the presumptive
test site are being created. The bomb to be tested has a diameter of one and a half meters. It
consists of several hollow spheres that nest inside each other. It will be brought to the explosion
place with a transporter specially constructed for it. It is still unclear when the test is supposed to
take place, but the preparations are going at the maximum fastest pace.
CONCLUSION.
In the last months our source has reported more and more often about the feverish efforts of the
Germans to test ever more powerful weapons and their means of delivery. Probably these experiments
lead directly to an attempt of the Germans to actually carry out tests of atom bombs, about
whose existence we have only incomplete, scanty information.”
Head of Chief Intelligence Department
of the Red Army
Lieutenant General Ilyichev
Typed 4 copies
Copy Nr. 1 — Comrade Stalin
” Nr. 2 — Comrade Molotov
” Nr. 3 — Comrade Antonov
” Nr. 4 — into archive
8 pp.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

This first memo isn't terribly interesting. Its a report from a spy that a test of a new type of bomb is planned. It doesn't prove that the test occurred, that the test was successful, or that the test was related to a nuclear device.

 

[williamjpellas]

This first memo isn't terribly interesting. Its a report from a spy that a test of a new type of bomb is planned. It doesn't prove that the test occurred, that the test was successful, or that the test was related to a nuclear device.

The first memo states that the test is pending, and the second memo states that it was actually carried out. The second one obviously provides far more detail about the weapons themselves, but together they demonstrate that Soviet intelligence had penetrated the innermost circles of wartime German secret weapon research and development---a remarkable achievement---and/or that there was a very prominent mole or traitor in this part of the overall Nazi war effort.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I haven't got to that one yet.

 

[williamjpellas]

The most conclusive proof that Hitler Germany didnt have a working bomb is that they didnt use it on the Eastern Front or in a Wagnerian gesture in Berlin.
Didnt help that all the best scientists in Germany left pdq when the Nazis took power.

Actually, he considered, and probably wanted, to do both.

In many ways this comment gets us to the heart of Dr. Rider's contrarian historical narrative. At the risk of sounding pedantic, it is necessary for me to provide some background so that people reading this can grasp the origins of this version of events.

In the late 1990s - early 2000s, there were three (3) men who came forward to make public statements regarding their respective nations' nuclear weapons projects during WWII. These were: former Japanese Army Lt. Col. Tatsusaburo Suzuki, ex-Manhattan Project chief of counterintelligence, Col. John Lansdale, and Heinrich Himmler's wartime chief adjutant in the SS, Werner Grothmann.


Tatsusaburo Suzuki

http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/books/Rider_Tsetusuo_Wakabayashi_Revealed.pdf

US Army Colonel John Lansdale

Colonel John Lansdale, Jr. on JSTOR

William R. Arnold, Colonel John Lansdale, Jr., American Intelligence Journal, Vol. 35, No. 1, Honoring Our Intelligence Heroes: The Historical Heritage of NMIF Awards (2018), pp. 74-78

www.jstor.org

SS Obersturmbannfuhrer Werner Grothmann

Werner Grothmann - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

All three of these wartime military figures revealed very sensitive and virtually unknown aspects of both Allied and Axis nuclear weapons research and development, and all three did so 50 or more years after the end of WWII and shortly before their respective deaths. Lansdale's information was comparatively less surprising than what was stated by the other men, though he still provided considerable detail about the fate of the cargo of the German submarine U-234, which turned up in an American port loaded with uranium in some form that was intended for delivery to Japan.

It was the other two who finally lifted the veil of secrecy surrounding the Axis projects. Beginning with his 1995 press conference in Tokyo, Suzuki's disclosures largely corroborated and expanded upon the most well-known account of the Japanese pursuit of the bomb, Robert Wilcox's very good book, Japan's Secret War. It fell to Grothmann to provide the most astonishing and unnerving details, in an interview he gave in 2002 to his neighbor, Wolf Krotzky.

