Roland Payen projects and prototypes

[mrys]

Hi All!
I have few questions about SP.25. First of all - couldn't find any data besides sketch and few infos about 300 hp engines used in "I". Any info about dimensions, weight and calculated performances exist?
And second - on drawing instead of Sauvage is name of Francois Baudot. Why?

 

[Deltafan]

Hi All!
I have few questions about SP.25. First of all - couldn't find any data besides sketch and few infos about 300 hp engines used in "I". Any info about dimensions, weight and calculated performances exist?
And second - on drawing instead of Sauvage is name of Francois Baudot. Why?

Baudot was the inventor of a device called "Complex Sécurité", which was a transmission mechanism allowing to drive two counter-rotating propellers. It was planned to be used on the SP 25.

I don't know why it is sometimes referred to as two "Bearn" engines (Bearn begins to build aircraft engines in 1937, and the SP.25 was to participate in the 1933 Deutsch Cup). I believe this is a mix-up and that the Baudot engine is of a "similar configuration" to the 1938 Bearn 12 A engine.

Baudot engine (from Pilote Privé N°85/February 1984)

 

[Deltafan]

For the SP-25 (maybe from Pilote Privé N°86 March 1981. I forgot to indicate the reference on the document)

There are several issues ( As so often when it comes to Payen aircraft...).

This file below, from Roland Payen, indicates 200 hp . the calculations of the "power per m²" and the "load per horse" also give a power of 200 hp.
In the book Les moteurs à pistons aéronautiques français tome 1 (Docavia publishing, 1987) the power is 600 hp. In Flug Revue from July 1995, Skyways 23 and Fast Facts 65 (and another article in German which I forgot to take the reference) German author Ferdinand C. Käsmann indicates 600 hp, as a "quarter" of the engine gave 150 hp on the test bench.

In this file below, the empty weight is 420 kgs and the max weight ("en charge") is 730 kgs. In the book Les moteurs à pistons aéronautiques français tome 1, the weight of the Baudot's engine is already 400 kgs...

Otherwise, in this file below :
-max speed 450 km/h,
-length 6,15 m (for Käsmann: 6,86 m)*
-span (canards/"machutes") 3,5 m (for Käsmann: 3,3 m and deltaflügel: 3,2 m)
-height : 2,2 m
-max aera ? (I don't know what is "surface totale en projection") : 9,96 m²
-"useful area" (I don't know what is it) : 7,50 m² (for Käsmann: delta flügel 6,86 m²)*

*We can see that the length of the plane and area of the delta wing give identical values. This may be a confusion on Käsmann's part.

 

[mrys]

Thank you very much Deltafan. I was also suprised by information, that Baudot system was compiled with two Bearn engines, but thought, that I didn't understand something. Signature "12A suggest 12 cylinders, but on drawing of Baudot engine you attached (I knew it before but in worse copy) are evidently visible eight cylinders for each quoters (mean 32 cylinders for all). On airplane drawings I found only 2x8 exhausts on the top of engine cowling, so as I think that engine was in "X" position and had one exhaust for two cylinders (one from lower and one from higher block) or on drawings should also be ehhausts under fuselage (simplest solution IMO).

 

[Tim52413]

Thank you.

I've been having a few questions about a couple Payen designs, the 190 and 230, both battle field medevac aircraft, the 230 carrying one stretcher being the more realistic of the two designs.

I have both in the Unicraft resin models, and have been wondering if these could have been built and flyable?

Call it a minor morbid curiosity, and were I to work out a few numbers, perhaps the 190 could carry 4 stretchers, but then I was always the kind of person to root for the underdog.

I have a question. What are the dimensions of the SP.190?

 

[Deltafan]

I have a question. What are the dimensions of the SP.190?

Hi Tim,

This question has already been asked in this topic. Unfortunately, no document gives its dimensions. Regarding the SP.190 and 240 projects, we can only say that they are derivatives of the SP.230 project, which was visibly smaller than them, but for which we have dimensions..

For this SP.230, the data is:

Sauvage-Payen SP.230 autoplan
two seats private plane
engine : Salmson 7AC 90 hp
Length : 5,80 m
Wingspan : 3,96 m
Height : 2,20 m
Main wing surface : 12,88 m²
Forward wing surface : 3,05 m²
Empty weight : 190 kg
Moving (good translation ?) weight : 235 kg
Max weight : 425 kg
Wing loading : 26 kg/m²
Loading/hp : 6,53 kg/hp
Max speed : 200 km/h
Min speed : 80 km/h
Max (good translation ?) flying height : 1 500 m
Range : 1200 km

Otherwise, it is possible to measure the dimensions of the 1/72 model released by Unicraft a few years ago to have approximate dimensions. The company doesn't have any more information than we do, but I imagine that their experience has allowed them to make relatively precise calculations.
Since my last replies on this topic, a few years ago, I acquired this model, which is somewhere in my belongings, but I never put it together (one of all the things I have had to do for years ...).
I will try to find it and take brief measurements to give approximate dimensions.

