Fritz X Bomb further development.

[klem]

Often one reads in books on the wunder waffen always the same thing otherwise reformulated with the same sources, on the web also the subjects are repeated tirelessly with the same pictures as for example any research on the web relating to the fritz bomb X-1 exhibits the usual pictures, however one also reads that Krammer continued his development and the series x-devices also and then nothing more except sometimes some thin lines on the (X-2,3,5,6). In NACA TM N° 1210 p 35 ,there is this picture but its mention says "the German figure from which this figure was made was indistinguishable"(1) but it is always a plus to have an idea on the later development of the fritz x. The mass-produced version corresponds to the aerodynamic design of the DVL of 1939. The DVL did not stop with this first project of 1939, but continued to improve the bomb as it appears in the attached picture. This version was tested at the DVL. The flight tests confirmed its good functioning. However, there is a clear perspective of the 1942 fritz x in the picture (2),the projected model of the 1942 for a high-speed bomb had the elevator and rudder integrated into the rear tail, attached in (Lenkkörper und zielweisungsgeräte der deutschen Luftwaffe-Part I - Wolfgang-D. Schröer - Berlin 2005/2014- s. 81).
Several derivatives of the Fritz X were developed and tested as experimental models only.
The X-2 resembled the Fritz-X. It was based on the X-1 with better aerodynamics. It had the same bomb (SD 1400X) and the same wings as the X-1 with a pronounced sweep. Control, control surfaces, spoiler design, aerodynamics have been improved as well as the bomb received an increase in the length of the nose.
The X-3 generally resembled the Fritz-X with two wings and had better trajectory stability thanks to the planned auto-rotation around the longitudinal axis. It was developed for control at the speed of sound, featuring a non-roll-stabilized control system and swept-back wings and tail surfaces; it reached impact velocities close to the speed of sound which therefore did not limit the drop height.
X-5 made as an experimental prototype had a weight of 2500 kg. designed around the armor-piercing, high-explosive variant armor-piercing warhead. (3.4)
X-6 Further development of the X-5 with the same weight The X-6 was based on the high-explosive SC 2500 bomb.
The Peter X developed by Rheinmetall-Borsig was designed as an experimental prototype based on the Fritz X concept was also an air-to-ground controlled version. Several configurations were planned by Krammer which seem to be quite different from those already known, at least that is what appears from a design published in a paper by Guenter Ernst "Spoiler control of missilles" in (AGARD-First Guided Missiles Seminar Munich,Germany April,1956.p46).(5).

 

[Dilandu]

Very interesting! Thank you!

P.S. Interesting, that they apparently never even tried to implement any kind of alternative guidance (while USSR, obtaining Fritz-X after war, immediately started to experiment with fitting a infrared seeker on it)

 

[Sgt_Miller]

Have just known about Fritz-X derivatives, this is amazing. I always wondered whether the Germans ever considered using different weight classes of bombs as the basis of their guided bombs or not. As for the guidance system, it seems that they never considered anything beyond RF or wire guidance as practical or mass-producible.

 

[Dilandu]

As for the guidance system, it seems that they never considered anything beyond RF or wire guidance as practical or mass-producible.

Yep, seems like that. Nazi weren't competent in electronics.

P.S. French have a strong suspicion, that control system for Fritz-X and Hs 293 was stolen from France in 1940 - from the BHT-38 guided glide bomb project. It actually explain, why Germans weren't able to develope a new control system, after the original one became useless due to jamming...

 

[Dilandu]

USSR tried to make Fritz-X more efficient, by mating the body & control system of German bomb with infrared seeker from experimental Soviet homing bomb SB1-M (which was tested in 1944-19545 with some sucess, but was deemed too lightweight to efficiently destroy intended targets). The result was SNAB-3000 Krab (Crab). It was tested extensively in early 1950s, but preformed below expectations - only a very "hot" targets, like steel mills, could be reliably hit. The project was considered outdated (due to being 1940s tech) by 1956:

 

[Grzesio]

The 3rd photo shows SB 1000, not SC 2500.

