WW1 and WW2 Never Built Warship Designs

[Godzilla37]

Are there any lesser known WW1 or WW2 never-built warship designs?

 

[Hood]

Could you please quantify your request? What do you mean by "lesser known"?
There would well be over hundred such never-built designs for both world wars, including all the involved nations.
Many of them you'll find through searching this section of the forum.

 

[Tzoli]

I would say a few thousand unrealized projects, designs, preliminaries and refit/modernization proposals from submarines through corvettes and frigates/avisos, cruisers to battleships and carriers.
Indeed what is lesser known means to you?

 

[Antonio]

Are there any lesser known WW1 or WW2 never-built warship designs?

Just, browse along this section...

 

[Godzilla37]

I would say a few thousand unrealized projects, designs, preliminaries and refit/modernization proposals from submarines through corvettes and frigates/avisos, cruisers to battleships and carriers.
Indeed what is lesser known means to you?

Like cruiser, destroyer and battleship designs from WW1 and 2 from South America, Poland, Romania, Asia, Netherlands etc. Lesser known designs to me are non-major designs that aren't from the major world powers during WW1 and 2. Ones that have drawings, pictures and stats.

 

[DWG]

Yes to pretty much all of the above, with the caveat that they all went to the major powers for their designs.

See the South American Dreadnought Race for one famous group of designs.

 

[cattalonX]

For wows?

 

[Tzoli]

Select one country. If you want Asia excluding Japan that will be a short list.

 

[cattalonX]

BB/BC Pre-designs (Never Builts)

Preliminary designs for the Viribus Unitis, Improved Tegetthoff and BB/BC designs

viribusunitis.ca

 

[Godzilla37]

For wows?

Yes because WOWS has been coming up with lazy and stupid ships like the premium tier IX battleship Changzheng (A hypothetical project for the modernization of a Yamato-class battleship, transferred after the war to the Chinese fleet, and modernized with the participation of USSR specialists to fit Soviet weapons and electronics) and the premium tier IX cruiser Tianjin (A heavy cruiser with a similar design to the early version of Soviet Project 82, initially equipped with nine 220 mm guns as her main armament (tier IX crusier Riga). The ship's main battery guns are complemented by dual-purpose and anti-aircraft guns that were developed by the mid-1950s, around the time the ship could have been transferred to the People's Republic of China Navy had history taken a different course)

 

[Godzilla37]

Select one country. If you want Asia excluding Japan that will be a short list.

Ok Asia first then

 

[Godzilla37]

Could you please quantify your request? What do you mean by "lesser known"?
There would well be over hundred such never-built designs for both world wars, including all the involved nations.
Many of them you'll find through searching this section of the forum.

There are so many pages of post-war ever-built designs over the 12 pages that exist, I've already looked through most of them which are from major powers.

 

[Arjen]

I didn´t know what WOWS stood for.
This is what I think is meant:
World Of WarshipS multiplayer online game

The game features combat missions, challenges, campaigns and collections for the sake of creating extra goals, rewards and a meaningful progression for players during their time with the game. These systems also give an opportunity of creating stories inside or outside the military or historical genres. Some special Halloween, April Fools, and other holiday battle modes appear in the game. The secondary goal of the "holiday modes" is to test new game mechanics. Temporary anime tie-in events have occurred, featuring ships and characters (as ship commanders) from High School Fleet, Azur Lane, and Arpeggio of Blue Steel. Other events have used science-fiction-themed ships and environments, but not tied to a specific franchise.

WOWS has been coming up with lazy and stupid ships like the premium tier IX battleship Changzheng <snip>

Lazy and stupid indeed.

Just, browse along this section...

Ditto.

 

[Tzoli]

That is disgusting! And no way the USN would give the largest battleship afloat to Communist China! To be used against the US!

 

[Godzilla37]

Sometimes I wonder who comes up with ideas for premium ships at WG because they are currently either bringing copy-paste speculative ships or ships that are at lower tiers to higher tiers like the premium battleship Rhode Island which is just a tier X Florida also known as Project XVI. WOWS hasn't gotten a really interesting premium ship recently. Even people who aren't developers could come up with ships like this.

Original:


New:

 

[Tzoli]

For Asia
Designs for China:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/imperial-and-nationalist-china-warship-projects.35528/

These are for Nationalist China. I do not know projects for the two other Cliques that had access to the sea: Manchuria and Guangxi Clique.

For other Asian countries that leaves Thailand/Siam. Though there are only 4+1 projects I know.
The Naresuan class Light Cruisers which became the Etna class in Italian non-service
Vickers Export designs:
A Destroyer in 1938
A Light Cruiser Design 1087 in 1938
Armstrong designs:
An Armoured Cruiser Design 423 in 1903
Also 4 more sister ships for the Sinsamudar class Submarines

I do not know any projects for the Philippines, India or Burma/Myanmar.
And that is all for Asia.
All current existing countries there did not existed pre-WW2.

