Fewer problems with UK aircraft production in the 1930's

PMN1

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For a variety of reasons, aircraft production following the start of rearmament was slower than hoped for and Swinton (Secretary of State for Air) and Weir ended up resigning in May 1938 with Kingsley Wood replacing Swinton – despite Kingsley Wood admitting he didn’t know one end of an aircraft from another….

What would have been the effect if aircraft production had not had as many problems and Swinton and Weir were not forced to resign?

I understand that Swinton and Nuffield did not get on with each other and Nuffield had refused to allow his group tom participate in the initial Shadow factory programme. However, Kingsley Wood persuaded him by practically giving him a blank cheque to build a Shadow factory where he wanted without any thought of potential workforce problem – this ended up as the Caste Bromwich factory.

So, can Nuffield be persuaded to do the same with Swinton in place, would he even be given the chance, or is there another group that can take Nuffield’s place. Nuffield made a complete pigs ear of the Castle Bromwich factory and Beaverbrook took it off him in a telephone call and gave it to Vickers (took Nuffield a bit by surprise apparently).

With less problems in aircraft production, does MAP get formed?

If MAP is still formed, does Beaverbrook get put in charge?
 
From the Kindle version of Leo McKinstry’s ‘Spitfire : Portrait of a Legend on Castle Bromwich.

Soon after Vickers had taken over, Beaverbrook instructed Sir Richard Fairey, the distinguished aircraft manufacturer, to conduct a full investigation into Castle Bromwich. Fairey’s subsequent report, which is contained on a microfilm in the Vickers Archive but has never been discussed in any Spitfire literature, provides a unique insight into the expensive shambles of Nuffield’s organization. It should be remembered that Fairey had an axe to grind against Nuffield, because he believed his Stockport factory should have been manufacturing Spitfires; nevertheless, his study, sent to Beaverbrook at the end of June 1940, amounted to a powerful indictment not just of Nuffield, but also of parts of the Castle Bromwich workforce. ‘It is, I regret to say, a picture of extravagance and an inability to understand the problems of aircraft production, coupled with an unwillingness to learn from those who do,’ Fairey began. ‘The state of affairs I have seen at Castle Bromwich is the exact reverse of that of other factories I have inspected on your behalf where output troubles have been primarily due to comparatively small companies with restricted finances having bitten off more than they can chew.’ In contrast, at Castle Bromwich, he continued:

Matters appear to have started with a blank cheque. Some £ 7 million of public money has been expended in a vast and extravagantly laid out plant, together with jigs and tools, with a large machine shop more than capable of the proposed output and huge stock of materials totalling 450 tons now on the premises. Much of this material has presumably been frozen there for some time. The machine shop is magnificent, comprising over 800 first-class machine tools, nearly half of which are perforce idle for want of equipment and skilled labour. For example, I saw the most perfect specimen of the Swiss jig borer costing some £ 14,000, just being erected. This machine should have completed its work six months ago.

Fairey went on to reveal further waste on buildings, expensive heating systems, and enormous steel hangars which could hold 200 Spitfires at a time. Records were hopelessly unreliable. ‘I myself inspected a number of boxes of components and parts that had literally been raked out from under the working benches and for which no records existed.’ Furthermore, Castle Bromwich had ignored the tooling work done by Supermarine and had instead started to design and plan its own tools, ‘even altering the manufacturing limits of Supermarine drawings for reasons which are quite incomprehensible’. Fairey was also aghast to find that

350 of the total schedule of 7,000 parts had neither been ordered on the shops nor placed out elsewhere. The whole conception was not good since the reason for spending so much capital on tools and machinery should be to produce an even flow of parts in the numbers required. I inspected among other things a battery of six large presses standing idle and a pile of large press tools, mostly incomplete or awaiting rectification, for making various parts of the machine, such as tank ends, which had not yet gone into operation.

Fairey’s harshest criticism, however, was reserved for the Castle Bromwich employees – which is interesting in the context of later mythology about the whole nation pulling together in the patriotic cause:

Over-riding all these considerations and in my opinion the greatest obstacle to an immediate increase in output is the fact that labour is in a very bad state. Discipline is lacking. Men are leaving before time and coming in late, taking evenings off when they think fit . . . In parts of the factory I noticed that men idling did not even bestir themselves at the approach of the Works Manager and the Director who were accompanying me.

