That link makes a number of bizarre claims:
1: " The federal EV tax credit is up to $7,500 for new vehicles."

Yeah... no. For starters, GM jacked up the prices of their electric vehicles by... $7,500. And the tax credit only goes to cars that use batteries that don't actually exist.... and the credit is "up to" $7,500.

Important notes:

Under the new rules, you can only claim the EV tax credit if:

  • You buy an EV priced at $55,000 or less, or buy an SUV or light truck priced at $80,000 or less (from January 1, 2023)
  • Your modified adjusted gross income in the year of purchase or preceding year is no more than $150,000 if filing singly; $225,000 for a head of household; or $300,000 if you’re filing jointly
  • For used EVs, the purchaser’s income is limited to $75,000 for a single filer, $112,500 for a head of household, and $150,000 for joint filers
  • The EV is assembled in North America, which for the bill’s purposes includes Mexico, the U.S., and Canada (effective immediately)
  • The EV’s battery is assembled in or made from materials sourced in North America or an approved country (though this rule will only apply from January 1, 2025)
  • At least 40% of the “critical minerals content” comes from U.S. sources, is recycled in North America, or comes from a country with a free trade agreement with the U.S. (from January 1, 2023, with annual increases in minimum content requirements thereafter).


2: "32 miles of range, which is typically plenty for daily driving needs."

I typically put a hundred miles on a single days drive. And I might wish to decide to drive 600 miles away. With my current beater, that's a one-day drive, with 2 or 3 tankups along the way. How's that gonna work with an EV?

3: "Without spark plugs to replace or oil to change, electric vehicles have a clear leg up on maintenance costs. Electric cars do still require some basic maintenance—like service checks and tire rotations."

Ummm... how much do those *batteries* cost to replace? Not just the cost of the battery itself, but the labor? Interesting that that little detail was left entirely out of the discussion.
$20k+
 
Ummm... how much do those *batteries* cost to replace? Not just the cost of the battery itself, but the labor? Interesting that that little detail was left entirely out of the discussion.
$20k+

Assuming that's true... that would be an obvious place to start for those who want to see EV's become the standard. Do what science and engineering you need to do to drop that price down to *hundreds* of dollars. Then, people will snap up EV's like candy.

The alternative of mandating that people buy these thigns anyone has a decent analog with the current university system in the US. It used to be that you could get a good college education with a useful degree in a useful field for a surprisingly affordable cost. Then the government came in with easy laons and everyone jsut sorta decided that everybody had to have a degree... didn;t matter in *what,* you just had to have one. the result is that since everyone had to have one, and the government was *kinda* footign the bill, colleges and universites blew up their costs. There was no market incentive to lower cost, because not only were far more people signing up, they were getting their bills for it paid. Now, a decent university education is largely unaffordable. Why would electric cars be any different if they become government-mandated before they're actually affordable?
 
Ummm... how much do those *batteries* cost to replace? Not just the cost of the battery itself, but the labor? Interesting that that little detail was left entirely out of the discussion.
$20k+

Assuming that's true... that would be an obvious place to start for those who want to see EV's become the standard. Do what science and engineering you need to do to drop that price down to *hundreds* of dollars. Then, people will snap up EV's like candy.

The alternative of mandating that people buy these thigns anyone has a decent analog with the current university system in the US. It used to be that you could get a good college education with a useful degree in a useful field for a surprisingly affordable cost. Then the government came in with easy laons and everyone jsut sorta decided that everybody had to have a degree... didn;t matter in *what,* you just had to have one. the result is that since everyone had to have one, and the government was *kinda* footign the bill, colleges and universites blew up their costs. There was no market incentive to lower cost, because not only were far more people signing up, they were getting their bills for it paid. Now, a decent university education is largely unaffordable. Why would electric cars be any different if they become government-mandated before they're actually affordable?
You can't just replace individual cells, it's the whole pack.

 
You can't just replace individual cells, it's the whole pack.

Fortunately, Ford figured out the proper form factor for that sort of thing, long ago. If someone were to come out with an EV designed like this... hell, I might have to sell a kidney:

Ford%20Nucleon.jpg
 
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[



You know what will happen? "This battery contains no user repairable components. Any effort to repair, modify or replace any component at a non certified service center will immediately void the vehicle warranty and cause the self driving AI ro take over and drive the vehicle to the nearest crushing yard."
 
The people at Batteriretur / Bebat / Cobat / GRS Batterien / Stibat will be very interested to hear why what they're doing is impossible. Call them.
 
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The people at Batteriretur / Bebat / Cobat / GRS Batterien / Stibat will be very interested to hear why what they're doing is impossible. Call them.
Correct.

Most ev will wear out the ‘car’ before the battery dies.