 

[Dilandu]

I didn´t know what WOWS stood for.
This is what I think is meant:
World Of WarshipS multiplayer online game

It's them, yeah. And to think that less than ten years ago their team was actually quite embarassed when they put "Emden" (premium German cruiser of WW1) fake funnel the wrong place, and players noticed that...

 

[drwells42]

Wayne Smith's e-book "The Fleet That Never Was" is in most respects a catalog of Alnavo's 1/1200 miniatures of "never built" ships, but many of them have at least some connection to reality. Caveat Emptor.

https://alnavco.com/content/modeling_historic_notes/pdfs/alnavco_the_fleet_that_never_was.pdf

DRW

 

[Godzilla37]

A Destroyer in 1938
A Light Cruiser Design 1087 in 1938

Any info on these designs

 

[Tzoli]

Vickers Destroyer Export Design 1056 from 1938:
Displacement: 2.000tons (standard) 2.320tons (full load)
Dimensions: 106,68(pp) x 11,43 x 3,27 meters
Armament:
2x1 120mm/45 QF Mk IX
2x1 76mm/45 QF HA Mk IV
2x4 533mm Torpedo Tubes

Vickers Light Cruiser Export Design 1087 from 1938:
Displacement: 4.550tons (standard)
Dimensions: 137,16(pp) x 144,78(wl) x 145,69(oa) x 14,48 x 4,34 meters
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armour: 50mm over Magazines, 75mm Over Machinery Belt, 40mm Deck
Armament:
3x2 150mm/50 likely Wilton-Fijenoord Mark 9 or a Bofors Gun
6x1 75mm/50 likely Bofors m/36
4x2 40mm/56 Bofors m/36
2x3 457 or 533mm Torpedo Tubes

 

[cattalonX]

For Asia
Designs for China:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/imperial-and-nationalist-china-warship-projects.35528/

These are for Nationalist China. I do not know projects for the two other Cliques that had access to the sea: Manchuria and Guangxi Clique.

For other Asian countries that leaves Thailand/Siam. Though there are only 4+1 projects I know.
The Naresuan class Light Cruisers which became the Etna class in Italian non-service
Vickers Export designs:
A Destroyer in 1938
A Light Cruiser Design 1087 in 1938
Armstrong designs:
An Armoured Cruiser Design 423 in 1903
Also 4 more sister ships for the Sinsamudar class Submarines

I do not know any projects for the Philippines, India or Burma/Myanmar.
And that is all for Asia.
All current existing countries there did not existed pre-WW2.

Japan also has export cruise designs for Thailand，But there is no detailed information

 

[Tzoli]

Dhonburi preliminaries?
And CL proposals?

 

[SSgtC]

It's them, yeah. And to think that less than ten years ago their team was actually quite embarassed when they put "Emden" (premium German cruiser of WW1) fake funnel the wrong place, and players noticed that...

That's because once they realized that it wasn't going to affect the revenue stream, they also realized they no longer had to care.

 

[Godzilla37]

Vickers Light Cruiser Export Design 1087 from 1938:

Any drawings for this export design?

 

[cattalonX]

Dhonburi preliminaries?
And CL proposals?

Naresuan class's competitors,Kawasaki's design

 

[Tzoli]

Any drawings for this export design?

Nope, except if you visit the British Vickers archives or the Thai Naval archives

 

[cattalonX]

Design 1087

 

[DWG]

Yes because WOWS has been coming up with lazy and stupid ships like the premium tier IX battleship Changzheng (A hypothetical project for the modernization of a Yamato-class battleship, transferred after the war to the Chinese fleet, and modernized with the participation of USSR specialists to fit Soviet weapons and electronics) and the premium tier IX cruiser Tianjin (A heavy cruiser with a similar design to the early version of Soviet Project 82, initially equipped with nine 220 mm guns as her main armament (tier IX crusier Riga). The ship's main battery guns are complemented by dual-purpose and anti-aircraft guns that were developed by the mid-1950s, around the time the ship could have been transferred to the People's Republic of China Navy had history taken a different course)

To be fair to WOWS, they have Chinese fans who want to use Chinese ships, but the last time the Chinese navy seriously looked at purchasing a battleship or heavy cruiser was 1908, so they have to get inventive.

 

[Godzilla37]

Where there any British inter-war battleship designs like the L2 offered to Spain?

 

[Tzoli]

A ton. And L2 was not offered to Spain. The N3/G3 series were Top Secret at the time. Vickers offered a Nelson like design for Spain.

 

[cattalonX]

Where there any British inter-war battleship designs like the L2 offered to Spain?

Those things are too big and too expensive for a small country

 

[cattalonX]

To be fair to WOWS, they have Chinese fans who want to use Chinese ships, but the last time the Chinese navy seriously looked at purchasing a battleship or heavy cruiser was 1908, so they have to get inventive.