Fairey mentioned that there had been a sit-down strike over a petty pay dispute the week before Vickers took over. ‘The labour in the Midlands and the north is not “playing the game”. They are getting extra money and are not working in proportion to it. In fact, in this particular factory there is every evidence of slackness. In my opinion it is management who are in need of rest far more than the operatives.’ Fairey suggested that workers should be warned that if they were found guilty of indiscipline or laxity they would be liable for conscription. ‘The labour are taking advantage of the services. In fact I maintain that without strong action on the labour not only will this programme not be achieved but that other factories will suffer.’

Fairey’s views on the workforce were not mere capitalist prejudice. The Supermarine engineer Cyril Russell had many colleagues who had been sent up to Birmingham to assist with parts and drawings, and heheard directly from them how ‘there were a lot of squabbles over money’, 68 how Castle Bromwich employees ‘stopped work for financial greed’, and how ‘the project was “bugged” with industrial action (or inaction) which fell short of a complete factory shutdown but was fragmented into areas where the cumulative result ensured that no Spitfires reached the flight testing stage.’ To his anger, the management had frequently caved in to such pressure, with the result that those on the Castle Bromwich payroll earned much more than those at Supermarine. Russell even suggested that left-wing extremism might have been behind some of the disputes: in his view, the bottlenecks might have been ‘orchestrated by politically motivated persons to delay the output of the aircraft that were so vital’ – action which he believed ‘bordered on treason.’ Apart from the complaint about general recalcitrance, however, there is no evidence for this in any of the archives.

Nevertheless, frustration with the workforce is all too clear from the correspondence of Alexander Dunbar, a tough accountant who became the overall managing director of Castle Bromwich in May 1940. ‘We have been doing a bit of sacking this week and shall be doing a lot more before the end of the month,’ he wrote to a Vickers director in July 1940:

Among other things we are cutting out time and a quarter payments for staff overtime and I have spent a lot of time today arguing with the chargehands. Yesterday it was the Draughtsmen’s Union and last night it was the progress clerks but it’s all in a day’s work. Incidentally, we are sacking at least 60 Jig and Tool draughtsmen next week; we have tried to find out what they are doing but the answer’s not a lemon . . . In the meantime we manage to build the odd Spitfire or two.

The sheer technical idiocy of some of the early Castle Bromwich line workers was also revealed by another Supermarine expert, Bill Cox, sent up to the factory to help sort out production. Cox was talking to an elderly fitter about the stressed-skin construction of the Spitfire when the fitter replied, ‘Make things with aluminium? Not bloody likely. That stuff is OK for pots and pans but we are going to make things to beat the Nazis. We’ll use iron.’ Cox also listened to a senior Castle Bromwich manager saying that ‘the elliptical wing should be redesigned because the air would not know the difference between straight and curved leading edges.’ So adamant was this manager about changing the design that Cox had to get on the phone to Joe Smith at Supermarine and warn him of the problem. Immediately, Smith contacted the Air Ministry and a civil servant was dispatched to Birmingham with the message that ‘all drawings must be made to Supermarine’s orders.’

