Could the UK have done a better job of maintaining the V-Force?

[Scott Kenny]

I think the point of multiple types of bombers for the UK is getting as many airframes as possible as quickly as possible. Takes longer to retool a factory than it does to build the plane that factory was originally pushing.

They were assuming the "Year of Maximum Danger" as what, 1959?

So everything had to be up and ready for that. Which means in service for a year or so prior to get the squadrons worked up and competent.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

They were assuming the "Year of Maximum Danger" as what, 1959?

1957. Which, is when (in 1948) the British Chiefs of Staff decided that the USSR would start World War III.

If I remember correctly from Norman Friedman's "British Carrier Aviation" (where I first heard of it) the theory was that the USSR would not start a war until the damage done in the Great Patriotic War had been repaired and it had enough atomic bombs to deter an American first strike. Which, was estimated to be in 1957.

Britain could only afford to rearm once. Therefore, they decided to concentrate the money on developing the most advanced weapons that could be put into service by 1957. You may have noticed that the Squadron Pattern Plans that I have been quoting often end on 31.03.58, which was when the British 1957-58 Financial Year ended.

 

[Hood]

Where there any specific UK reconnaissance aircraft projects in this time frame? I can't really think of any. I suppose plan would be use Mosquito and Spitfire PR variants until Canberra came along?

I can't think of any either. The Pathfinder aircraft to OR.285 (to become Valiant B.2) seems to have had a basic secondary reconnaissance role. It does seem to have been left to the Canberra, the few B(PR).1 conversions were survey craft (replacing the survey Lancs).

Certainly the loaned B-45 flights were attempts to get this mapping intelligence when we had nothing with which to do the job.

 

[Hood]

Q: why did we continue to fund S.A.4 after 16/4/48?
A: SB&H/H&W was the largest/highest-skilled Employer in the North.

I would think that an excellent idea why to give them meaningful work to do. Luckily in reality Canberra came along, as long as they are doing real work that needs doing and not piece-work like the Bristol Britannia deal (which saw Bristol gaining a shareholding) just to make up work, then its good for the industry as a whole.

I must admit I've never really fully gotten my head around the state ownership of Short Brothers and its merger into Short-Harland. I presume the state shareholding was never fully sold off to ensure the factory remained open. Yet I can't really think of many instances when they were favoured by Labour governments for contracts for example and indeed they were resolutely kept out of the formation of British Aerospace (when Scottish Aviation was not). Presumably there was a rationale for that?

 

[Scott Kenny]

1957. Which, is when (in 1948) the British Chiefs of Staff decided that the USSR would start World War III.

If I remember correctly from Norman Friedman's "British Carrier Aviation" (where I first heard of it) the theory was that the USSR would not start a war until the damage done in the Great Patriotic War had been repaired and it had enough atomic bombs to deter an American first strike. Which, was estimated to be in 1957.

Britain could only afford to rearm once. Therefore, they decided to concentrate the money on developing the most advanced weapons that could be put into service by 1957. You may have noticed that the Squadron Pattern Plans that I have been quoting often end on 31.03.58, which was when the British 1957-58 Financial Year ended.

Thank you.

So, we have to get as much capability as possible worked up and ready to fight by 1957. This includes having the squadrons worked up for at least 6months, if not more, so we're really talking about what can be built and ready to fight by 1955-56.

 

[alertken]

hood #134: Shorts, Scottish ownership. This is nerdCentral, so short (Ha!).

These Rationalisation rambles are harmless because they were all impossible: having in '46 rejected Nationalisation, Govt could not impose anything on private business. If Fred HP so valued his Co as to repel boarders...tough, Minister, if you thought to merge him.
That's why Ministers 8/45-4/77 failed at the attempt: all they could do was eject squatters from MoS-Agencies: so, Avro out of Yeadon,
in 1941 “probably the largest factory in Europe under one "roof” B.B.Halpenny,ActionStations 4,PSL,90, Rootes out of Meir, Speke...etc.
So MoS 9/57 used (to be) TSR.2 as the carrot, then quite rightly left it to Owners to decide who to woo.

PM Baldwin won an Election 7/6/35 and made Rearmament visible, so Investors lemminged into Aero: for 3 years the City would offer equity and/or debt to firms likely to win a/c contracts; then we paid for plant and sites. He brought back the 1917 Min of Munitions who had created the Shadow system where, for example, shipyard Harland had built HP V/1500. L Weir was now to do the same, plus using Auto, modest in 1917. He paid for facilities expansion and assigned contracts as he saw fit, without the need to buy equity in anybody.
Harland, a public Co., (which in UK means a private Co, same as schools), chose to form a new Co: A.M. gave Shorts a map and ferry ticket and pointed them thither. The parties agreed to form Short and Harland Ltd (I have Short at 60%, you will find 64% and 50%!). Other mariners entered on other terms. Soon full of busy. So, move on to 1942.

Few Heavies, 1936 Spec, were opnl when WSC went to Moscow 12/8/42 to explain why no Second Front Now! Uncle Joe told WSC to tell Tommy not to be afraid of the Boche, we can show you how to kill him. But we're doing it...soon.. with Heavies said PM, came back and appointed the most Left Cabinet Minister, ex-Ambassador to Moscow, to sort out Heavies NOW! So he ejected Oswald Short from his own business, 23/3/43. Much of the equity valuation (£1.472Mn.) rested on Shorts share of the Belfast end: Cripps did not want that - his beef was with Stirling's Parent, so that was an Oswald Win. Avro, HP, Vickers (delinquent on Warwick, not flashy to date on (Warwick III, to be) WIndsor) took note and raised their game. He needed to buy nobody else, though he put Controllers in many. AWA took over Shorts/S.Marston to run down Stirling III.

Q:, I hear you say, why retain Shorts/Sydenham, taxpayers' delight, after VJ Day, when we shut down so much?
A: Labour's Nationalisation of Industry Committee deciding early-46 not to buy everybody, Ministers discovered investors agreed: nobody wanted to invest in Aero. Peace had broken out, but Civil was vague, later and in California. One valiant Belgian tried a Stirling transport, but soon retired hurt. So we still owned SB&H when Labour got back in, 4/3/74 pledged to Nationalise Air and Shipbuilding. In '75 they bought Harland and Wolff, inc. its (then)15.25% of SB&H, and bought Bristol Aeroplane's 15.25% (bought 7/54 to secure involvement in 2nd-source Britannia). In 1977 they gave birth proudly to Br.Shipbuilsers and Br.Aerospace. H&W was not in one and Shorts was not in the other.

That was all to do with convoluted Irish politics, which neither I, nor you, nor many can hope to understand.