Interesting, that they apparently never even tried to implement any kind of alternative guidance (while USSR, obtaining Fritz-X after war, immediately started to experiment with fitting a infrared seeker on it)

Linienfunkgeraet, Netzhaut, Ofen, Projekt VG 1136/1, Radieschen, possibly Silpyramid - just to name a few homing heads for guided bombs.

 

[Dilandu]

Linienfunkgeraet, Netzhaut, Ofen, Projekt VG 1136/1, Radieschen, possibly Silpyramid - just to name a few homing heads for guided bombs.

Could you elaborate, please?

 

[klem]

Linienfunkgeraet, Netzhaut, Ofen, Projekt VG 1136/1, Radieschen, possibly Silpyramid - just to name a few homing heads for guided bombs.

Could you elaborate, please?

These must be homing heads for guided bombs X-1 with Radieschen, but we are still in the X-1 version.

 

[klem]

Target-seeking heads for heat sources of such systems, their development began in the early 1930s. At the time of the development of the Fritz x, two more modern target-guided versions were developed which were based on the idea of passive radiolocation, i.e., according to today's nomenclature, counter-radiolocation (the system searches for opposing radars). Information about the "Windhund" system is very scarce, but a little more about the "Radieschen" system. One of them reacted to the Funk-/Radarstrahlen (ZSG Radieschen) created in Forschungseinrichtungen der Post could be developed to the end. Some of the finished devices were integrated into the Fritz-X guided bombs. The device weighed between 15 and 17 kg and was based on the Strassburg receiver. It was characterised by a very long range, up to 100 km for a large target. This version was tested in August 1944 at the Leba air force proving ground. The second version (ZSG Offen), reacted to heat sources (Wärmequellen). This version with the thermal system was to be used to destroy the British steelworks.
The engineers used the passive guidance systems on the Fritz-X as well as the (Netzhaut-Thermalsystem). With these two systems the Fritz-X adventure ended, the other systems were tested on other missiles.
Not all of these systems were intended for surface-to-air missiles. The first ones created were intended for "explosive boats", "automatic" variants with target search systems were already designed. In this context, two thermal guidance systems were created, codenamed Tasso and Linse, the latter being an evolution of the former. The devices were developed in the Berlin factory of the Gema company with the participation of the companies CPVA (Dänisch-Nienhof), AEG (Berlin) and Elac (Kiel).
Tasso, the oldest of the systems, on which work had been interrupted in 1943, was relatively simple, if only because the field of view could only be scanned in one plane, along the horizon. The lens system developed in 1944 was more complicated. The optical system was only 50 mm in diameter (specular lens). The disadvantage of the diameter was, however, partly compensated by the enormous size of the targets. In the autumn of 1944, the Tertige system was tested on a Minenleger ship. In the last year of the war, other concepts were developed, such as the system of a private research company codenamed "Pinsel" by Dr Rembauske. An optical system with a single detector and a spiral scan. Some prototypes were tested shortly before the end of the war (Igor Witowski. Die Wahrheit ueber die Wunderfaffe.Teil 2 . Geheime Waffentechnologie im Dritten Reich)

 

[Basil]

As for the guidance system, it seems that they never considered anything beyond RF or wire guidance as practical or mass-producible.

Yep, seems like that. Nazi weren't competent in electronics.

P.S. French have a strong suspicion, that control system for Fritz-X and Hs 293 was stolen from France in 1940 - from the BHT-38 guided glide bomb project. It actually explain, why Germans weren't able to develope a new control system, after the original one became useless due to jamming...

It is not necessarily appropriate to use the term "Nazi scientist." The "Nazis" represented the political regime. Scientists and technicians were in most cases not political actors and personally often also opposed to the regime, although open communication about it could be life-threatening.

And that the Germans were not competent in electronic fields is simply wrong. At the beginning of the war, they were even world leaders in some areas, although this lead was lost due to the regime's short-sighted strategy of stopping all research, e.g. in the field of centimeter waves, while at the same time more and more scientists were drafted to the front. Towards the end of the war, however, Germany tried to catch up quite rapidly with the USA/UK in terms of development - at least at the laboratory level. In the field of infrared targeting, Germany maintained a certain lead until the end of the war.

It is recommended to read books of people active in this field at that time, such as Fritz Trenkle, to get an overview on this.