Although there are significant caveats to Grothmann's testimony, nearly all of the most substantive claims he made to Krotzky and thus to posterity have been at least corroborated if not proven by subsequent archival finds, some of them by Dr. Rider himself, others by researchers who were digging and later publishing in the time between Grothmann's death in 2002 and the appearance of Forgotten Creators in 2020. Grothmann described the exact timeline and chronological order of the four (4) known purported wartime tests of prototype German nuclear weapons. He also gave information about their general configuration, the types of fissile fuel for which they were designed, and also their intended uses, which included both strategic and tactical - battlefield deployments. Some of the details he provided do not paint a flattering portrait of WWII German science, military, and industrial capabilities. For example, he stated that there was a constant shortage of fissile material, and also said that obsessive and paranoid SS security measures cost the Germans time in completing their bombs.

Dr. Rider's book, inasmuch as it is concerned with the German nuclear weapons program, is to a significant extent an investigation of Grothmann's claims, just as Wilcox's work began with an unexpected report (David Snell's famous 1946 article) of surprisingly advanced Japanese progress towards operational atomic bombs.

 

[Dilandu]

You speak, write, and read Cyrillic Russian then, I take it? You've read the Russian language originals and can offer documentary proof of forgeries and the like?

Yes, as Orionblamblam stated above, I kinda do that) Many times per day, usually) Far more often, than English, actually - must have something with me living in Moscow, I suppose.

Show me them) I'm willing to bet that nobody actually saw the supposed "originals")

 

[Dilandu]

It has been reported that Luigi Romersa, an Italian correspondent during World War II, was personally dispatched by the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini (1883-1945) to the island of Rugen to witness the weapons test. Romersa (1917-2007) was the last known witness, at least to have come forward, to what he and some historians have said was the detonation of a Nazi nuclear device. In an article by John Hooper in The Guardian dated September 30, 2005, Romersa, relating his experience, is quoted as saying:

While for many Americans Rugen is obviously "wild, remote place, very far from civilization", in fact, it's a small (926 km2), tightly populated island, connected with mainland by road bridges, with a population about 20.000. How exactly those population was supposed to collectively ignore atomic test?

 

[williamjpellas]

You speak, write, and read Cyrillic Russian then, I take it? You've read the Russian language originals and can offer documentary proof of forgeries and the like?

Yes, as Orionblamblam stated above, I kinda do that) Many times per day, usually) Far more often, than English, actually - must have something with me living in Moscow, I suppose.

Show me them) I'm willing to bet that nobody actually saw the supposed "originals")

As previously stated in this thread, photos of the original Soviet-Russian-GRU intelligence documents are found on pages 3281 and 3287 in Forgotten Creators. A photo of the first of General Ilyichev's reports was included by @overscan in post number 124 above.

 

[williamjpellas]

It has been reported that Luigi Romersa, an Italian correspondent during World War II, was personally dispatched by the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini (1883-1945) to the island of Rugen to witness the weapons test. Romersa (1917-2007) was the last known witness, at least to have come forward, to what he and some historians have said was the detonation of a Nazi nuclear device. In an article by John Hooper in The Guardian dated September 30, 2005, Romersa, relating his experience, is quoted as saying:

While for many Americans Rugen is obviously "wild, remote place, very far from civilization", in fact, it's a small (926 km2), tightly populated island, connected with mainland by road bridges, with a population about 20.000. How exactly those population was supposed to collectively ignore atomic test?

What was its population more than three quarters of a century ago, and what military security measures were in place on the island during WWII?

 

[Dilandu]

As previously stated in this thread, photos of the original Soviet-Russian-GRU intelligence documents are found on pages 3281 and 3287 in Forgotten Creators. A photo of the first of General Ilyichev's reports was included by @overscan in post number 124 above.

Sigh. Then find and show me them. It's you, who advanced the strange notion; it's you who are supposed to prove it, not me wasting time for some obscure collection of Nazi fairytales. That's how science works, you know - the one who advanced the thesis is expected to prove it.

