Chengdu J-20 pictures, analysis and speculation Part I

[Creative]

Congrats! Is J-20 going to be the "hi" of a hi-lo setup like F-22/F-35?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Seems to be visible panel lines on the sides of the fuselage too.

The gaps between the wings and slats and flaps appear to have similar careful shaping as the F-22. The engine nozzles appear to be of LO design with zigzagging visible. The trailing edges of the "shelf" on which the fins are mounted are aligned to the trailing edges of the wing.

The overall design is very clean.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Overscan,

On that picture I think I can see a zig-zag pattern of lines just behind the air intake, suggesting there might me a bay door there. Of course I could also be seeing things.

 

[Otaku]

Centre-line of main w/bay visible:

Congratulations to CAC & China, unlike Mr. Gates, love the timing (13:00/11/01/11).

Mercurius over on KeyPubs says the Russians are claiming considerable input. IIrc, when Frolov was head of OKB MiG he once let slip that their (failed) PAK-FA contender was based on the MiG 1.44, "how could we not? [base it on the 1.44] after the thousands of hours and huge sums we expended!". It would be interesting to see how much (if any) MiG PAK-FA heritage the J-20 has.

Regardless, not to detract anything from CAC- it's a huge achievement, I don't doubt their abilities in avionics/EW systems- given their established micro-electronics industry, and once they get their engine right -they can be considered to have arrived.

 

[JFC Fuller]

The Jane's article that Mercurious refers to has issues, that have been mentioned here previously. Not to mention increasing deterioration in the general quality of that organisations journalism.

Over at Key Pub there is a better picture of the underside on which I think I can also see a zig-zag pattern of lines on the underside on the forward fuselage suggesting a bay.

 

[F-14D]

The Jane's article that Mercurious refers to has issues, that have been mentioned here previously. Not to mention increasing deterioration in the general quality of that organisations journalism.

Over at Key Pub there is a better picture of the underside on which I think I can also see a zig-zag pattern of lines on the underside on the forward fuselage suggesting a bay.

According to reports, the J-20 touched down on 1/11/11 (or 11/1/11 in European style) @ 1:11 PM local. Hmmmm....

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, "China's defense minister on Monday rebuffed an offer from Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates to hold strategic nuclear talks...".


Isn't political theater grand?

 

[quellish]

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVoSLDVBLEY

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKmmyZFSbG0

 

[Foxglove]

It's a big day! Congratulations Chengdu and China. What's next, H-9, manned mission to Mars, antigravity? The sky's the limit.

 

[Mercurius Cantabrigiensis]

The Jane's article that Mercurious refers to has issues, that have been mentioned here previously. Not to mention increasing deterioration in the general quality of that organisations journalism.

It might be useful if you detailed what these 'issues' are. I only posted a brief summary of the Jane's story in the Other Place, and would hate to think I had led their readers astray.

Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

 

[Mike Pryce]

I only posted a brief summary of the Jane's story in the Other Place, and would hate to think I had led their readers astray.

Readers of the Other Place have already led themselves astray by venturing there!

 

[JFC Fuller]

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11656.msg111393.html#msg111393

Before we even get to rather strange background to the story- someone in Russian industry who claimed to have seen a picture of it...

It could be a 100% accurate article from a genuinely connected source, but I have seen articles like that before and it smells enough for me to be sceptical about its details. In my opinion, and it is mine alone, the most that can be attributed to that article is that it gave a heads-up that something was going to be making an appearance soon, everything else was speculative.

And in relation to a comment posted in the other place, Jane's has not suggested that the J-20 is largely made of aluminium, it was another of their mysterious Russian sources who, based on the structure of the qoute, was merely expressing a personal opinion with no actual knowledge of the J-20.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I think it’s pretty clear from the full angle photos that this aircraft is customised for A2A and will only have limited LO in the frontal aspect. The attention to high agility features like the all moving canards and tails, slats, skegs, vectoring nozzles and the lack of space allocation for FLIR/LD all scream fighter. Also the bomb bays are likely quite shallow in order to accommodate the ducts from the intakes to the engines. Since these are located quite outboard in relation to the bomb bay they will consume a lot of the height of the centre fuselage because there doesn’t appear to be much width for them to displace into. Further the large wing area would rule out low level comfortable flight for strike approach and high radar returns from other than straight ahead rule out a high level strike approach.