 

[Dilandu]

It is not necessarily appropriate to use the term "Nazi scientist." The "Nazis" represented the political regime. Scientists and technicians were in most cases not political actors and personally often also opposed to the regime, although open communication about it could be life-threatening.

What I meant was more about Nazi regime general trend toward anti-intellectualism, distrust of scientists, and belief in "superhuman insight" over any kind of scientific method. The general chaos that Nazi preferred to induce - multiple conflicting (not merely competing!) laboratories and companies, doing the same job - did not help them also. So, my comment was more about "screwed up Nazi organization of things" than about German scientists.

 

[Dilandu]

while at the same time more and more scientists were drafted to the front.

Which also was utterly insane policy - as far as I aware, nearly every other participant took efforts to preserve scientific personnel.

 

[Nicknick]

As for the guidance system, it seems that they never considered anything beyond RF or wire guidance as practical or mass-producible.

Yep, seems like that. Nazi weren't competent in electronics.

P.S. French have a strong suspicion, that control system for Fritz-X and Hs 293 was stolen from France in 1940 - from the BHT-38 guided glide bomb project. It actually explain, why Germans weren't able to develope a new control system, after the original one became useless due to jamming...

No, what you mean is propaby the image transfer system of the Tonne/Seedorf system, this was in fact also not stolen, but developed by a French company for the Germans.<It wasn’t all about Résistance in Vichy France...

You can reed it in the link of Klemm

 

[Dilandu]

No, what you mean is propaby the image transfer system of the Tonne/Seedorf system, this was in fact also not stolen, but developed by a French company for the Germans.<It wasn’t all about Résistance in Vichy France...

Well, I merely said what I read in several sources - that Maurice Hurel and Jean Turck (French engineers, who worked pre-war on the BHT-38 glide bomb) suspected that control system of their design and German Hs 293 bomb are too similar to explain as mere coincidence. The "Les dossiers secrets de la marine: Londres-Vichy 1940-1944" stated that Vichy government gave the Hurel bomb designs to Germans, but personally I doubt that; Hs 293 have no similarities with BHT-38, so it much more probable that Germans merely captured the guidance system blueprints, and adapted them (like they done with Kegresse tracked mine, which became the inspiration for "Goliath")

 

[Nicknick]

You might have heared the term of convergent evolution. Just like in biology, many things are invented independently from each other. The radar e.g. was invented 1904 in Germany (and even tested and promoted) but totally forgotten by the outbreak of the war. Than it was new invented in Germany and GB again. When the Germans received the information about the Norden Bomb seight, they found out that it worked according to the same principles as the Lotfernrohr. The jet propulsion was also invented independently in Germany and GB, same is true for many other ideas. I was also affected when I invented a turbocharger intake system and contacted a university only to find out that they just about to start a research project about the same idea.

If someone claims it was stolen because he had a similar idea before, it means nothing.

 

[Dilandu]

You might have heared the term of convergent evolution.

Yep, I knew that (I'm the biologist, after all. Wheat selection).

If someone claims it was stolen because he had a similar idea before, it means nothing.

Well, again, according to the sources, the similarities between the systems was such, that French engineers (who escaped to Britain in 1943) were immediately able to suggest countermeasures based on their knowledge of the BHT-38 controls. Which - if true, of course! - indicates much more than just a similarity of ideas.

And I must point out that Germans weren't beyond stealing other guys ideas. In case of the "Goliath", for example, Germans fully admitted that they reverse-engineered captured Kegresse prototypes of tracked mine. So... it isn't exactly far-fetched to suspect, that Germans may use French designs to boost their radio guidance development.

P.S. Again, I do not insist that it's what exactly happened. I merely point out that A - there IS such suspicion, B - it is supported by many sources (i.e. it is not just mine invention), C - it's actually explain a lot of things quite nicely. For example, why Germans weren't able to develope a different radio-control system, when their available one became jammed.

 

[Nicknick]

You will allways find someone who claimed that his idea was stolen, once that an idea had become succseefull. Take two teams of five avarage engineers, tell them exactly which problem to solve and give them 2 weeks time. Both teams will end up with many very similar solutions.