 

[Dilandu]

What was its population more than three quarters of a century ago, and what military security measures were in place on the island during WWII?

About 20.000, if I recall correctly. There were no significant military activity on Rugen during the war. Nazi started to build an enormous seaview resort here, for 20.000 vacationers, but the project was halted, then cancelled in 1939, and half-complete buildings were used as training barracks. Mostly, island was used as evacuation place for civilians.

 

[williamjpellas]

As previously stated in this thread, photos of the original Soviet-Russian-GRU intelligence documents are found on pages 3281 and 3287 in Forgotten Creators. A photo of the first of General Ilyichev's reports was included by @overscan in post number 124 above.

Sigh. Then find and show me them. It's you, who advanced the strange notion; it's you who are supposed to prove it, not me wasting time for some obscure collection of Nazi fairytales. That's how science works, you know - the one who advanced the thesis is expected to prove it.

I just cited the page numbers in Dr. Rider's book, which you can go look at right now, free of charge. In addition, @overscan posted a photo of one of them. That is all the information you need. There is no need for me to copy and paste when they are readily available.

 

[Dilandu]

I just cited the page numbers in Dr. Rider's book, which you can go look at right now, free of charge. In addition, @overscan posted a photo of one of them. That is all the information you need. There is no need for me to copy and paste when they are readily available.

Yeah.

As I mentioned above:

* It could not be addressed to Antonov in November 1944. It's official document, so it could not be made with such obvious mistake.
* There is no number. Data, but not number. Isn't it strange quite a bit? Also, there is no incoming number.
* The "совершенно секретно" (fully secret) text was not supposed to be typed. It was supposed to be stamped over the document.

Here is how real documents looks like:

 

[Michel Van]

Williamipellas

What is your source material you're quoting from ?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The second memo.

General Ivan Ilyichev. 23 March 1945. Intelligence report to General Antonov and
Joseph Stalin. Archive of the President of the Russian Federation, 93-81 (45) 37.
Peoples’ Commissariat of Defense of the USSR
Chief Intelligence Department of the Red Army
[2]3 March 1945
Moscow
To the Head of the Red Army General HQ
General of the Army, Comrade Antonov
Report:
Our trustworthy source from Germany reports:
“The Germans have in recent times carried out two large-capacity bomb explosions in Thuringia.
The explosions took place in a forest area, under conditions of strictest secrecy. Trees fell at a
distance of 500–600 meters from the center of the explosion. Buildings and fortifications specially
constructed for the tests have been destroyed.
Prisoners of war who were near the epicenter of the explosion died, often without leaving a trace.
Prisoners of war who were in the area beyond the center of the explosion have burns on their face
and body, the strength of which depends on their position in relation to the epicenter of the
explosion. The tests were carried out in a remote deserted area. The regime of secrecy at the test
site was at maximum level. Entrance and exit from the territory are by special pass only. SS soldiers
have surrounded the area of tests and interrogated any person approaching the area.
The bomb, supposedly filled with uranium 235 and weighing approximately two tons, was brought
to the test site on a specially constructed truck. Dewars of liquid oxygen were delivered together
with it. The bomb was permanently guarded by 20 guards with dogs. The bomb explosion was accompanied
by a large explosive wave and high temperature. In addition, a massive radioactive effect
was observed. The bomb is a sphere with a diameter of 130 cm.
The bomb consists of:
1. High-voltage discharge tube, which is charged by special generators
2. A sphere made of metal uranium 235
3. A delay mechanism
4. Protective casing
5. Explosive substance
6. Detonating mechanism
7. Steel casing
All parts of the bomb fit inside each other.

Initiator or bomb fuse.
Consists of a special tube, which creates fast neutrons. It is charged by special generators, which
create high voltage inside the tube. As a result, fast neutrons attack active material.

Active bomb material.
Active bomb material is uranium 235. It represents a sphere with an opening into which an initiator
is inserted. Once this is done, the opening is sealed by a cork made of uranium 235.