Beaverbrook was eager to show that Castle Bromwich was being turned around, so, with a characteristic showman’s touch, he instructed the factory to build ten Spitfires before the end of June. But the new Vickers managers knew that, for all their sackings and the tighter discipline arising from the threat of military service, there was little chance of meeting this deadline, given the disarray of Castle Bromwich. So they resorted to a devious stratagem. As Stan Woodley recorded, ‘By shipping up from Southampton large numbers of finished components, including some fully equipped fuselages, and working round the clock, the magic ten in June were completed.’ The managers were given inscribed silver cigarette lighters to celebrate this achievement, though in reality it was little more than a piece of trickery. The ten in fact came from a consignment of Spitfires ordered by Turkey, which was cancelled due to escalation of the war. Instead of being shipped across the Mediterranean, they were taken out of their crates, modified to revert to standard RAF type, and shipped off to Birmingham. Alex Henshaw had to test-fly the first of the ten, and the experience gave him a glimpse into the ‘complete and utter shambles’ of Castle Bromwich. As requested, he arrived early in the morning for the test, soon after sunrise, but to his annoyance he found that the Spitfire was not ready. ‘I think there were at least twenty people standing round one solitary aircraft. It was utter chaos.’ Henshaw was advised to go into Birmingham for some breakfast and return later in the morning. ‘I came back and there was still chaos. This went on all day.’ Finally, half an hour before sunset, the work was complete. ‘They took the plane out on to the airfield and I got into it. Everyone was absolutely bushed. No hilarity, no joyous occasion, everyone just fed up. They were tired, frustrated and concerned because they didn’t know how it would turn out, their first aircraft.

But I took off for a fly and it behaved perfectly.’ Remembering the glum faces he had seen on the ground, Henshaw decided he would liven up the spectators. ‘I thought that they’d been working for days and all I had to do was hang around and fly the bloody thing.’ So he launched into one of the daring aerobatic displays for which he became renowned, performing loops and inverted rolls before landing. The mood was now completely different. ‘They were cheering, patting each other on the back and all embracing each other. I’ll never forget that.’

Even after the first Spitfires came off the Castle Bromwich production line, there remained tremendous problems at the factory, not least because the buildings had not even been completed. Two years after Sir Kingsley Wood had cut the first sod, parts of Castle Bromwich were still like a construction site. The architect overseeing the works, William J. Green, was an ineffectual manager, and his weakness was ruthlessly exploited by the contractors, led by an intractable foreman, a Mr Riley. So serious were the delays that Beaverbrook’s department sent in a surveyor, A. J. Hill from Taylor Woodrow, to compile a report. Just as Sir Richard Fairey had done, Hill painted a picture of dangerous stagnation at Castle Bromwich. Work on the canteen and the main office block was ‘almost at a standstill’, while the architect had ‘not shown any control over the contractors’.

When Hill interviewed Riley the foreman he found him ‘abusive and resentful’. Hill continued that Riley ‘is bigoted, conceited, offensive and cannot be told anything that he thinks he knows already which, according to him, is everything’. Thanks to Riley’s influence, contractors were refusing to work Saturday afternoons or Sundays. Hill concluded that his impression of his visit was that ‘There was a total lack of organization and programming of the work. Co-ordination and construction and fitting out of buildings were completely absent. Meetings to discuss progress have been a waste of time.’ 75 Another difficulty was that, as Sir Richard Fairey had noted, the factory’s recording procedures were in chaos, which also encouraged fraud and abuses within the workforce. J. E. Anderson, one of Vickers’ experts, reported in July that the system was so ‘poor’ and riddled with ‘inherent weaknesses’ that the proper ordering of the work was impossible. ‘The actual booking of operators’ time on jobs is inaccurate and confused,’ he wrote, which led to ‘numerous cases of overpayment’. Gradually during the summer of 1940 the Vickers team began to transform the management of the factory, through the creation of efficient records, stores and production lines, as well as through the sacking of idle or troublesome employees. On 8 August, for instance, Dunbar told Craven, with a degree of relish, that he had just dismissed 184 staff, among them ‘sixteen foremen whose experience and ability proved unsatisfactory’. In the new climate of well-organized determination, output increased rapidly. In July, 23 aircraft had been produced; 37 followed in August. By the end of October 1940, 195 Spitfires had been delivered from Castle Bromwich. Beaverbrook wrote to Dunbar to say that he was ‘very pleased with the improvement in the morale of the factory’, to which Dunbar replied, ‘Castle Bromwich is a long way yet from being perfect but steadyprogress is being made in every way and I am confident that we shall justify the trust you have reposed in me.’ By February 1941 the Spitfire total from Castle Bromwich was above 600, proving that the factory had huge productive capacity provided there was effective management and a co-operative workforce.