Also let’s be realistic, a 10 year old car doesn’t have its original bhp, nor probably its mpg. Still perfectly useable as a cheap vehicle, taxi, second car, kids car, etc.

Already leaf and Prius can be repaired by independents, at a fraction of what their original manufacturers would charge.

Good batteries from failed cars, will either go to support other ev, or be used as stationary batteries, for home, or grid storage.

Ultimately the cells will be recycled, and made into new ones. This is starting, as only now are we seeing good numbers of dead cells.

The latest Chinese car, in U.K. sold as an MG, is £25k new, does 250 miles. Getting good reviews, even looks pretty good. In 5 years, yours for 10k.
 
Seriously Brexit again?
Like a magic totem or original sin?
We'd be in this state of affairs in or out of the EU, and if anything likely in a worse one if we'd stayed.
"I think the people in this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.
How awful, he questioned the Holy Experts. Burn this heretic!
 
The technology for batteries is moving too fast for investors. If they don't know where to put their money for a guaranteed high profit, they won't move to newer technology until that high profit is realized. Then they might consider newer car battery technology. In a few months, Ford and BMW will be getting better batteries. Solid-state batteries.


 
The people at Batteriretur / Bebat / Cobat / GRS Batterien / Stibat will be very interested to hear why what they're doing is impossible.
I'm sorry... who said that what they're doing is "impossible?" Who are you responding to?

In any event: wait until EV's are mandatory by law. At that point, companies like Apple will dloubtless jump in, if nothing else by buying out existing manufacturers. Apple EV's will be as customer-servicable as an iphone.
 
The latest Chinese car...

1: Who really wants to put their lives into the hands of Chinese consumer electronics? I remember what they did with cat food.
2: "China invades taiwan" will quickly be followed with "remember when we used to actually trade with China?"
 
My understanding was that currently batteries like Tesla uses are hard to recycle. Correct
me if I am wrong.
 
We seem to be slipping very slightly away from the main topic, but, hey, such is the nature of human discourse. As to EV battery recycling: I have long argued, using my *vast* experience in the EV field (I've done research online! I've read Wikipedia articles!) that the best approach to battery charging would be to make EV batteries standardized and easily replaced. A good charging station should be built much like a car wash (and perhaps even integrate a car wash into the process). You drive in, the car gets locked onto a track, it passes over a bay and roboarms reach up, remove the batteries and replace them with freshly charged and quality-checked batteries. Your old batteries stay at the charging station, get checked and charged and if they are crap... they get set aside for recycling. This would make the charging process take little longer than an actual car wash, rather than an hours-long process, or a potentially dangerous power-mad flash charging that takes "only" some fraction of an hour. If the batteries are standardized, your vehicle would have a variable number of them... one or two for a runabout, more for a van, more still for a semi. If absolutely necessary, maybe a few different types, but only a few.

By making the batteries easily - and commonly - swapable like this, recycling them would be a no-brainer. The car owner would in fact be cut out of the loop. He/she would never even need to worry about it; they could rest *reasonably* certain that they could drive their car for decades and never run into battery problems. And as battery tech improves, better batteries could be built into the same shells, and your 100 mile range goes to 200, 400, 1,000, whatever, and the car owner never really needs to worry about it.

Swappable car batteries mean swappable house batteries. You could swap them yourself at the nearest charging station with no more fuss than when you swap out the propane tanks for your barbecue.
 
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Ummm whoa:

Recycling costs Tesla about $4.50 per pound of battery. Assuming a Tesla battery is 1,500 pounds, it costs about $6,750 to recycle an entire Tesla battery pack.

Ouch!

This is quite reasonable...

Really!


considering that the initial cost of the battery is many orders of magnitude higher

Many orders of magnitude? That's gotta be at least three, right? So a Tesla battery pack must cost around three quarters of a million dollars!

Unless, of course, the author is a bit dim and doesn't actually know what "an order of magnitude" means.
 
Tangential, but loans for Uni...
Used to be local authority subsidised Uni courses with a grant. It was partially means-tested, families were assessed, expected to pay towards 'up-keep' component if finances allowed. So, kids went to Uni and, un-fettered by vast loans, came home, took fair jobs with fair pay, contributed hugely to local economy...

Then, loans. Kids went to Uni, were stuck with massive debt. Either they then found jobs below 'repayment' trigger level, or grabbed high-paying employment, usually far from home. Too often, sucked into the 'London / SE Weighting' morass of extortionate commuting and living costs...
 
In my opinion this whole blackout thing could be a false alarm designed by social engineers to study people's reactions and prepare for a real case.
 
