« Kaze Tachinu » ("The Wind Rises"): Miyazaki's new anime movie

Going o/t but on a tangent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E5dB_9dW2SQ

R16,


Nakajima entered this competition,but withdrew at early stage,and never designed
anything.

possibly because they would get to build the K-43 ... Considering it grew into the '84 , the result wasn't particularly bad for Japan.

Grey Havoc:


I just heard of this movie this morning. I hope it sees wide release soon. The trailer gives the impression that it may be more sad than sentimental, but I have no doubt that it will evoke the world of prewar Japan powerfully. Denizens of these forums will note whatever liberties Miyazaki takes with Horikoshi's biography, but the airplane parts should impress--anyone who has seen Porco Rosso will probably agree.

We are careening off-topic, though, aren't we? It looks like the movie doesn't go past the A5M's debut.

Grey Havoc said:

Going o/t but on a tangent:

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Hmm......I must watch this movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaze_Tachinu

Apteryx said:

The trailer gives the impression that it may be more sad than sentimental, but I have no doubt that it will evoke the world of prewar Japan powerfully.

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Sadness has always been very much part of the anime and manga world, at least in the "classic" works (up to the 1980s). I've always wondered if this was a side-effect of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki tragedies. The way that Japan seems to have taken it all in stride and reconstructed quickly after the war is proof of that people's proud and industrious spirit, but the damage can't have been without consequences on that nation's psyche. The works of all the great masters (Leiji Matsumoto and Hayao Miyazaki, notably) are always permeated with a lot of sentimentality, but also sadness. Death is very often an integral part of their works, as are courage, pride, independence of spirit and friendship.

Miyazaki's new movie has a bit of the aviation magic of Porco Rosso in it, but also most certainly a lot of the sadness of Grave of the Fireflies, a movie that Miyazaki did not direct but produced and which carries its trademark style. The Ghibli studio's works are keeping alive the tradition of these wonderfully sad animes of our youth, such as Galaxy Express 999, Heidi, Captain Harlock, and many more. Both from a visual and spiritual viewpoint, they have not yielded to the sirens of all the recent types of anime series that have flooded the TV channels of our planet and encourage our imagination as well as our reflexion. Can't wait to see this new one!

Stargazer2006 said:

Sadness has always been very much part of the anime and manga world, at least in the "classic" works (up to the 1980s). I've always wondered if this was a side-effect of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki tragedies. The way that Japan seems to have taken it all in stride and reconstructed quickly after the war is proof of that people's proud and industrious spirit, but the damage can't have been without consequences on that nation's psyche. The works of all the great masters (Leiji Matsumoto and Hayao Miyazaki, notably) are always permeated with a lot of sentimentality, but also sadness. Death is very often an integral part of their works, as are courage, pride, independence of spirit and friendship.

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Sadness? That they didn’t get away with launching a war of aggression on half the world and break every single moral standard why doing so slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians and prisoners in the process. The only tragedy of the Pacific War was that the Japanese started it. Frankly they should consider themselves lucky they survived with so little damage that they did.

Please remember that the country which performed the war of aggression in the past is not only Japan.

I watched this movie in Hiroshima today. It'a fictionalized private history of Jiro Horikoshi(and Kiro Honjo).
Hayao Miyazaki loves 9-shi carrier fighter very much. Very maniac movie. This movie described following aircrafts.
Junkers G.38, Junkers F13, Caproni Ca60 Transaereo, Mitsubishi Hayabusa-sjiki fighter(1927), A3M, A5M, A6M, etc

blackkite said:

Please remember that the country which performed the war of aggression in the past is not only Japan.

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The war that followed on the heels of the events this movie apparently glorifies *was* started solely by Japan. Please remember that.

Can we lay off the who started WW2 argument?

Orionblamblam said:

The war that followed on the heels of the events this movie apparently glorifies *was* started solely by Japan. Please remember that.