As to stealth the lack of attention to creating a strong RCS return spike in the 40-50 degree from boresight via planform alignment is telling. The importance of having a 40-50 degree spike from centreline has everthing to do with geometric relationships from a moving target that make it impossible to track. To spike at 5-10 degrees from the boresight from the makes the aircraft very easy to detect in anything other than a tactical head to head engagement. With the amount of surfaces requiring RAM treatment like the intakes, LERXs and entire engine bay area to reduce the boresight return they aren’t going to be able to treat all the trailing edges as well.

This is very far from being a F-22/F-35 competitive aircraft.

 

[quellish]

I think it’s pretty clear from the full angle photos that this aircraft is customised for A2A and will only have limited LO in the frontal aspect.

The details of the design may tell a different story. Measuring some of the LO treatments that are visible now would tell you the frequencies being countered.

This is very far from being a F-22/F-35 competitive aircraft.

It is very premature to reach that conclusion. The capabilities of the radar, data links, and other avionics are unknown.

And this is why I'm not too worried about the head on RCS:

Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor

books.google.com

 

[rousseau]

Two HD fotos
and
comparable foto

 

[PAK FA]

This is very far from being a F-22/F-35 competitive aircraft.

I think it is not as stealthy but more or less similar to a F-35 in performance.
Its stealth is okay in the inlets, fuselage, vertical tails, but its overall configuration is not better than the F-22 or T-50 and without the right engines i think still is not a match for the F-22.
truely it looks like a fighter but i think the Russians got a better engine in the T-50; and the americans chose for higher levels of stealth.
In a combat the F-22 is going to be more difficult to detect and the T-50 more agile.
Despite some say that vice programme director of J-20 project, Song Wen-cong claims it is better due to its delta canard configuration, he just studied old aerodynamic ideas and the J-20 is not revolutionary in aerodynamics and pays the price on stealth.
The Americans at least did not pay the price and made the F-22 really stealthy

 

[rousseau]

This is very far from being a F-22/F-35 competitive aircraft.

I think it is not as stealthy but more or less similar to a F-35 in performance.
Its stealth is okay in the inlets, fuselage, vertical tails, but its overall configuration is not better than the F-22 or T-50 and without the right engines i think still is not a match for the F-22.
truely it looks as a fighter but i think the Russians got a better engine in the T-50; and the americans chose for higher levels of stealth.
In a combat the F-22 is going to be more difficult to detect and the T-50 more agile.
Despite some say that vice programme director of J-20 project, Song Wen-cong claims it is better due to its deta canard confuguration, he just studied old aerodynamic ideas and the J-20 is not revolutionary in aerodynamics and pays the price on stealth.
The Americans at least did not pay the price and made the F-22 really stealthy

The design of LERX & Canards combination was not presented on J-20 firstly but Rafale.
I admit it is optimized on J-20, so we can see air-stream created by pointed LERX ahead of canards will washing canards to postpone the stall of canards during AOA, while being level flight, the LERX extending from main-wing will be influenced by down-washing which is a high-speed airflow upon LERX generated via canards.
This is somewhat an innovative design should be called VLT(Vortex-Lift-Transmit)
Certainly, when you take a paper, you must have two surface to both. This VLT is clearly based on anhedral of canards so damage the stealth of canards due to both of canards and wing within same reference surface.
Secondly, such design also made a significant long forebody ahead of main wing, cause trim problem hard to be solved so that is why trimmed by TVC as an inner information to be revealed.
We all knew that to trim by TVC means losing a certain thrust at some level, but this appear reluctant because of lacking second way to go.

 

[flateric]

a bits of panel lines
from www.top81.cn

 

[PAK FA]

This is somewhat an innovative design should be called VLT(Vortex-Lift-Transmit)

In my personal opinion, i think it is not innovative because it simply blends ideas and brings no new solutions.
It has the forward forebody of an F-22, the inlets of the F-35, a Rafale type wing canard configuration and a rear fuselage simialr to the S-47 and MiG 1.44, with this i am not saying the chinese copied all those aircraft, just that the technological solutions used are not new.
The Rafale up to what i have read uses boundary layer control to renergize the flow of the LERX and canard with its V shaped inlets and sculpted fuselage, i do not see that on the J-20 because both aircraft have different inlet designs.
To me the T-50`s LEVCON is totally new, it solved so many troubles ranging from stealth to high AoA handling, as a fighter the last thing the Rafale is going to do is position the canard at the same level of the wing as the J-20 does, this creates problems for stealth planforming even aerodynamics, they just added a very conventional wing planform to a superb fuselage, i like the fuselage of the J-20 but they even use a curved LERX, which is not bad for aerodynamics, but not the best for stealth.

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

did my best...

so far this is what I came up with

 

[dingyibvs]

The Jane's article that Mercurious refers to has issues, that have been mentioned here previously. Not to mention increasing deterioration in the general quality of that organisations journalism.