Eventually, over 13,000 of the type would be built at Castle Bromwich – more than half the total of all Spitfires produced. The fiasco of the early years at Castle Bromwich, set out in Whitehall and Vickers files, has never been fully told before, perhaps because it does not fit in with the uplifting wartime narrative of British courage and unity. Moreover, Nuffield himself was anxious to downplay the mess over which he had presided: there is hardly a mention of the episode in any of his papers. He was, by all accounts, never the same man after being so ruthlessly ousted by Beaverbrook, and lapsed into a long, melancholy decline. ‘He seemed to lose the vital force that drove him inexorably to greater and greater things,’ wrote Miles Thomas. Yet in two crucial ways Castle Bromwich is a vital chapter in the Spitfire saga. First of all it destroys the myth, so sedulously cultivated by cheerleading propaganda, that a mood of patriotic endeavour was sweeping through Birmingham and the nation in early 1940. In the words of Cyril Russell, the truth was a tale of ‘managerial weakness and ignorance, and an overdose of worker bloody mindedness’. Second, the chronic delay in producing Spitfires had severe consequences for the fabric of Fighter Command. Given Nuffield’s promise to make 60 planes a week, the contract for 1,000 Spitfires should have been easily fulfilled by the time the Battle of Britain reached its peak in September. If he had come anywhere near to meeting his pledge, the position of the RAF would have been transformed.

Every squadron in the two front-line groups in the south of England could have been equipped with Spitfires, and there would have been enough for reserves and training. The desperate tactics that Dowding had to use to protect his dwindling numbers would have been unnecessary. Much of the bitter controversy between his group commanders, caused by arguments over fighter resources, could have been avoided. The ‘narrow margin’ of the Battle was partly of Nuffield’s creation.
 
1. you note (LM) L.McKinstry’s “revelations” on the “myth” of civilian togetherness with our boys;
2: you wonder about (WM) Nuffield and (RF)Richard Fairey; and:
3: you ask: could more kit sooner have reached RAF if (Sw) Swinton had not been sacked?

1. LM: labour unrest. 2 Vols in WW2 Official History, Civil Series deal with labour. One illegal strike was RR/Crewe as Norway fell, another at Avro during Dunkirk, another at DH as the Few died above.
P.Pugh,The Magic of a Name/I,Icon, 2000,P.197;A.Roberts,Eminent Churchillians,Phoenix, 95,P257. RR/Hives trying to build Merlin found Clydeside “seething with communism (a) lot of rabble”. Avro/Dobson, trying to bring Yeadon on stream, must “force discipline down their throats”. S.Ritchie,Industry & Air Power,Cass,97,P.176. All this was concealed from the enemy, thus from us. Aero, from alloy to assembly, employed 1.827Mn. in 1943: some were traitors, saboteurs, wreckers; 99.99…% did their bit to get the tools to the boys, bombed the while. No myth. LM has “revealed” nothing.

2. RF: WM: Vt.Swinton was appointed 7/6/35 to Expand RAF. Advice came from Lord Weir, ex-DG A/c Production,Ministry of Munitions, 1918, then Secretary of State for Air. Knighted for founding WW1’s shadow production scheme, he did it all again in 1936, with Herbert Austin …without WM. Bristol Engine No.2 Production Group did not include Wolseley Motors, owned by WM, who disputed (Weir’s) Sw’s scheme to build Mercury by component single-sourcing, assembled by Austin; he also disputed as “infringing liberty” A.M.’s pricing on actual costs H.A.Taylor,Airspeed A/c,Putnam,70,P17: the issue was interest on capital he supplied on terms he did not care to display. His P&W Wasp licence was spurned by Sw. He took Wolseley out of Aero 9/36, and orchestrated criticism of Sw in a Lords Debate. Grudge.
RF late-1935 bought part of Heaton Chapel (1918 No.2 NAF), then extended by Sw to be Errwood Park Agency Factory. “in 1938 RF refused to manage a new shadow factory some distance from (Heaton C; ?Sherburn; so Blackfish) because of the strain (on Stockport organisation of any) further (labour/supervisory) dilution, but he agreed to supervise another factory in Stockport (E.Pk)”.S.Ritchie, Industry & Air Power,Cass,97,P.153.
LM has RF jealous that WM was to build Spitfire: A.M assigned 1,000 Spitfire Mk.II to WM’s CBAF, 12/4/39. On that day Fairey was swamped with Battle (Heaton C and Supervising Austin), Swordfish & Albacore (Hayes), trying to create Fulmar and Barracuda (core to the Case for the 6 Illustrious). Spitfire’s utility was not then evident: RF will have preferred sluicing Swordfish onto Blackburn so his team could take E.Pk into Beaufighter IC/F. Before Mk.II was assigned to a hole in Brum mud, Whirlwind and Beaufighter were the Plan for 1941, offering, unlike Hurricane/Spitfire, load and range to cross the Rhine from our safe French bases.
5/40 RF became
MAP Advisor on Production Planning: hismany Reports told it straight; RF did not cause Beaver to kick WM out of CBAF: another Industrial secondee did.