Unicraft Models 1/72 SP.190

 

[Deltafan]

Well, on the 3 views drawing of the Unicraft SP.190 model, I measured 17.3 (floor size) - 17.6 cm (overall length) for the length, 8.2-8.6 cm for the width (canards, but the top view and the front view do not give the same length) and 5.8-5.9 cm for the height (cockpit, same problem with the profile view and the front view).

Which would give us approximately for the SP.190 project:

Length: 12,50 m
Wingspan: 6.05 m
Height: 4.21 m

 

[Tim52413]

Well, on the 3 views drawing of the Unicraft SP.190 model, I measured 17.3 (floor size) - 17.6 mm (overall length) for the length, 8.2-8.6 mm for the width (canards, but the top view and the front view do not give the same length) and 5.8-5.9 mm for the height (cockpit, same problem with the profile view and the front view).

Which would give us approximately for the SP.190 project:

Length: 12,50 m
Wingspan: 6.05 m
Height: 4.21 m

Thank you very much! But didn't you measure the span in centimeters?

 

[Deltafan]

Thank you very much! But didn't you measure the span in centimeters?

Yes, you're right, it's in centimeters, not millimeters. I modified in the previous topic.

Edit : did you want too the span for the wings only (which is different than the span with the canards) ?

 

[Tim52413]

Yes, you're right, it's in centimeters, not millimeters. I modified in the previous topic.

Edit : did you want too the span for the wings only (which is different than the span with the canards) ?

I think that knowing D and L will be more than enough.

 

[Deltafan]

I think that knowing D and L will be more than enough.

If I understood your message correctly, I have, as said: 8.2 - 8.6 cm for the width at the level of the canards ducks
and,
after additional measurement: a wingspan of 7.3 - 7.6 cm


Which gives, approximately:

-6.05 m for the width at the level of the canards (L on your drawing), as already said
-5.35 m for the wingspan (D on your drawing).

 

[Tim52413]

If I understood your message correctly, I have, as said: 8.2 - 8.6 cm for the width at the level of the canards ducks
and,
after additional measurement: a wingspan of 7.3 - 7.6 cm


Which gives, approximately:

-6.05 m for the width at the level of the canards (L on your drawing), as already said
-5.35 m for the wingspan (D on your drawing).

Thank you very much!

 

[Tim52413]

If I understood your message correctly, I have, as said: 8.2 - 8.6 cm for the width at the level of the canards ducks
and,
after additional measurement: a wingspan of 7.3 - 7.6 cm


Which gives, approximately:

-6.05 m for the width at the level of the canards (L on your drawing), as already said
-5.35 m for the wingspan (D on your drawing).

Hello. I have a question. As I understand, you have a model of SP.190. Can you take a picture of the assembled model or at least the details of this scale model?

 

[Deltafan]

Hello. I have a question. As I understand, you have a model of SP.190. Can you take a picture of the assembled model or at least the details of this scale model?

Hi Tim,

The situation has not changed since my previous post on this subject:

Otherwise, it is possible to measure the dimensions of the 1/72 model released by Unicraft a few years ago to have approximate dimensions. The company doesn't have any more information than we do, but I imagine that their experience has allowed them to make relatively precise calculations.
Since my last replies on this topic, a few years ago, I acquired this model, which is somewhere in my belongings, but I never put it together (one of all the things I have had to do for years ...).
I will try to find it and take brief measurements to give approximate dimensions.

Unicraft Models 1/72 SP.190

On the Unicraft link, you can see some of the resin parts.

Now, if you really want it, I can find the model in my belongings, take photos of all its elements, and show them on the forum.

 

[Tim52413]

Hi Tim,

The situation has not changed since my previous post on this subject:


On the Unicraft link, you can see some of the resin parts.

Now, if you really want it, I can find the model in my belongings, take photos of all its elements, and show them on the forum.

I apologize for the impudence. To be honest, I'm interested in how Unicraft models made the shape of the fuselage. The drawings, alas, do not give an idea of what shape the fuselage should have. The shape of the nose is also interesting. Alas, the photos of the parts that are on the official website are too small, which is a little depressing, there are simply no assembled models of this particular aircraft.