Of course, whenever you have a chance to learn from your enemy and you can steal his ideas, you will do that (take a look at the famous Jerry cans...). If the Germans admitted that they reengineerd the Kegresse prototypes, they would have done so with French control system.

A thustworthy source would be something from the other side, like any reference in a German document. I read a very detailed artikel whith many references about the development of Fritx-X and there was no hint of a French influence. In contrast, a similar artikel about the HS.293 describes exactly the French partwhich was the image transmitting system which was developed by a French company for the Germans. You wrote yourself, that there was no attempt of hiding it, when an idea could be stolen. Furthermore, no one was afraid or to proud to mention any kind of French systems in the internal documents. If the control system of Fritz-X would be based on French technology, it would have been documented.

The Americans for example, also fully admitted that they stole the idea of the liquid fueled rockets from Germany.

Did you recognize, that the American guided bomb looked exactly like Fritz X? This was just the case, because it came out to be the best logic solution to the specific task.

I made a lot paten researches and I can garanty, that by far more than 50 % of all new ideas have been invented.

 

[Dilandu]

Did you recognize, that the American guided bomb looked exactly like Fritz X?

Actually no, it didn't.

But I get your point. Must admit, I have quite an "anti-wunderwaffe" bias; the constant claims that "Germans invented everything, other just copied" (and, according to the Russian classic, made the Moon also) made me extremely skeptical to the notion of Nazi Germany actually inventing anything. I suppose, I bent too hard to the opposite, though.

 

[Nicknick]

I didn’t mean this bomb, there is another one out here...

Fine, let’s end this battle. I’m an engineer, but I have always been interested in biology also. I see many similarities in the development/evolution process. Being an engineer, I can be an active part of the progress, but Biologist will be more and more able to do so as well (for the good and the bad..).

 

[Dilandu]

Fine, let’s end this battle.

As I said, I see your point and I admit that I have a tendency to push too hard in the direction I consider to be "right".

I didn’t mean this bomb, there is another one out here...

Er, the direct analogue of Fritz-X was supposed to be Gargoyle, but it have literally nothing similar with Fritz-X in appearance. Could you clarify?

 

[Nicknick]

try to find it, maybe I was confusing something...

 

[Richard N]

Radical Rocketry ( https://www.facebook.com/Radical.Rocketry ) makes a large Fritz-X modeled as a flying rocket from 3D printed parts, CNC cut plywood, and rolled paper model rocket body tubes. Related to the Fritz-X, they also make a large 2 stage Rheintochter and many rarely modeled subjects.

https://www.facebook.com/profile/100085518003348/search/?q=fritz

 

[Dilandu]

Related to the Fritz-X, they also make a large 2 stage Rheintochter and many rarely modeled subjects.

(grumbling) Rheintochter is rarely modelled? "Bat" is rarely modelled. "Brakemine" is rarely modelled. "Ke-Go" is rarely modelled.

 

[robunos]

I didn’t mean this bomb, there is another one out here...

I think you mean this one :-

ASM-A-1 Tarzon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Richard N]

Related to the Fritz-X, they also make a large 2 stage Rheintochter and many rarely modeled subjects.

(grumbling) Rheintochter is rarely modelled? "Bat" is rarely modelled. "Brakemine" is rarely modelled. "Ke-Go" is rarely modelled.

To my knowledge, the Fritz-X and Rheintochter are rarely modeled as flying model rockets. I build stuff that flies as opposed to stuff that sits on a table or shelf.

I'm not sure how to read your grumbling statement. Are you grumbling about them having been or not been modeled?

 

[Nicknick]

I didn’t mean this bomb, there is another one out here...

I think you mean this one :-

ASM-A-1 Tarzon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 696057

cheers,
Robin.

It might have been this, despite it looks significant differently with the strange belt....

I mean I"ve seen something on Youtube were a small team tried to rebuilt a Fritz-X (with totally different electronics)

Maybe Fritz-X could become an accepted surname in North Corea?

North Korea forcing citizens to change their names to sound more ideological

Names meaning “loyalty” or “bomb” are encouraged instead of “loved one” or “super beauty”

www.rfa.org

 

[T. A. Gardner]

You will allways find someone who claimed that his idea was stolen, once that an idea had become succseefull. Take two teams of five avarage engineers, tell them exactly which problem to solve and give them 2 weeks time. Both teams will end up with many very similar solutions.