Sir Charles Craven, V-A’s Chairman became Industrial Adviser to the Minister (MAP),Beaverbrook, from 14/5/40, who must produce NOW! Craven told him V-A could produce CBAF’s “missing” Spitfires. So, 17/5, bye-bye WM. Shacklady/Morgan,Spitfire,Key,87 has great chunks roaded from Eastleigh causing 1st. “CBAF” delivery, 17/6/40. Sw.,60 Years of Power,Hutchinson,1966,P119 “this decision (i.e: WM to build CBAF) cost (at) least 1,000 (Spits) which should have been in reserve when the Battle of Britain started” (grudge); LM (and you!) toe that. No.
Shacklady,P51:A.M. memo,11/7/39:Spit. was “in danger of being eliminated from the re-armament programme (due to delay, not at CBAF: at V-S. Its) future was assured (due to the) stubbornness of 1 man (WM, insisting) on producing (all of all) 1,000 (at CBAF, so Whirlwind was) squeezed out”’. WM was Spitfire Saviour: Itchen mud-shed, even unbombed, could not have built 11,939. CBAF by 5/40 was no longer a Paddy field, but an industrial asset, oozing Krupp and other kit craved by Craven.

3. Sw.was fired after a Debate 5/38: MPs shivering from Anschluss criticised absent aeroplanes, demanding something must be done. Sw,P.119 “It was not easy to make MPs realise (new types) must take time (there) was a lot of secret stuff like radar which we could not tell (Firms) would like to have built a lot (i.e, even more of Battle/Hampden/Blenheim) death-traps (to produce) a nice fraudulent balance sheet” Sw.was vindicated by WSC as having been: “sacked (by C’lain) for building (the Force that) won the Battle of Britain” P13. Sw. held jobs for PM WSC, 1940-45, 1951-55. So: unsacked Sw. still there 5/40: What then?

I suggest, little change. Sw.’s successor caused Supermarine’s MD, Sir R.McLean to be fired, 10/38 for inability to move up from splashing carpenter to mass metalworker: 63 had flown by 4/39 of 310 Spitfire Mk.I ordered 3/6/36 for delivery by then. Craven integrated V-S into V-A. Even if CBAF had been able to churn Mk.II earlier, they would have no magnetos, no crankshafts for no engines…oh, and no air or ground crew.

Politicians could have ratcheted Munitions production by “compulsion” - ditching engineering exports in favour of more weaponry - say more Rootes Blenheims/ Austin Battles to enhance gaity in Tokyo, Berlin, and to advance UK’s bankruptcy. It was absence of the Heavy Bomber (Warwick!), drift in Whirlwind, that caused Chamberlain, Munich 9/38, to work from a horrid hand of Hind and Harrow. If that was anyone’s fault, it was Cabinets of the locust years, even, some aver, of Chancellor Churchill and his
Ten Year Rule.
 
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According to Leo McKinstry's 'Portrait of a Legend: Spitfire', Fairey was asked to make 300 Spitfires at its Stockport factory.

This seems to have been part of Scheme L but nothing came of it. Doesn't actually fix the exact time apart from 'first months of 1938' in one place where it is mentioned and it also mentions 'it had been superceded, despite the reservations of Freeman, by the order for 1,000 Spitfires placed in May 1938 at the Nuffield factory in Birmingham' - the Castle Bromwich site.