 

[Deltafan]

I apologize for the impudence. To be honest, I'm interested in how Unicraft models made the shape of the fuselage. The drawings, alas, do not give an idea of what shape the fuselage should have. The shape of the nose is also interesting. Alas, the photos of the parts that are on the official website are too small, which is a little depressing, there are simply no assembled models of this particular aircraft.

OK, time to recharge the battery of my camera (which hasn't worked for a long time) tonight and find the model box and you will have the images. Normally, tomorrow.

 

[Tim52413]

OK, time to recharge the battery of my camera (which hasn't worked for a long time) tonight and find the model box and you will have the images. Normally, tomorrow.

Thank you very much.

 

[Tim52413]

OK, time to recharge the battery of my camera (which hasn't worked for a long time) tonight and find the model box and you will have the images. Normally, tomorrow.

Hello. I'm sorry to bother you, but did you manage to find the box with scale model?

 

[Deltafan]

Hello. I'm sorry to bother you, but did you manage to find the box with scale model?

Hi, sorry for the late answer.

It took longer than expected, firstly because I hadn't put the box back in its original place, and I lost time finding it. Then, because the model turned out to be very fragile: I notably broke the propeller and, as a result, I preferred not to completely remove the propeller cone from its plastic support.
It's been decades since I've assembled any models and with the 80 I have waiting to be assembled, I had to finish with those of the Payen aircraft last. This direct move to uncapping the Unicraft SP 190 was not a success...

Well, otherwise, I made enlargements of the 3 documents in the box showing the front part of the plane.

At this point, I can't do better.

Edit: And I suddenly realize that you wanted too the shape of the fuselage when I thought I read that it was only the nose that interested you...

I'll have to start again... It will be for Saturday...

 

[Jemiba]

Perhaps I can try to help ?
The illustration on the box seems to be exactly the drawing from the AirEnthusiast March/April 1997 issue,
the model obviously have been made to that pattern. So maybe that drawing would answer the question ?

 

[Tim52413]

Perhaps I can try to help ?
The illustration on the box seems to be exactly the drawing from the AirEnthusiast March/April 1997 issue,
the model obviously have been made to that pattern. So maybe that drawing would answer the question ?

Alas, this drawing does not convey the shape of the fuselage. Yes, and there are several questions about the influx in the nose area. But thank you.

 

[Deltafan]

Well, last deliveries :

Otherwise, you can also order the SP 190 model from Unicraft. They obviously have a lot left in reserve.

5-10

 

[Deltafan]

11-15

 

[Deltafan]

16-20

 

[Deltafan]

I forgot the 8...

 

[Tim52413]

Well, last deliveries :

Otherwise, you can also order the SP 190 model from Unicraft. They obviously have a lot left in reserve.

5-10

The quality of the model from this company is not so great, of course, but the photos are wonderful. Thank you very much. I think these are the only photos of this model.

 

[TsrJoe]

Oh my !

 

[Tim52413]

I have another question about SP.190: how should the door open on this plane? I want to make a replica of this plane in one game, but I ran into this problem.

 

[Tim52413]

I also noticed one detail: the width of the fuselage at its widest point is 1.5 meters. The length of the fuselage turned out to be 12 meters. And here's a simple question: how were 6 beds for patients and a radio operator supposed to be located there? In fact, the dimensions may be different, but based on the data that deltafan provided to me, it turned out what it turned out to be. I understand that there is no information at all about this project, but I would like to anticipate the placement inside the aircraft.

 

[Tim52413]

Well, last deliveries :

Otherwise, you can also order the SP 190 model from Unicraft. They obviously have a lot left in reserve.

5-10

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but do you have the opportunity to measure the width of the fuselage at its widest point?

 

[Deltafan]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but do you have the opportunity to measure the width of the fuselage at its widest point?

Sorry for responding late. The real world is taking up a lot of my time at the moment. I'll do this on Sunday.

 

[Tim52413]

Sorry for responding late. The real world is taking up a lot of my time at the moment. I'll do this on Sunday.

I understand you perfectly.

 

[Nik]

Visited and marvelled at this progressing thread several times, am still amazed...

Given the prototype the Germans captured managed ~220 mph on its modest 'civilian' engine, must wonder what a 'MilSpec' or racer version could have reached...

Equipped with even an early / down-rated Merlin ??

Okay, that tail-merged canopy visibility was, at best, 'unfortunate' but, given the 'Toujours l'Audace !!' ethos of those likely to fly it, perhaps not a deal-breaker.

What would be snappy French for 'Lancers of the Sky' ??

Sadly, panic-paralysed France collapsed before Payen & Co might be invited to UK. But, given existing mass-production of Hurricanes & Spitfires to replace those obsolete turret-fighters, designs more suited to eg 'Spanish Civil War' air-combat, unlikely to have made a difference...