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Also if this movie is about the time of the development of the Mitsubishi A5M Japan was well underway in their unprovoked and horrific war against China.

PaulMM (Overscan) said:

Can we lay off the who started WW2 argument?

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There's an argument about it?

I don't see its relevance to the discussion of this animated movie. Its not exactly a documentary.

For Christ's sake, I wasn't talking about who started the war or anything. I was talking about being nuked. Being used as a large-scale experiment for a previously non-tested weapon that doesn't just kill but leaves dire lifelong crippling consequences on those who survive. And as usual, you guys fall into that same old trap of saying "they" started it, implying that all Japanese people wanted that war.

You should know better by now that the people of this planet at large would rather live in peace. It's always a handful of leaders that want wars, start wars, end wars, but it's the people at large that wage it and suffer.

I'm extremely disappointed that a topic that wasn't meant to go sour is getting diverted off-course because of such backwarded and inhumane comments implying that "they got what they deserved".

Stargazer2006 said:

For Christ's sake, I wasn't talking about who started the war or anything. I was talking about being nuked. Being used as a large-scale experiment for a previously non-tested weapon that doesn't just kill but leaves dire lifelong crippling consequences on those who survive.

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Yeah I thought I suspected some typical ignorant nuclear hysteria in your original post. So much worse for the Japanese to have been nuked than to have been killed by less hysterical weapons like fire-bombing or more old fashioned effects of warfare like starvation caused by economic dislocation. Of course the actual human suffering caused by these two nuclear bombs is much less than these other weapons and is also much less than what the Japanese military inflicted using good old fashioned cold steel across Asia and the Pacific from 1933-45.

Stargazer2006 said:

And as usual, you guys fall into that same old trap of saying "they" started it, implying that all Japanese people wanted that war.

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Who said that all Japanese people wanted the war? No one. As for guilt being allocated to the party that committed the crime that is a pretty well established legal and moral concept. The use of force against Japan to destroy their military capability – which included various bombings of Japanese cities – was just legitimate self defence.

It is of course unpleasant that many Japanese civilians were killed or injured but they were not unrelated parties to the war – being actively involved in supporting their war machine – and responsibility for their exposure to war is entirely on the heads of the leadership of the Japanese state in choosing to start the war.

Stargazer2006 said:

You should know better by now that the people of this planet at large would rather live in peace. It's always a handful of leaders that want wars, start wars, end wars, but it's the people at large that wage it and suffer.

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The people of any nation are responsible for their own domestic leadership. There was little Japanese civil opposition to the war and their leadership having spent 20 plus years before the war committing their national wealth to military expansion. This movie is about someone – Horikoshi – no one in or out of Japan would have heard of if his state leadership were not spending almost the entire national budget on the military. Just because they all regret it now thanks to the bitter reaping of what they sowed does not alleviate the Japanese people and nation for the great guilt of inflicting a huge war upon other people and ultimately themselves when things went sour for them.

Stargazer2006 said:

I'm extremely disappointed that a topic that wasn't meant to go sour is getting diverted off-course because of such backwarded and inhumane comments implying that "they got what they deserved".

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Of course this topic won’t go sour if you don’t want to think about what it all means. Horikoshi designed weapons for an evil regime that used them to kill millions of people. I’ve got no problem with Miyazaki when he is making films about tree spirits and even feeling regret for the loss of their war. But glorifying Japan’s preparation for inflicting war upon the Asia Pacific is too much.

And yes they did get what they deserved. Because it was the only thing that made them stop their war.

If you are going to back up this shallow relativism with any real moral thought perhaps you’d like to tell the forum that there never should have been any bombing of Germany? So no poor Germans were killed and they could still be running France and doing what they please there.

Abraham Gubler said:

If you are going to back up this shallow relativism with any real moral thought perhaps you’d like to tell the forum that there never should have been any bombing of Germany? So no poor Germans were killed and they could still be running France and doing what they please there.

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I don't think the two situations can even be compared.