OK so my guess is this would have followed the Battle order on the Fairey line at Stockport or maybe even come in sooner with a reduction in Battle orders.

Did the Fairey factory have labour problems, would it have been a better option for production?
 
If 300 Spitfires had been put into Stockport in 1938/39, yet longer, deeper pain would have accrued to FAA.
As new MAP, 11/42 Stafford Cripps first act was to put an Authorised Controller on Firefly at General A/c/Hanworth. He then addressed Fairey, draining RN by not supplying Barracuda II/Firefly I, yet asserting spare resources to have bid, Aug.,’42, for (to be AvroYork). He directed them to the task (not) in hand by threatening Control by Seafire shadow Westland (MD, E.Mensforth, became his Ch.Production Adviser,1/43). MAP Advisor on Production Planning, Fairey’s Chairman, had been sent to NY 8/40 as (Deputy, 1/42-4/45 in DC:) DG, Br.Air Commission, serving ex-MAP Llewellin. FAA core was Barracuda; as RSC arrived, Mk.II, ordered in shoals, had just flown. In mitigationSir R.Fairey cited Exe for damming it, Griffon for curbing Firefly: he was put on probation.

We all forget how modest was Spitfire I/II in early 1939. No range, no payload, no cannon. Ministers and Marshals only wanted it when the Threat became urgent and various Whirlwinds drifted.
 
In terms of manufacturing capacity, from what i've read elsewhere,

"The Battle File" indicates that the AM realised the Battle was obsolescent in 1939 but kept production going at Fairey's Stockport factory and at Austin through most of 1940 just to give the workforce something to do pending the switch-over to the Avro Manchester at Stockport and Short Stirling at Austin.
 
This has been a fascinating thread.

I have a number of questions/observations:


What would the RAF have looked like in 1934 if the British had not cut the strength of the RAF and deployed the types technologically available to it in those years?

Would such an RAF have been adequate to deter Germany and Italy or indeed Japan?

If Britain had taken a more robust/interventionist line in the Abyssinian crisis, Spanish Civil War and against Japan in the Far East (supporting China) might this have allowed the shortcomings in deployed aircraft to be put right before a general war in 1936, 8 or 9?

What types of aircraft should be chosen for rearmament in

Pre-Hitler?

1934?

1936?

Would a stronger Royal Air Force line up have performed well enough to either deter or beat aggression in this timescale? Or was any feasible line up likely to be outmatched by German and Japanese technology/resources?
 
uk 75 said:
What would the RAF have looked like in 1934 if the British had not cut the strength of the RAF and deployed the types technologically available to it in those years?

I suspect full of obsolete aircraft with numbers looking good to the politicians but not so good in reality.

An interesting post on this site on the RAF re-armament.

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/from-peace-to-war-royal-air-force-rearmament-programme-1934-1940.html
 
PMN1 said:
I suspect full of obsolete aircraft with numbers looking good to the politicians but not so good in reality.

I actually doubt this, UK R&D largely kept pace, if not ahead in some areas of the rest of the world through the 1920s/30s the problem was that programme lacked depth and urgency so problems were never ironed out or technologies refined whilst engines that experienced technical difficulties were simply allowed to drift. It was this same lack of depth that affected the manufacturing base.
 
a senior Castle Bromwich manager saying that ‘the elliptical wing should be redesigned because the air would not know the difference between straight and curved leading edges.’

I'm intrigued by this. I'm sure we've all seen the drawings of the early design version of the Spitfire with straight tapered flying surfaces. Had it been built in this form would it have been any easier to produce? Would there have been any performance penalty, and would this have been significant?

cheers,
Robin.
 
robunos said:
a senior Castle Bromwich manager saying that ‘the elliptical wing should be redesigned because the air would not know the difference between straight and curved leading edges.’

I'm intrigued by this. I'm sure we've all seen the drawings of the early design version of the Spitfire with straight tapered flying surfaces. Had it been built in this form would it have been any easier to produce? Would there have been any performance penalty, and would this have been significant?

cheers,
Robin.