Good science and fiscal conservatism says "don't mandate that people buy technologies that aren't yet ready. Instead, incentivize industry to *develop* those technologies to the point where they are commercially competitive... and then people will buy them willingly." I own a number of bits of consumer electronics, purchased at low prices form pawn shops and the like, that the department of Defense would have happily slaughtered whole villages to obtain only a few decades ago. I was not mandated to buy these laptops or flat screen TVs/displays or cell phones; i bought them when the natural course of the modern economic cycle of supply, demand and entrepreneurship brought the price down to what I was willing to pay. Using governmental power to *force* me to buy such things, either directly or by taking away the option of buying a cheaper alternative for something that is virtually necessary to get by with in modern society, is akin to fascism.
Key point.

Activism + politics have led to a pell-mell rush to replace IC cars with electric cars, mainly because activists start hyperventilating when they imagine any diversions or speed bumps on their path to the Clean, Green Future.

Far more optimal would be to support hybrids - less onerous battery requirements, utilizing IC infrastructure, and less need for charging infrastructure.

With hybrid support from the start, we’d likely have more of a reduction in IC cars, more broader adoption of Hybrids vs. EVs, and better reductions in emissions. EVs would also benefit from a broader range of Hybrids developing the electric side of their propulsion systems.
 
Far more optimal would be to support hybrids

True for many technologies, not just cars. Power grids, for instance... rather than "stop oil" and suddenly rely solely on weather-power, a "hybrid" of the two. Or, in fact, three: throw in nukes, and then Britain need not worry about blackouts due to less Russian gas and dim sun in winter.
 
It appears Tesla isn't very good at designing batteries for recycling/refurbishing, but ev-battery refurbishing is a real thing with other manufacturers' batteries.
You can't just replace individual cells, it's the whole pack.
View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=2kHfJ1m_9lg

https://reneos.eu/case/how-battery-repair-centres-extend-the-life-cycle-of-ev-batteries
"Reality is frequently inaccurate" - Douglas Adams
I replied to sferrin's categorical statement - it IS possible to refurbish properly designed ev-batteries, it is being done commercially where I live. One example:
 
Now factor in cost. If it were actually cheaper they wouldn't have to FORCE adoption. It would happen on it's own. Oops. Also many of those "electric" cars are actually fueled by fossil fuel at the powerplant.

We're switching cars not because they're cheaper, but because the CO2 emissions of ICE cars are becoming untenable.
And even when they're powered by a fossil fuel plant, electric cars produce less emissions than ICE cars because the efficiency of the powerplant + car is higher than that of the ICE fuel chain.
 
A point to always make.
It is a fundamental truth that Activists are concerned with Change, not Truth.
 
Now factor in cost. If it were actually cheaper they wouldn't have to FORCE adoption. It would happen on it's own. Oops. Also many of those "electric" cars are actually fueled by fossil fuel at the powerplant.

We're switching cars not because they're cheaper, but because the CO2 emissions of ICE cars are becoming untenable.
And even when they're powered by a fossil fuel plant, electric cars produce less emissions than ICE cars because the efficiency of the powerplant + car is higher than that of the ICE fuel chain.
Problem with the idea (and most activism-driven fairytales) is there is no plan dealing with the ramifications. Are those who can't afford electric cars supposed to walk wherever they need to go? You ban ICEs but don't have an expanded grid or production in place to compensate. You have no plan for people who can't afford EVs. And you become a slave to China because you don't have the necessary infrastructure in place to make an EV environment even possible. Typical. It's all about the fee-fees.
 
Also, if anyone is keeping tabs on your electricity utility bill, if you're finding you can't pay the bill now, just wait until governments wake up to the fact gasoline/petrol taxes aren't rolling in like they were ----
 
And when it gets cold in the winter do not turn on your natural gas heater. Just another liberal paradise.
Better than a Conservative paradise:

That must be why everybody is fleeing California and heading to conservative states, Texas in particular. Nobody is going back.
Any exodus from California is pretty much entirely due to housing prices as a result of NIMBYism, and given recent political events and the increasing self-radicalisation of state Republican governments (and associated legislation they pass), soon there will be an exodus from those states as well.
 
After 3 Pages of commentary it's probably worth pointing out that the original blackouts story was as a result of a number of contingency plans, where a worst cases scenario (reduced Gas storage and no imports from Europe) would lead to pre-defined 3-hour long load shedding during a day. I have attached a copy the original National Grid Winter Outlook Report.
 

Attachments

  • NG ESO Winter Outlook 2022.pdf
    1.5 MB · Views: 3
And when it gets cold in the winter do not turn on your natural gas heater. Just another liberal paradise.
Better than a Conservative paradise:

That must be why everybody is fleeing California and heading to conservative states, Texas in particular. Nobody is going back.
Any exodus from California is pretty much entirely due to housing prices as a result of NIMBYism, and given recent political events and the increasing self-radicalisation of state Republican governments (and associated legislation they pass), soon there will be an exodus from those states as well.

