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What is the accuracy of Surface to Air Missile in 1960's ?

Michel Van

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in some Forums, are allot dispute about 1960's SAM accuracy
particularly in the Alternate history forum with U.S. vs USSR war topics

one say the Soviet bomber never makes true Nike Hercules or Nike Ajax defence.
other say the B-52 are easy prey for Soviet SA-1 Guild (S-25 Berkut) or SA-2 Guideline (S-75 Dvina)
while other counter, the Bomber have ECM to defend there self

in SIOP-62 plans SAC expected a lost of 25,5% on "Delivery Systems"
Source: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB130/SIOP-14.pdf
found here http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB130/index.htm

so is there real answer to that question ?
 

sferrin

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For the B-52 vs SA-2 check Vietnam. For the Nike Hercules and Hawk well, they were both able to knock down tactical ballistic missiles so I doubt a Bear would have presented much of a challenge. I suppose it would have come down to the effectiveness of their ECM and I haven't the faintest idea there.
 

Michel Van

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sferrin said:
For the B-52 vs SA-2 check Vietnam. For the Nike Hercules and Hawk well, they were both able to knock down tactical ballistic missiles so I doubt a Bear would have presented much of a challenge. I suppose it would have come down to the effectiveness of their ECM and I haven't the faintest idea there.

over Soviet 1960's ECM i found almost nothing
seem they (begin 1960's) Dispersal small aluminum strips called chaff
while later (around 1964) they used special Bomber with ECM system
but there also drop massive small aluminum strips

for B-52 vs SA-2


i have some data on Operation Linebacker II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Linebacker_II
741 B-52s, 729 completed their missions, 10 shot down by SAM, 2 crash
first night
129 B-52 against estimated 220 SA-2 result 3 shot down B-52
third night
99 U.S. Bomber against 300 SA-2 result 5 shot down B-52
so 60 SAM for one B-52
allot dispute about Operation Linebacker was,
who good was North Vietnam air defense forces ?
better or worse as the more sophisticated air defense environment of the Soviet Union ?
 

Just call me Ray

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One of the surprising results of the B-52 vs. SA-2 engagements was the B-52s amazing ability to basically act like a missile sponge. There's one at the USAF museum that came home after taking about a dozen or so SA-2s. Compare this to most other tactical aircraft, such as Cunningham and Driscoll's F-4 that was brought down by just one.
 

sferrin

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Were any direct hits that exploded or were the "hits" near misses that didn't impact due to ECM?
 

AeroFranz

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Hmmpfhh...don't have the article with me...there was somewhere in Air and space mag a good article on Linebacker. It said basically the B-52s were sent at the same time and from the same direction each day, making the NV SAM operators' lives much easier.
60 SA-2 for each B-52 is a favorable exchange ratio for the defenders. I think later saner heads prevailed and B-52 losses went down.
 

sferrin

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AeroFranz said:
Hmmpfhh...don't have the article with me...there was somewhere in Air and space mag a good article on Linebacker. It said basically the B-52s were sent at the same time and from the same direction each day, making the NV SAM operators' lives much easier.
60 SA-2 for each B-52 is a favorable exchange ratio for the defenders. I think later saner heads prevailed and B-52 losses went down.

I hear stuff like that (and the F-117 shootdown) and you just have to wonder. You'd think "don't fly the same path every day" would have been drilled in going clear back to WWI. "Five o'clock Charlie" anybody?
 

Avimimus

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Yes, the F-117 shootdown claim is almost believable. It just depends on how much store you put by radar reduction vs. giving away your flightpath through uncoded, unencrypted, radio conversations. :eek:

Seriously: Exactly what is the point of using a stealth fighter if your not going to at least use some kind of verbal obfuscation? ::)
 

Michel Van

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sferrin said:
Were any direct hits that exploded or were the "hits" near misses that didn't impact due to ECM?

that a common misunderstanding, the SA-2 had to Hit the enemy plane.
in fact the rocket had to get so close as possibly and explode
the scrappnel and shockwave make the rest, no wonder the B-52 is build so tuff

just like Nike Hercules
whoever the had also a nuclear version for Soviet bombers fleed...

in Vietnam the F-4 had ECM pod, who scramble the Radar of SA-2

on F-117 here wiki
One F-117 has been lost in combat, to the Yugoslav Army. On 27 March 1999, during the Kosovo War, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani[33], equipped with the Isayev S-125 'Neva' (NATO designation SA-3 'Goa') anti-aircraft missile system, downed a F-117A callsign "Vega 31," AF Serial Number 82-0806, with a Serbian improved Neva-M missile.[34][35] According to NATO Commander Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defences detected F-117s by operating their radars on unusually long wavelengths, making them visible to radar for brief periods.
 