The wing shape did give advance warning of stall, would be interesting to know how many pilots that saved.
 
Roy Hawkins, who worked at the RAE's High-Speed Flight, told me that the Spifire wing had a higher critical Mach Number than any other Allied fighter in 1945. Whether that was due to its elliptical shape or not I don't know. I might have mentioned this in BSP4, but can't check as I'm not at home.

Chris
 
CBAF: we have a plethora of dates, McKinstry differing from Isby (The Decisive Duel), and from the Official History/War Production and from Shacklady/Spitfire. Let's come back to OP, who was not Spitfire-centric: could better kit quicker have been delivered, such as to deter the Nazi invasions of the West. OP speaks of Richard Fairey vice William Morris, just (I presume) as examples. He wants to explore whether higher priority/more money into Aero in the 1935-ish timeframe: so, the British Independent Paralyser Deterrent, could have prevented WW2. More Heavies sooner. More Spitfires sooner would not have deterred anyone, as the bomber will always get through (or enough of them to render the masses ungovernable).

I suggest that the wonder is not that Warwick failed, Wellington was late, Whitley/Hampden/Blenheim were briefly/Battle not at all effective...but that we deployed anything of any utility before 1941..because from the moment we decided that Germany and Japan presented Threats - say late-1934, until May,1940, we thought Germany's industrial militarisation matched 1941 capacity to invade someone in the East: never in the West, safe behind Maginot. That's why we happily scattered Guarantees to far-off countries of which we know little, for whom we could actually do less. The British Independent Bluster Deterrent. Japan would be coralled in China by deployment to Singapore in 1941 of some of 1936's orders for KGVs and Illustrii: no need in the East for Air or Land.

Before winning 14/11/35 General Election Baldwin (judged that) he must disguise preparations for ReArmament: Churchill later held that to have been scandalous, but the mood of the Country was for Collective Security, the Banning of the Bomber. Within mere weeks from 11/35 money cascaded into Air and Sea munitions: production apace, as educational orders, for what existed; R&D across the spectrum - Hyper engines, big wings, clever kit...all intended to replace Battle &tc in the shadow, ex-auto Expansion industry, for deployment for 1941. No Tactical Air in support of the Army...because UK had no Army, and did not fund one - and then still limited liability - until conscription was introduced, 4/39. Our few soldiers were to stiffen local levies to pacify Empire.

If we had thought he would run armour through the Ardennes, to secure his rear before turning East, wholly different types would have been funded, closely resembling Ju.87/88. They would have suffered exactly the same production difficulties as did attend Heavies, Spitfires and all, because Aero was ramping up from modest quantities in mud and dope. No-one, whether in the Ring, like Fairey, or out of it, like (Wolseley) Nuffield, Martin-Baker, could have magic-ed better, quicker.

It has been taught for 50 years in (W.)Germany that Hitler was mad - not just in 1945, but in 1933. That's a national defence mechanism, but even if true...then the notion of deterring him lapses. A rational actor with equities to protect...that is the logic on which deterrence rests.
 
Chris

Re your final sentence. I could not agree more. When Chamberlain met Hitler in 1938 he tried to use the imagery of his first journey as an old man in an aeroplane of the vulnerable little houses he saw to persuade Hitler that any war he started would have unimaginable consequences and be unpredictable in its outcome. Hitler showed no interest in this argument and at no stage in the future war did he show any compassion for the fate of German civilians.

Even if Bomber Command had had its full 1944 strength of Lancs etc Chamberlain could still not have persuaded Hitler of the folly of war.

Recent history offers a warning of what might have happened if France and Britain had been able to use their military in 1936 to get Hitler out of the Rhineland. Hitler in fact was ready to simply pull back his forces (like Saddam in 1991) and live to fight another day. German popular opinion to whom allied occupation of the Rhineland by British as well as French troops was a recent memory would have rallied to Hitler's propaganda just as many in Iraq have to Saddam. An inevitable war in 1938 over Austria or Czechoslovakia might have followed, but British public opinion in particular might have staged large anti-war rallies on the scale of those held over Iraq. Anti-war sentiment in various classes in Britain was if anything stronger in 1938 than now.
 