Over at Key Pub there is a better picture of the underside on which I think I can also see a zig-zag pattern of lines on the underside on the forward fuselage suggesting a bay.

According to reports, the J-20 touched down on 1/11/11 (or 11/1/11 in European style) @ 1:11 PM local. Hmmmm....

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, "China's defense minister on Monday rebuffed an offer from Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates to hold strategic nuclear talks...".


Isn't political theater grand?

Nah, it took off at 12:50 pm and landed at 1:08 pm local.

 

[flateric]

18 minutes, yes

 

[Steve Pace]

The names "Black Eagle" and "Project 2001" have been associated with the J-20 (or is it J20)... -SP

 

[F-14D]

The Jane's article that Mercurious refers to has issues, that have been mentioned here previously. Not to mention increasing deterioration in the general quality of that organisations journalism.

Over at Key Pub there is a better picture of the underside on which I think I can also see a zig-zag pattern of lines on the underside on the forward fuselage suggesting a bay.

According to reports, the J-20 touched down on 1/11/11 (or 11/1/11 in European style) @ 1:11 PM local. Hmmmm....

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, "China's defense minister on Monday rebuffed an offer from Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates to hold strategic nuclear talks...".


Isn't political theater grand?

Nah, it took off at 12:50 pm and landed at 1:08 pm local.

OK,

Got that time off a news report (I wasn't there, had to get a haircut). Maybe it took 3 minutes to taxi back?

 

[Otaku]

The Jane's article that Mercurious refers to has issues, that have been mentioned here previously. Not to mention increasing deterioration in the general quality of that organisations journalism.

Around 3 years ago, TsAGI was celebrating some anniversary and the General-Director was asked by an OPT 1 reporter what things were keeping them busy. He detailed Boeing and Airbus/EADS sub-contracts and finished with (iIrc) "...we've been working on 2 Chinese military designs about which I cannot comment further." I will try to find the footage (Russian).

It's well known that Chengdu's 611 institute has had contractual dealings with TsAGI's Siberian branch (SibNIA) located in Novosibirsk since 1993, that's why I wondered about what happened to MiG's failed PAK-FA bid.
I doubt whether the emergence of the J-20 came as much of a surprise to the staff @ SibNIA.

"...welcome to Beijing Mr. Gates."

 

[JFC Fuller]

I dont dispute the possibility of extensive Russian involvement, in fact I was one of the first to suggest it on this forum. What I doubt is the veracity and usefulness of some of the Jane's reporting.

 

[InvisibleDefender]

From an article in the New York Times today...

"Staging the test flight of the long-secret J-20 while Mr. Gates was in Beijing amounted to an unusually bold show of force by China. But the demonstration also raised questions about the degree of civilian control of the Chinese military, as President Hu Jintao and other civilian leaders gave their American visitors the impression that they were unaware that the test had been conducted only hours before they received Mr. Gates at the Great Hall of the People.

A senior American defense official said that when Mr. Gates asked Mr. Hu to discuss the test it was evident to the Americans that the Chinese leader and his top civilian advisers were startled by the query and were unprepared to answer him. Photos of the flight of the radar-evading J-20 had been prominently posted on unofficial Chinese military Web sites a few hours before the meeting.

"The civilian leadership seemed surprised by the test," Mr. Gates told reporters on Wednesday morning in Mutianyu, during a visit to the Great Wall outside Beijing.

In remarks to reporters on Tuesday in Beijing, Mr. Gates said that Mr. Hu did acknowledge the test, apparently later in the same meeting, and that he assured Mr. Gates that it “had absolutely nothing to do with my visit.”

Asked if he truly believed that, Mr. Gates said, “I take President Hu at his word.”

 

[JFC Fuller]

Hmmm, senior political figures ill-informed about military developments, because that never happens in any other country, like most of Europe.......oh wait...

I am still amused at this notion that China has timed its entire J-20 programme to coincide the first flight with the visit of US defence secretary.

 

[Matej]

But the demonstration also raised questions about the degree of civilian control of the Chinese military, as President Hu Jintao and other civilian leaders gave their American visitors the impression that they were unaware that the test had been conducted only hours before they received Mr. Gates at the Great Hall of the People.

Its not that surprising. It is believed that in the case of the war (lets say attack to the Taiwan) only 15 - 20 % of the Chinese army will be loyal to the Peking. Most of it is financed by the regional governments, so any situation like the war can lead to the efforts to empower of many regions.

But I am not sure that this has any significant influence in this case.