Hitler came to power with the consent and even backing of a vast part of the population.

Hirohito was the heir of an imperial dynasty, considered a demi-god walking among people. You did not contend with such an authority in traditional Japan. You did not even question the validity of their decisions.

Also the build-up of nazism took two decades, during which the people had ample time to see where he was headed to and react: ethnic cleansing, brutal imperialism and the cult of the leader were all obvious as early as the late 1920s, and certainly after 1933 no-one could seriously doubt that Hitler's agenda was one of defiance of Germany's neighbors, conquest and domination by any means possible. After all it had all been written in his manifesto back in 1923.

I don't think the decision for Japan to start war was something that was as obvious or that developed over such a long period. At most I certainly don't believe anyone in the Japanese public had any notion their country was going to wage a semi-global war. I don't even think America was seen, even remotely, as a potential enemy by the population. There was an admiration of America's values, the most popular sport there was baseball, etc... There was a build-up of military power for years of course, but the enemy until then had always been China and there was no reason for the people at large to believe there could be another agenda than preparing for the next clash with the giant neighboring country.

Stargazer2006 said:

There was a build-up of military power for years of course, but the enemy until then had always been China and there was no reason for the people at large to believe there could be another agenda than preparing for the next clash with the giant neighboring country.

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So it was OK for the Japanese to invade and try to destroy China? Their plans for China being not disimilar to the Nazi's plans for the Soviet Union.

Of course the Japanese were hyper agressive to the west between the wars. Just because they played baseball did not mean that the dominant elements of Japanese politics were extremely xenophobic to Europeans and wanted to control European colonies in South East Asia for their own means.

Plus just because the Germans had the Weimar Republic did not mean they did not have a similar autocratic tradition to the Japanese dating back centuries. Just like France in the late 18th century. Which is why both nations quickly reverted to despotism.

I would feel far more comfortable with the subject of this film if the Japanese had done even as _tenth_ as good a job teaching themselves about the history of the war they started as have the Germans taught themselves about their war starting.

Stargazer2006 said:

Hitler came to power with the consent and even backing of a vast part of the population.

Hirohito was the heir of an imperial dynasty, considered a demi-god walking among people.

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Consider which one says worse things about the populations: one group got suckered by a politician, then other was suckered by *generations* of a cult. Then consider the post-war changes to the populations: one rejected, wholesale, the personalities that led the to war. The other still has an emperor. Reduced, perhaps, but still.


Also, imagine a fictionalized movie about the early life and adventures of one Werner von Braun, from a wide-eyed kid dreaming of the stars to a successful program manager launching the first rocket into space. Imagine such a movie *not* dealing with the larger picture... where did he get the funding, who's pulling the strings and what their goals are. Sure, it's possible. Fictionalize it enough and you can ignore a lot. But it'd be damned peculiar, and a lot of people would be annoyed.

"The Andrei Tupolev Story: Now without that pesky political prison stuff."

I can see your point OBB. But one can be admirative of a certain design bureau, engineer or scientist and not necessarily condone the regime that gave them the money to pursue their research. And it's still an author's right or a director's right to tell the biased story of an engineer's dreams, regardless of the political regime behind it. Depends on what he wants to put the focus on. These engineers and workers all laboured for regimes that were less than commendable, but that doesn't preclude the fact that they enthusiastically put all their faith and energy into it because ultimately a scientist, an engineer want their research to keep going, and these stories may be worth telling, not from the larger historical viewpoint (hindsight is always so wise) but from the perspective of a young man's naive dreams and patriotism. That Von Braun or that Japanese engineer were brainwashed or blinded in the process is evident, and calls for no excuses. But it doesn't diminish the power of their genius. Of course not giving the whole picture, as you rightly said, is not right, but very honestly I do not know if that's the case in this particular movie.

About the movie (once the subject of the thread ) Looks like Miyazaki is once paying hommage to his father work on the A6M Zero in WWII.