Archibald

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We frenchies killed a Tu-22 Blinder with a Hawk in Chad, circa 1987 (only to find that the pilot was from... East Germany ??? )
 

Jemiba

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"..that a common misunderstanding, the SA-2 had to Hit the enemy plane"

That's were the Rapier got its nickname "hit-ile", contrary to "miss-ile", as it
really had to achieve a direct hit, unusual at its times ! ;)
 

Michel Van

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back to theme

after Operation Linebacker II data
2 % of The B-52 were lost
25,5% was SAC estimate in 1960

had the 1960's Soviet bomber same survival rate ?
or had this ended in a "Skeet shooting" for USAF...
 

boxkite

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Archibald said:
We frenchies killed a Tu-22 Blinder with a Hawk in Chad, circa 1987 (only to find that the pilot was from... East Germany ??? )

In my opinion this is hoax! What is the source for this assertion?
 

AL

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Air Enthusiast No.117 May/June 2005, 'Bombed by"Blinders"' by Tom Cooper, Farzad Bishop, & Arthur Hubers
 

geeshockbloke

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my mate Rod was at njamena aiport when it was bombed 24th Feb 87

the following from airwars and aircraft by victor flintham -

the french 403rd aaa regiment brought down a blinder with a hawk on 7th september 87

the hawks replaced crotale as crotale couldn't reach the blinders on the 1st raid

hawks lifted in by usaf galaxies

g
 

boxkite

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boxkite said:
Archibald said:
We frenchies killed a Tu-22 Blinder with a Hawk in Chad, circa 1987 (only to find that the pilot was from... East Germany ??? )

In my opinion this is hoax! What is the source for this assertion?

AL said:
Air Enthusiast No.117 May/June 2005, 'Bombed by"Blinders"' by Tom Cooper, Farzad Bishop, & Arthur Hubers

I've asked members in other forums. They said Tu-22 pilots (and ground crews) from the GDR are total nonsense. One of them believes that Tom Cooper himself has withdrawn his assertion (unfortunately I don't know where).

Btw, the training of the Libyan (and Iraqi) pilots took place at Zyabrovka airbase in Belorussia (see Aerofax "Tupolev Tu-22 'Blinder' and Tu-22M 'Backfire'. Russia's long range supersonic bombers" page 46).

Sorry for off-topic, moderators ;) .
 

Jemiba

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" ..They said Tu-22 pilots (and ground crews) from the GDR are total nonsense."

And as the Blinder was never part of the inventory of the NVA (national peoples army),
it is quite unlikely either, that there ever were pilots from the GDR, who were qualified
on the Tu-22, I think !
 

lastdingo

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The Linebacker exchange and loss ratios are misleading.
The situation was very different than the one the bombers were made for.

Lots of fighter-bombers were used in addition to the bombers, jamming by specialized jamming planes was used and drones were used to bait the defences.

A USA vs USSR strategic bombing conflict would have been much less complex - but on the other hand there would have been very different defences.

The massive SAM defences of the USSR were in large part a nonsense fantasy of the U.S. "intelligence" services, like much of the Warsaw Pact threat.
The Soviet bombers would have faced almost no SAMs, but some interceptors which were armed mostly with rather poor AAMs like Falcon - even direct hits might have failed to achieve much.
 

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What are you really looking for: A. Missile accuracy (average miss distance) or B. Bomber Survivability vs US and Soviet Air Defenses?