JFC Fuller said:
PMN1 said:
I suspect full of obsolete aircraft with numbers looking good to the politicians but not so good in reality.

I actually doubt this, UK R&D largely kept pace, if not ahead in some areas of the rest of the world through the 1920s/30s the problem was that programme lacked depth and urgency so problems were never ironed out or technologies refined whilst engines that experienced technical difficulties were simply allowed to drift. It was this same lack of depth that affected the manufacturing base.

What is available at this time, largely bi-planes apart from possibly the Fairey Hendon and Vickers Jokey derivatives, they are not going to be any use less than 5 years from when they were bought such was the pace of development.

I think given the pace of development of aircraft, the taps were opened at about the right time to avoid block obolescence, its a pity that there were so many problems.

Then their is always the Geneva Disarmament talks lurking in the background in 34/35 with possible restrictions on weights and numbers of aircraft.

In terms of the manufacturing base, i've got to wonder what an earlier thinking up of the Shadow Factory scheme would do, does it allow the ministry to allow the less reliable firms to go to the wall rather than keep them going to provide floor space?
 
PMN1 said:
What is available at this time, largely bi-planes apart from possibly the Fairey Hendon and Vickers Jokey derivatives, they are not going to be any use less than 5 years from when they were bought such was the pace of development.

I think given the pace of development of aircraft, the taps were opened at about the right time to avoid block obolescence, its a pity that there were so many problems.

I would suggest that aircraft development only accelerated so rapidly because the taps were opened in Germany and the UK. As long as the UK started spending substantially about the same time as its rivals (Germany) it should maintain parity if not a lead. The Vickers Jockey is actually illustrative of this, it was developed into the Vickers Venom that first flew in 1936 and with a bigger engine would have been comparable with the Hurricane, they were of the same basic technology level. Prior to that there had been considerable development of bi-plane aircraft, take the BP Overstrand and Gladiator for example.

What is worthy of note; British rearmament effectively started in 1935 yet a decade later, inclusive of 6 years of total war (effectively unlimited spending), the RAF was only then starting to wean itself away from designs whose origins were at the very beginning of that period if not before. Merlin first ran in 1933 yet was to power the Lincoln (itself a direct descendent of the Manchester from a 1936 specification), Spitfire started life evolving out of a failed project from 1930 with its own design starting in 1934 etc. The UK fought and won with the best of the early/mid-30s technology whilst the fancy 24 cylinder monsters and their associated airframes were either failures or only started making a big impact in 1945 (Centaurus for instance), the same goes for gas turbines. That is not to take away from the achievements of thousands of engineers and designers, they stretched that technology to its limit kept up with everyone else but is suggests we should be less critical of todays designers and engineers whose projects drift.
 
CBAF: I will dig further, but may we here hold the case of Lord Nuffield as "chaotic", senile or worse as unproven? After ejection from CBAF he swarmed Tigers off UK Aero’s first assembly line, and, as DG/Maintenance, set up and ran the Civilian Repair Organisation awhile. His Organisation built cruiser light tanks and Bofors guns; M.G made chunks of Albemarle and overhauled Merlin: WM did his bit. First (though brief) Chairman of BMC, 1952; made CH, 1958; he continued to negotiate with Ministers into 1950s. He was, ah, difficult (LM, P.151: "typically gauche")…like most creatives.

McKinstry has 1,000 Spits on order from CBAF Spitfire Factory in 1938, but I have construction on the site authorised only in August,1938, and Freeman not ordering 1,000 Mk.IIA until 12/4/39. To have a/c nearly there, and to be able to divert some items down to Eastleigh (as Shacklady has it) by May,1940 is not despicable. I have a note that 2 years to create a Shadow Factory was seen as normal (IIRC, Bulman, in the context of RR Glasgow beating that). More digging.*

(McKinstry has the structure roaded up to create the first "CBAF" a/c as coming from embargoed Turkish a/c).
(Amended later, 27/9: Putnam/Supermarine,P.362 gives the AM contract No. for the 1,000 Mk.IIA, dated 12/4/39).
 
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