Of course, whenever you have a chance to learn from your enemy and you can steal his ideas, you will do that (take a look at the famous Jerry cans...). If the Germans admitted that they reengineerd the Kegresse prototypes, they would have done so with French control system.

A thustworthy source would be something from the other side, like any reference in a German document. I read a very detailed artikel whith many references about the development of Fritx-X and there was no hint of a French influence. In contrast, a similar artikel about the HS.293 describes exactly the French partwhich was the image transmitting system which was developed by a French company for the Germans. You wrote yourself, that there was no attempt of hiding it, when an idea could be stolen. Furthermore, no one was afraid or to proud to mention any kind of French systems in the internal documents. If the control system of Fritz-X would be based on French technology, it would have been documented.

The Americans for example, also fully admitted that they stole the idea of the liquid fueled rockets from Germany.

Did you recognize, that the American guided bomb looked exactly like Fritz X? This was just the case, because it came out to be the best logic solution to the specific task.

I made a lot paten researches and I can garanty, that by far more than 50 % of all new ideas have been invented.

Actually, that's untrue. The US simply had little interest and reason to waste resources on developing a large ballistic missile prior to getting atomic bombs. The US already had liquid fuel rocket motors for smaller applications like JATO units, smaller guided missiles (see for example Project Gorgon), and the like. They tried rocket boosted fighter planes similar to what the Germans tried (the Russians did also) in late 1944 and into 1945 independent of any German technology.

Other examples include:

The Wasserfall SAM was NOT the progenitor of postwar SAM's in other nations, particularly the US. In the US, a total of just 6 Wasserfall clones (a US version) early in Project Hermes were fired before GE and the US Army ended development of it as a SAM. The Nike Ajax owes ZERO to German technology in its design. The same is true of the USAF's MX 606 GAPA. If anything, outside the US Army's ballistic missile program (Hermes and Redstone), German wartime missile technology had near zero impact.

Something like 7 different people discovered the area rule for supersonic aircraft more or less simultaneously (within a few years of each other). They didn't know about the other's work on this. Thus, you have German, American, and British engineers coming up with the same idea about the same time. This wasn't copying, but rather parallel development work on the same problem using similar methods and getting similar results.

Radar is like this. A number of nations simultaneously invented radar sets for various purposes. Interestingly, the Japanese were the first to introduce a cavity magnetron for use in a radar. Their version was much lower powered than the British one, but it worked and they beat everyone to developing it. But because their radar industry was miniscule (less than 1000 total employees divided about evenly between the Army and Navy working almost entirely independently), it took them nearly three years to go from a prototype to a working version that could be used operationally.

In the Netherlands, they invented a gun laying radar (the Hazemeyer) prior to Germany invading. The prototypes and technical data were handed over to the British who copied it to get their version of it at sea--often referred to disparagingly as the "Antlered beast" for its characteristic wobbling about in use and propensity to breakdown.

In infrared technology, the US and Russia were on par with Germany in 1939 and stayed that way. German technology in this area offered little or nothing of value in moving the field forward. Germany in 1939 had gotten most of their technology in this field from Hungarian engineers...

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I didn’t mean this bomb, there is another one out here...

I think you mean this one :-

ASM-A-1 Tarzon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 696057

cheers,
Robin.

And of course, in true American fashion, they made it bigger...

And, if a British bomber could carry one Grand Slam, the Americans found a way to carry two...

 

[Dilandu]

It might have been this, despite it looks significant differently with the strange belt....

It's a circular wing - to produce lifting force in the desired direction, so the bomb could be guided more easily. The TARZON project was a Tallboy bomb (American licensed version) equipped with RAZON (Range And Azimuth ONly) command guidance kit. But the RAZON kit was designed for 900-kg bombs, not for 5-ton bombs. It's control surfaces weren't large enough to prodive guidance for such heavy projectile. So, to avoid making rudders too big, the USAF engineers put an omnidirectional circular ring along the bomb's center of gravity.