Grave of the fireflies: most.depressing.anime.ever. Never imagined before how it felt to be on a city as hundreds of B-29s drop white phosphorus on it. Streaks of fire falling from the sky into an ocean of flame. Dreadful.
And yet a tad later the same guy (Takahata) somewhat made the Japanese simpsons, the Yamadas. Go figure.

This movie is drawing a warplane designer's joy and suffering.
To the unreasonable demand(long range, high speed)of the IJN, Horikoshi and Honjo fought to realize it somehow, and they completed the wonderful and beautiful airplane by a weight saving and low resistance-ization.
However, bulletproof equipment was missing and it has made many pilots die as a result.
The designer expected becoming such.
Since it is clear to disappoint many spectators as it is a too much maniac movie for aircraft lovers, some Horikoshi's lives are dramatized.
I forget to tell you that this movie also describe G3M.
In the dream, Horikoshi met Caproni. This movie also describe Caproni Ca60 crush.

Thanks blackkite. I'm sorry but I think none of us will understand what you mean by your misuse of the word "maniac" here...

Sorry for my poor English. ;D What should I use instead of maniac? We sometimes use this word in Japan.

blackkite said:

Sorry for my poor English. ;D What should I use instead of maniac? We sometimes use this word in Japan.

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I don't know! If I knew what you're trying to say it would help...

Stargazer2006 said:

blackkite said:

Sorry for my poor English. ;D What should I use instead of maniac? We sometimes use this word in Japan.

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I don't know! If I knew what you're trying to say it would help...

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Does it have something to do with tentacles?

Stargazer2006 said:

I don't think the decision for Japan to start war was something that was as obvious or that developed over such a long period. At most I certainly don't believe anyone in the Japanese public had any notion their country was going to wage a semi-global war. I don't even think America was seen, even remotely, as a potential enemy by the population. There was an admiration of America's values, the most popular sport there was baseball, etc... There was a build-up of military power for years of course, but the enemy until then had always been China and there was no reason for the people at large to believe there could be another agenda than preparing for the next clash with the giant neighboring country.

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I know you don't mean it to be, but man is that condescending. How is Germany fully culpable and Japan an unwitting accomplice?

"maniac" is an English word imported into Japanese, but with the meaning of "fan". There are a lot of these kinds of mutated English, for example the Japanese English word "handle" means "steering wheel".

starviking said:

"maniac" is an English word imported into Japanese, but with the meaning of "fan". There are a lot of these kinds of mutated English, for example the Japanese English word "handle" means "steering wheel".

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Hrrrrmm. "Since it is clear to disappoint many spectators as it is a too much fan movie, some Horikoshi's lives are dramatized."

That doesn't seem to make it much clearer.

Maniac used to mean in English english an obsessive person. Its just American influence that has made maniac mean more of a violent, out of control person.

Abraham Gubler said:

Maniac used to mean in English english an obsessive person. Its just American influence that has made maniac mean more of a violent, out of control person.

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Buh?
ma·ni·ac noun 1. a raving or violently insane person; lunatic. 2. any intemperate or overly zealous or enthusiastic person: a maniac when it comes to details. adjective 3. maniacal.
Origin:
1595–1605; < Medieval Latin maniacus of, pertaining to madness.

The Medieval Latin would seem to suggest that crazy was there in "maniac" from the beginning. Also:
[C17:fromLateLatinmaniacusbelonging to madness, from Greek]

Yay! Etymology! Soon we'll wrench this sucker over to a discussion of DigiPokeVoltRangers...