Well，Based on the Commonwealth Technology Tree, an improved Hawkins Class cruiser was placed at Tier 9，I think those export designs that Japan gave to China in the 1930s could be modified to make an entire heavy cruiser tree.

 

[DWG]

Where there any British inter-war battleship designs like the L2 offered to Spain?

It's important to remember that the Washington Treaty barred the signatories from building battleships for export, so in general there's no trade in battleships from 1922 until the building holiday expired in the 1930s. However the UK and Spain were in a unique position, there was a Vickers shipyard actually in Spain.

 

[Godzilla37]

What was the largest battleship design offered to Spain? Since Italy offered Spain to build four Vittorio Veneto class battleships (providing all of the necessary material and modernizing the Spanish shipyards to build them) would it have been possible for Italy to have offered Spain the UP41 design if Italy didn't enter WW2?

 

[cattalonX]

What was the largest battleship design offered to Spain? Since Italy offered Spain to build four Vittorio Veneto class battleships (providing all of the necessary material and modernizing the Spanish shipyards to build them) would it have been possible for Italy to have offered Spain the UP41 design if Italy didn't enter WW2?

No UP41,no ship for wows

 

[DWG]

What was the largest battleship design offered to Spain? Since Italy offered Spain to build four Vittorio Veneto class battleships (providing all of the necessary material and modernizing the Spanish shipyards to build them) would it have been possible for Italy to have offered Spain the UP41 design if Italy didn't enter WW2?

The España class were the smallest dreadnoughts of all, and that was without an economy wrecked by civil war. If Italy wanted Spain building Vittori Venetos then supplying all the necessary materials would have to include all the gold needed to fund them. Chances of them being able to fund even one UP41 are pretty minimal.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Certainly didn't help that the Soviet Union had effectively stolen most of Spain's gold reserves during the latter part of the Spanish Civil War.

 

[Dilandu]

It's important to remember that the Washington Treaty barred the signatories from building battleships for export, so in general there's no trade in battleships from 1922 until the building holiday expired in the 1930s. However the UK and Spain were in a unique position, there was a Vickers shipyard actually in Spain.

Actually it didn't. Articles XV, XVI and XVII specifically dealt with this matter:

Article XV

No vessel of war constructed within the jurisdiction of any of the Contracting Powers for a non-Contracting Power shall exceed the limitations as to displacement and armament prescribed by the present Treaty for vessels of a similar type which may be constructed by or for any of the Contracting Powers; provided, however, that the displacement for aircraft carriers constructed for a non-Contracting Power shall in no case exceed 27,000 tons (27,432 metric tons) standard displacement.

Article XVI

If the construction of any vessel of war for a non-Contracting Power is undertaken within the jurisdiction of any of the Contracting Powers, such Power shall promptly inform the other Contracting Powers of the date of the signing of the contract and the date on which the keel of the ship is laid; and shall also communicate to them the particulars relating to the ship prescribed in Chapter II, Part 3, Section I (b), (4) and (5).

Article XVII

In the event of a Contracting Power being engaged in war, such Power shall not use as a vessel of war any vessel of war which may be under construction within its jurisdiction for any other Power, or which may have been constructed within its jurisdiction for another Power and not delivered.

The misconception of "Washington treaty limited export" was born out of British inter-war paranoia - the notion that export building of warships could be somehow used by USA and Japan to either claim that Britain broke the treaty (and thus they aren't obliged to it anymore) or claim that due to threat of non-participating countries the terms must be re-evaluated. Basically Britain feared that other nations need only an excuse to start a new naval arm-race - to which Britain in late 1920s - early 1930s was even less prepared than in 1922.

 

[Godzilla37]

Some very interesting designs I found from https://alnavco.com/content/modeling_historic_notes/pdfs/alnavco_the_fleet_that_never_was.pdf which I have never heard of before:
US Max Fast BB: Displacement: 72,500 tons Length: 975' Width: 107' Speed: 30 knots Armament: 8-20”(4x2) and 20-5”/38(10x2)
US CA Scheme M: Date: June 1940 Displacement: 17,300 tons Length: 735’ Width: 74’ 82 Speed: 33.2 knots Armament: 10-10” (2x2,2x3)

 

[drwells42]

Some interesting things I found from https://alnavco.com/content/modeling_historic_notes/pdfs/alnavco_the_fleet_that_never_was.pdf so far:
US Max Fast BB: Displacement: 72,500 tons Length: 975' Width: 107' Speed: 30 knots Armament: 8-20”(4x2) and 20-5”/38(10x2)
US CA Scheme M: Date: June 1940 Displacement: 17,300 tons Length: 735’ Width: 74’ 82 Speed: 33.2 knots Armament: 10-10” (2x2,2x3)

Off the top of my head, I can verify the 72,000 ton fast battleship. It is one of the two "Maximum Battleships of 1934". It is documented in Friedman's "U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History" pg. 235. If there is a drawing of the fast version, I have never seen it.

I'll have to look up the cruiser.

DRW