 

[Scapaflow]

I didn’t mean this bomb, there is another one out here...

It seems to me that the American response to fritz x was the azon bomb.

 

[Dilandu]

It seems to me that the American response to fritz x was the azon bomb.

No, AZON program have nothing to do with German guided weapon projects. The direct response to Fritz-X was a Gargoyle rocket-powered glide bomb. It was designed exactly as a response to Fritz-X formidable armor-piercing performance, to do the same job - destroy large armored warships - but the solution was different. While Fritz-X was more or less vertically falling guided bomb, which relied on its mass and gravity to pierce armored decks, the Gargoyle was a standoff glide bomb with rocket booster in tail. The idea was, that it would glide toward target from standoff range, and accelerate with the help of rocket to gain velocity.

P.S. There was also the shaped-charge version of RAZON bomb designed to perform same function - punch through battleships armor - but as far as I know, it was only tested on staic rig (albeit quite impressivly)

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I didn’t mean this bomb, there is another one out here...

It seems to me that the American response to fritz x was the azon bomb.

Azon wasn't a "response," but rather a parallel invention. The AZON bomb was developed primarily to make bombing bridges, a difficult target to hit, easier. The bomb could only be controlled left-right. The idea was for the bomber to fly a course that took it over the bridge along its length. The bombardier would then control the AZON bomb to correct its deflection to land it on the bridge. Range forward or back was irrelevant so long as it hit the bridge.

The AZON was actively deployed to Italy and Burma and used in numerous bombing missions. Far more were dropped than Fritz X.

The closest thing the US has to Fritz X is probably the Pelican.

It was a forerunner of the Bat radar homing glide bomb.

The other bomb that had much the same intent in the US inventory as Fritz X, but wasn't guided, was the Disney bomb that used rocket acceleration for penetration of heavy concrete structures.

The Fritz X was originally designed to be used in attacks on things like the Maginot Line forts as a aside...

 

[klem]

In "American guided missiles of ww2-Steven J.Zaloga".We read this :- "The Navy had a second air-to-surface missile program a continuity of the Glomb glider bomb program. The Gargoyle was inspired by the German Hs.293 and Fritz-X"-. The missile had a armor-piercing warhead. Flight tests began in March 1945, until July 1946, too late. But the guided vertical bombs experiments and production began In 1941 until 1944-45 in the program for Controlled Trajectory Bombs. The idea was to use the television guidance system, The parent aircraft controlled the bomb with a joystick via radio commands. He had to maintain visual contact with the bomb by the use of a flare in the tail of the bomb. The elements of the guidance package were in a tail unit attached at the rear of the bomb. The Azon has developed and evolved from VB1 Azon 1,000lb bomb, radio-controlled in azimuth , the Spazon 1,000lb bomb, radio-controlled in azimuth spin stabilized and finaly the VB-2 Azon 2,000lb bomb, radio-controlled in azimuth. So, during the same period of development and use of FRITZ X, is in a way almost an answer to the FRITZ X. Admittedly, the decision to use this bomb mainly against infrastructure is the result of Factors linked to decision -makers.

 

[Dilandu]

In "American guided missiles of ww2-Steven J.Zaloga".

I highly recommend "Guided missilss & techniques", NDRC reports from 1946.

 

[klem]

In "American guided missiles of ww2-Steven J.Zaloga".

I highly recommend "Guided missilss & techniques", NDRC reports from 1946.

Thanks dilandu for your recommendation, The attachched Azon Pictures are extracted from "Guided Missilss & Techniques", ndrc reports from 1946. Certainly I know that Gargoyle as a program was the direct response to Fritz X, however it was too late. Grayson Merill The Gargoyle father did not end in time, the war was over and the Gargoyle as a response to the german bomb had no echo. So the Azon existed during the Fritz X period, the orientation From its development with other modifications could have opposed it to Fritz X as vertical bomb with controlled trajectory. I think Scapaflow when he says "It Seems to Me That the american response to Fritz X was The Azon Bomb", was not quite wrong. Everything is a question of point of view.

 

[Dilandu]

The attachched Azon Pictures are extracted from "Guided Missilss & Techniques", ndrc reports from 1946.

Yep, recognized them)