Protective casing.
The uranium sphere is encased in a protective aluminum casing, which is covered by a layer of
cadmium. This significantly slows down thermal neutrons emanating from uranium 235, which can
cause premature detonation.

Explosive matter.
After the layer of cadmium it is placed inside explosives that consist of porous TNT saturated with
liquid oxygen; TNT is made up of bars of a specially chosen shape. The inner surface of the bars
has a spherical curvature, which is the same as that of the external surface of the cadmium layer.
Each of the bars is supplied with one detonator or two electrical fuses.

Casing.
TNT is covered by a protective layer made of a light aluminum alloy. A blasting mechanism is
attached on top of this casing.

Exterior casing.
An exterior casing of armored steel is installed above the blasting mechanism.

Fairing.
A fairing made of a light alloy can be installed on top of the armored casing for future installation
on a rocket of the V-type.

Bomb assembly.
The sphere, which consists of metal uranium, is placed inside a protective casing, which consists
of aluminum, covered in a layer of cadmium, so that the opening in the sphere coinciding with the
opening is sealed off by a uranium cork. After this the aluminum sphere, covered in cadmium, is
sealed off by a cork, on top of which the last bar of TNT is placed. Next, liquid oxygen is pumped
through the opening inside a protective casing, which covers the TNT. After this the bomb is ready
for deployment.

Bomb ignition.
The bomb ignition is carried out with the help of a high-voltage discharge tube. It forms a flow
of neutrons, which attack the active material. When the flow of neutrons impacts upon uranium,
element 93 fissions, which speeds up the creation of a chain reaction. Next, the detonating mechanism
detonates the explosive matter, after which a shock from the explosion of the external layer
of TNT mixed with liquid oxygen takes place, which is directed toward the center. This allows the
uranium to reach a critical mass.
Ahead of this, before the explosion, the uranium sphere is irradiated with gamma-rays, the energy
of which does not exceed 6 million electron volts, which many times increases its explosive qualities.

CONCLUSION.
Without doubt, the Germans are carrying out tests of a bomb of high destructive force. In the
event of their successful conclusion and production of such bombs in sufficient quantities, they will
have weapons capable of slowing down our advance.

Head of Chief Intelligence Department
of the Red Army
Lieutenant General Ilyichev

Typed 4 copies
Copy Nr. 1 — Comrade Stalin
” Nr. 2 — Comrade Molotov
” Nr. 3 — Comrade Antonov
” Nr. 4 — into archive
16 pp.

 

[Arjen]

I am confused. Mr Romersa claimed to have attended a test on Rügen, on the Baltic coast. The memos say tests were conducted in Thüringen, a landlocked part of central Germany. Tests on Rügen AND in Thüringen?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

@Dilandu There's no reason to believe these memos are faked. Some or all of them were apparently first published in a Russian book on the Soviet Atomic Bomb by Lev D. Riabev - formerly in charge of the Soviet nuclear warhead producing agency. Finding a copy of that would be useful rather than a secondary source (Rider) quoting a secondary source (Karlsch) quoting a primary source (original archival documents edited by Riabev).

However, everything hangs on the credibility of the source. Its specific and detailed and yet technically some details seem quite wrong. There are many examples of reports like this in official archives referring to things that never happened, planes that didn't exist, etc.

It seems that Physicist Igor Kurchatov (director of the Soviet atom bomb project) was curious enough about this report to want to investigate further and locate and interview the source - but he did not believe an actual atom bomb was tested.

 

[Dilandu]

There's no reason to believe these memos are faked

The first one is obvious fake, since its addressed to a wrong person, and contain no identification numbers at all.

Some or all of them were apparently first published in a Russian book on the Soviet Atomic Bomb by Lev D. Riabev - formerly in charge of the Soviet nuclear warhead producing agency.

I reviewed this book - "About the creation of first motherland's atomic bomb" - and find no mention of those documents. There were mentions about allegedly German atomic warhead for V-2 in 1945, but Kurchatov stated, that he is not sure it was actually about atomic weapon, because data is very confusing.