 

[PAK FA]

Around 3 years ago, TsAGI was celebrating some anniversary and the General-Director was asked by an OPT 1 reporter what things were keeping them busy. He detailed Boeing and Airbus/EADS sub-contracts and finished with (iIrc) "...we've been working on 2 Chinese military designs about which I cannot comment further." I will try to find the footage (Russian).

It's well known that Chengdu's 611 institute has had contractual dealings with TsAGI's Siberian branch (SibNIA) located in Novosibirsk since 1993, that's why I wondered about what happened to MiG's failed PAK-FA bid.
I doubt whether the emergence of the J-20 came as much of a surprise to the staff @ SibNIA.

It possible but the J-20 represent other solutions in inlet, canard position and tail design that it must be only a limited help from Russia on the J-20 if it has any direct influence, however i know a Russian or perhaps Russians have direct involvement on the J-20 program,

 

[flateric]

Why are you so sure about this?

 

[PAK FA]

Why are you so sure about this?

At China defence forum they have a J-20 topic, a poster has a picture of a western looking foreigner right behind the J-20`s designer Yang Wei, the page is 45 the topic is J-20 next generation fighter and the poster is Yexu, later on i read on KEY pubs forum that he is a Russian, so it is probable a few Russians designers are involvedhttp://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=5373.880
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106032&page=13

 

[seruriermarshal]

Why are you so sure about this?

At China defence forum they have a J-20 topic, a poster has a picture of a western looking foreigner right behind the J-20`s designer Yang Wei, the page is 45 the topic is J-20 next generation fighter and the poster is Yexu, later on i read on KEY pubs forum that he is a Russian, so it is probable a few Russians designers are involvedhttp://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=5373.880
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106032&page=13

Any information about his name ?

 

[PAK FA]

Why are you so sure about this?

At China defence forum they have a J-20 topic, a poster has a picture of a western looking foreigner right behind the J-20`s designer Yang Wei, the page is 45 the topic is J-20 next generation fighter and the poster is Yexu, later on i read on KEY pubs forum that he is a Russian, so it is probable a few Russians designers are involvedhttp://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=5373.880
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106032&page=13

Any information about his name ?

no idea

 

[donnage99]

I just realized that the aircraft flying now looks almost exactly the same as this picture posted years ago (forgot what web page).

The existence of canards are nothing special. However, this one has the LERX and shape of wings and vertical tails identical to the now flying j-20. This means that the shape of the aircraft was never really a secret.

EDIT: and all those times we impatiently waiting for first flight to figure out its shape lol

 

[Deino]

Is this real ... couldn't check at GE, since my internet at home has a complete break-down !

 

[flateric]

I just realized that the aircraft flying now looks almost exactly the same as this picture posted years ago (forgot what web page).

wasn't that by Hui Tong from www.top81.cn back in 2006 AFAIR?

 

[flateric]

Any information about his name ?

nickname 'Yexu' rings some bells here (too complicated to explain), so he may be Russian
PAK FA, thanks for that info

 

[dingyibvs]

Why are you so sure about this?

At China defence forum they have a J-20 topic, a poster has a picture of a western looking foreigner right behind the J-20`s designer Yang Wei, the page is 45 the topic is J-20 next generation fighter and the poster is Yexu, later on i read on KEY pubs forum that he is a Russian, so it is probable a few Russians designers are involvedhttp://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=5373.880
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106032&page=13

Any information about his name ?

No idea of his name, but according to i.e. on keypub he's Russian and is Yang Wei's protege. I think both CAC and SAC have quite a few former Soviet Union citizens working for them. When the USSR collapsed, China along with many other countries snatched many Russian scientists. However, there is no known help given by the Russians that's sanctioned by the Russian government. The Russians aren't THAT stupid!

 

[Mike Pryce]

I just realized that the aircraft flying now looks almost exactly the same as this picture posted years ago (forgot what web page).

The existence of canards are nothing special. However, this one has the LERX and shape of wings and vertical tails identical to the now flying j-20. This means that the shape of the aircraft was never really a secret.

EDIT: and all those times we impatiently waiting for first flight to figure out its shape lol

Thanks for that. It's been driving me nuts thinking I had seen it before! Fins are different, and I don't think the LERX really are LERX, but rather area ruled fairings as on the F-15, but this is almost too close to be a coincidence. Secret Projects - no such thing!

 

[Matej]

I just realized that the aircraft flying now looks almost exactly the same as this picture posted years ago (forgot what web page).

And it was not the only one. But in the overflow of chinese fan-art, CGI and fakes it was almost impossible for the ordinary man to determine, what is genuine and what is fake.