How about follwing explanation?
Hayao Miyazaki is an airplane fan and loves a 9-shi carrier fighter.
Miyazaki wanted to make the movie describing Jiro Horikoshi who was a designer of a 9-shi carrier fighter.
However, although the movie describing the airplane designer's work is interesting for an airplane fan, but for the usual movie fan, it is not interesting at all.
Then, Miyazaki added the fictitious drama to Horikoshi's life.
The fiction was as follows,
“Horikoshi married the woman who suffered from tuberculosis and the woman passed away. “
Tatsuo Hori who was a Japanese novelist lost the fiance with tuberculosis, and he wrote the novel
"The wind rises(風立ちぬ)" from the experience.
The title of a novel with "The wind rises(風立ちぬ)", was extracted from the poem "cemetery of the beach"(Le Cimetière Marin)by French poet Ambroise Paul Toussaint Jules Valéry.
That is as follows,
"A wind rises! -- ! We must try to live!" （Le vent se lève, il faut tenter de vivre）.
Hayao Miyazaki named the movie describing Jiro Horikoshi as “The wind rises”
I saw this movie and the tear came out of me. (126minutes movie)

Has anyone here actually seen the film yet?

Orionblamblam said:

Abraham Gubler said:

Maniac used to mean in English english an obsessive person. Its just American influence that has made maniac mean more of a violent, out of control person.

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Buh?
ma·ni·ac noun 1. a raving or violently insane person; lunatic. 2. any intemperate or overly zealous or enthusiastic person: a maniac when it comes to details. adjective 3. maniacal.
Origin:
1595–1605; < Medieval Latin maniacus of, pertaining to madness.

The Medieval Latin would seem to suggest that crazy was there in "maniac" from the beginning. Also:
[C17:fromLateLatinmaniacusbelonging to madness, from Greek]

Yay! Etymology! Soon we'll wrench this sucker over to a discussion of DigiPokeVoltRangers...

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It’s not about etymology it’s about common usages. And in the era before TV and the subsequent levelling of English internationally maniac was commonly used to describe an obsessive fan in the UK and Commonwealth and in America a violent lunatic. Which goes to show something many people don’t realise that American English is actually a more traditional form of English than British Empire English.

And of course in this context, 'fan' is a shortened form of 'fanatic', which is now also starting to develop a connotation of violent lunacy...
Returning to the subject of the film, so it's a sort of Japanese, animated, 'First of the Few'...?

cheers,
Robin.

Maniac and dramatic movie. ;D
The heroine's voice actor is Miori Takimoto.
One of the most beautiful young actress in Japan.
You can hear her pretty voice in Grey's beginning post.
And other beauties and Kiro Honjo. Sorry for off topic.

Madurai said:

Has anyone here actually seen the film yet?

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I thought it was clear by now that blackkite has seen it. I think he said it at least twice... :

blackkite said:

The heroine's voice actor is Miori Takimoto.
One of the most beautiful young actress in Japan.

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Beautiful young lady indeed!

Madurai said:

Maniac and dramatic movie.

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I suppose that by saying this film is "maniac" you meant that it was the work of a fan... not that it was completely mad!

Such changes in meaning happen all the time between languages. I could make a very long list for instance or such English/French and French/English nonsense...

Stargazer2006 said:

Beautiful young lady indeed!

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Yes, yes. But does she transform into a giant robot that shoots cruise missiles made out of balsa wood and shark skin?

I could make a very long list for instance or such English/French and French/English nonsense...

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Nothing beats: http://www.engrish.com/

Orionblamblam said:

Nothing beats: http://www.engrish.com/

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See also:
http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.fi/search/label/untranslatable

Orionblamblam said:

Nothing beats: http://www.engrish.com/

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You missed my point here. I'm talking about expressions and words used in everyday English that are supposed to be French but do not mean the same thing at all in French!
And reversely, expressions and words used in everyday French that are supposed to be English.

Stargazer2006 said:

I'm talking about expressions and words used in everyday English that are supposed to be French but do not mean the same thing at all in French!

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_phrases_used_by_English_speakers

As the saying goes: "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
Once a non-English word enters the English language, it's *ours.*

expressions and words used in everyday French that are supposed to be English.

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Doesn't France have some sort of government agency that spends its days ulcerating about English words sneaking into French, and inventing French equivalents?