Tangential, must wonder how much the 'Maginot Line' blinkered French thinking at multiple levels, including air-combat....


Whimsy:
Nimble Payens briskly downing ME 110s and duelling ME 109s while DeLannes kerb-stomp Stukas remains an enduring 'What If'...
/

 

[Scott Kenny]

Payen Projects in the article "Die fantastischen Visionen eines feurigen Franzosen - Monsieur Payens geflügelte Pfeile" from Ferdinand C. W. Käsmann, published in the German annual book "Flieger Kalender 2007 / 2008", pages 143 to 152.

That P.350CD is one sleek-looking beast.

Ah, if only I had money and space to make one...

 

[Deltafan]

do you have the opportunity to measure the width of the fuselage at its widest point?

The width of the fuselage at its widest point is 22mm on the 1/72 model = around 1,58 m.

 

[Tim52413]

The width of the fuselage at its widest point is 22mm on the 1/72 model = around 1,58 m.

Thank you very much.

 

[Deltafan]

Visited and marvelled at this progressing thread several times, am still amazed...

Given the prototype the Germans captured managed ~220 mph on its modest 'civilian' engine, must wonder what a 'MilSpec' or racer version could have reached...

Equipped with even an early / down-rated Merlin ??

Okay, that tail-merged canopy visibility was, at best, 'unfortunate' but, given the 'Toujours l'Audace !!' ethos of those likely to fly it, perhaps not a deal-breaker.

What would be snappy French for 'Lancers of the Sky' ??

Sadly, panic-paralysed France collapsed before Payen & Co might be invited to UK. But, given existing mass-production of Hurricanes & Spitfires to replace those obsolete turret-fighters, designs more suited to eg 'Spanish Civil War' air-combat, unlikely to have made a difference...

Tangential, must wonder how much the 'Maginot Line' blinkered French thinking at multiple levels, including air-combat....


Whimsy:
Nimble Payens briskly downing ME 110s and duelling ME 109s while DeLannes kerb-stomp Stukas remains an enduring 'What If'...
/

Hi Nik,

AFAIK, the German never "captured" (in the sense "confiscated") the Pa.22. The first time I read this information was in an article of Aipower from May 2003 (by Jared A. Zichek). It was probably a confusing translation error that the Germans wanted to transport him to Rechlin and that they had transported him to Rechlin. The information was taken up by Edwin M. Dyer in his book Japanese Secret Projects (who included the May 2003 edition of Airpower in the bibliography of his book).
Both indicate that the plane returned to France for repairs/modifications after the tests at Rechlin, but the plane never left France. He carried out tests (with a French pilot on the French field located near the manufacturer's workshops) with German markings, but these were the obligatory markings that French aircraft located in the part of France which was occupied by the Germans at that time had to carry.
The Germans actually wanted to send the Pa.22 to Rechlin for testing, but Roland Payen used the pretext of modifications (which he carried out very, very slowly) to keep the plane in France.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/japanese-secret-projects-experimental-aircraft-of-the-ija-ijn-1939-1945.6111/post-75026

Also, the 220 mph is just an estimate. The aircraft only had straight lines above the runway before being banned from flying by the occupier for external reasons (escapes or attempted escapes on other French planes, in particular test aircrafts, to England or North Africa).

Otherwise, Lancers of the Sky can be translated as Lanciers du ciel ou Lanciers célestes (but céleste is most often used in matters of religion).

To finish, I can only dream like you of a Payen with a Merlin (with counter-rotating propellers)... Some have imagined something similar (even if not with a Merlin, and even if, in my opinion, they did not make the best aerodynamic choices).

Casterman - Le Scandale Arès

Un synopsis original de Jacques Martin adapté pour les 70 ans du reporter !...

www.casterman.com

And others (like CiTrus90 or Slava Trudu) can make our dreams stronger/more realistic, even if not on a Pa.22 basis

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/payen-p-350-cd-slava-trudu-jpg.766199/

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/k28b-13a-small-jpg.660623/

 

[Tim52413]

Nice find my dear Deltafan.

Hello. How can I read this patent?

 

[PhR]

Is it a Payen design?

View attachment 658700



found here : https://www.ebay.de/itm/203488489880?hash=item2f60dbf198:g:ZB8AAOSwfLJgwM~G

It does more looks like the Rohr MO1: https://ingeniumcanada.org/fr/le-re...eindre-le-ciel-et-rugir-la-trop-breve-saga-de

 

[hesham]

Hello. How can I read this patent?

I can't find it again ?!.