And when it gets cold in the winter do not turn on your natural gas heater. Just another liberal paradise.
Better than a Conservative paradise:

That must be why everybody is fleeing California and heading to conservative states, Texas in particular. Nobody is going back.
Any exodus from California is pretty much entirely due to housing prices as a result of NIMBYism, and given recent political events and the increasing self-radicalisation of state Republican governments (and associated legislation they pass), soon there will be an exodus from those states as well.
Wow. Do you actually believe that?
 
I doubt the wealthy will go in on this. In any case, the critical month appears to be January.
Private Eye's 'Keeping the Lights On' column by Old Sparky has been forecasting blackouts for the last three or four winters. Hasn't happened. However, we haven't had a hard winter for 60 years (Older readers might recall the winter of 62-63) or Putin weaponising energy supplies.

As for this government's new found love drilling/fracking etc. We rig pigs are just laughing our heads off in the teashacks of the North Sea - there isn't the trained workforce to do this. The days of dragging lads out of the pubs of Aberdeen and handing them boots and hardhat are long gone. It's a highly technical business and in the last ten years much of the trained workforce has gone, as has a much of the experience (eh, Schneiderman?). I'm eyeing the door myself as I can see what's coming.

Ho hum,

Chris

Putin weaponising energy supplies? We threw the sanctions at him so did any government who did that think he wouldn't respond?
Have to agree with you there.

Regards
Pioneer
 
Every winter is usually preceded by the same events:
The Daily Star proclaims "This Winter Could be the Coldest for 200 Years!!!" on its headline.
The Daily Mirror proclaims "Blackouts this Winter! You will Freeze!"

Then we muddle through and get to March without incident to read in our papers:
The Daily Star proclaims "This Summer Could be the Hottest for 200 Years!!!" on its headline.
The Daily Mirror proclaims "Drought this Winter! You will Burn!"

Then we muddle through and get to September without incident to read in our papers:
The Daily Star proclaims "This Winter Could be the Coldest for 200 Years!!!" on its headline.
The Daily Mirror proclaims "Blackouts this Winter! You will Freeze!"

And so on ad infinitum....
 
Every winter is usually preceded by the same events:
The Daily Star proclaims "This Winter Could be the Coldest for 200 Years!!!" on its headline.
The Daily Mirror proclaims "Blackouts this Winter! You will Freeze!"

Then we muddle through and get to March without incident to read in our papers:
The Daily Star proclaims "This Summer Could be the Hottest for 200 Years!!!" on its headline.
The Daily Mirror proclaims "Drought this Winter! You will Burn!"

Then we muddle through and get to September without incident to read in our papers:
The Daily Star proclaims "This Winter Could be the Coldest for 200 Years!!!" on its headline.
The Daily Mirror proclaims "Blackouts this Winter! You will Freeze!"

And so on ad infinitum....
True and rather like the whole "Hospitals will be overwhelmed by flue patients!!" trotted out every year.

But my favourite is the Hose Pipe Ban just after record rainfall.
 
Wow. Do you actually believe that?
You don't?
Hate to burst your bubble but California housing prices have always been ridiculous. The draconian lockdowns, lawlessness, and increased taxes though, that's new. And it's not just California. The flood is people leaving blue states for red. This is so obvious and well documented I can only conclude you either don't live here or are one of those causing the problems.




Note that red is dominating the top (states being moved to) while blue are the dumpster fires at the bottom that people are leaving:

 
"It is a fundamental truth that Activists are concerned with Change, not Truth."

IMHO, you confuse Activists with Populists, who'll mob any passing bus and sorta hijack it...
 
I think the UK should pass a bill just like CA did (this is no joke either) a few years ago to collect the methane emissions of CA cows because the cows are a huge contributor to climate change, this should stop the UK blackouts when a suitable amount of gas is captured, process and distributed, but wait, CA (like NY) wants to ban natural gas appliances as well. Additionally, CA is also considering a bill preventing us Californian's from eating cabbage, refried beans, broccoli or any gas producing foods, again we residents are contributing to the climate fiasco. I am waiting when my Wife and I will have to be fitted with our own cattlelytic convertors due to our strict CA emissions laws then getting emission tested every other year. And everyone wonders why people are leaving CA? I hope the UK can do way better than the insane asylum called CA.
 
I wonder what would happen to radical environmentalists if the Big Blackout really happened: "Would your neighbors stop talking to you?" -divorce? -lawsuits? -isolated aggressions carried out by strangers? -pogrom? Maybe it all depends on the length of the Blackout.
 

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