Ref: The "tough" B-52 vs "vulnerable" fighters: Make sure you understand what you're comparing, the B-52 is much less densly packed, compared to the fighter, so a piece of frag is much more likely to hit something vital, given a random strike anywhere on the airframe. Cuningham's F-4 was brought down by hydraulic failure (lines cut). This was because lines ran together, a design trait since expounged from fighter DNA. I think if you look at the design of the B-52 and the design of the F-4, - from the point of view of airframe "toughness" (that is how much structure can be lost and the darn thing keep flying) both probably were designed to the same level. I myself (background bias warning!!) would choose to be in the F-4 when the SAMs start flying. Better lookout, better maneuverability. Make it a G model with a -131 pod and my choice of EWO and I'd be pretty comfortable!
 

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A detail to remember regarding Soviet air defense, it would be entirely possible that at least some of their SAMs were nuke armed, or at least, were I a US war planner, assume a mix of nukes. That, as much as anything helped put B-52s in the weeds for strategic missions and helped kill the B-70. Neither altitude nor speed nor ECM could garentee penitration with the threat of nuclear SAMs. That would change a bit when the SRAM was introduced, intending to clear the way for penitrations.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Did the Soviet side of the fence have exchange pilots like is done in the West? East German flying Blinders as a result....

Just curious - Mark
 

Abraham Gubler

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During the Cold War the East German government provided a lot of military training support as a Soviet proxy to various third world countries, including Libya. Libya had over 5,000 German advisers during the late 70s, 1980s in exchange for oil. They did everything from provide professional teaching to run the internal secret service.

Because of the high level of integration between East Germany and the Soviet Union (the 16th Republic) I don't think its unlikely that East German Air Force personnel could be supporting the Libyan Tu-22 effort.

What I do think would be certain is that if in the 1980s the French armed forces shot down a Tu-22 and captured its 'German' pilot the French government would do as much as possible to hide and suppress such an event. The negative effect it would have on public opinion in relation to European integration in the early 1980s would be huge.
 

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Re: the French Hawk vs Tu-22



The Hawk battery attempted to engage a second Tu-22 which evaded; I'm not clear on whether a missile was fired in this engagement.

I think the rumour of the East German pilot may stem from the capture of two Yugoslav and one East German advisers during ground engagements.
 

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RP1 said:
Contributors may be interested in the following:

"Archie to SAM: A Short Operational History of Ground-Based Air Defense"

http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/aul/aupress/catalog/books/Werrell_B28.htm

Which contains information on SAM and AA performance in various stages of the Vietnam War.

And most importantly, is free.

RP1


Link broken when I tried it just now.


Jemiba said:
"..that a common misunderstanding, the SA-2 had to Hit the enemy plane"

That's were the Rapier got its nickname "hit-ile", contrary to "miss-ile", as it
really had to achieve a direct hit, unusual at its times ! ;)


AIM-4 Falcon. All versions (except ??? Swedish-manufactured late variants.) Of course the Rapier was required to do it against agile high-speed low-level targets rather than bombers which couldn't evade it without snapping their own wings off, which put it in a completely different class.


As for the B-52 being tough, Boeing did establish a pretty good reputation for building its bombers tough with the B-17. It's not surprising some of them took a lot of damage and still kept flying.
 

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According to Steve Zaloga's book, "Red SAM: The SA-2 Guideline Anti-Aircraft Missile," published by Osprey Pubs, Soviet PVO-Strany specialist in Hanoi estimated that it took one to two missiles per kill in Vietnam in 1965, but three to four missiles in 1966, due to the amount of ECM and other counter measures that the US was deploying at the time. However, due to the high level of false claims by the North Vietnamese at the time the figure was closer to 10 missiles per kill in 1965 and 25 missiles per kill in 1966.
The effectiveness of the missile has a lot to do with the crews and tactics that the crews were using, such as the length of time that the Fan Song radar would be transmitted (reducing its exposure to anti-radiation missiles), the elevation of the SAM site (SA-2's were vulnerable to low level attacks), etc.
 

sferrin

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Kiltonge said:
Re: the French Hawk vs Tu-22



The Hawk battery attempted to engage a second Tu-22 which evaded; I'm not clear on whether a missile was fired in this engagement.

I think the rumour of the East German pilot may stem from the capture of two Yugoslav and one East German advisers during ground engagements.


"Israeli HAWKs in the occupied Sinai destroyed 12 Egyptian planes (1 Il-28, 4 Su-7, 8 MiG-17, and 3 MiG-21) in 1969-1970. During the Yom Kippur War, 24 Arab planes were shot down (75 missiles fired). In 1982, a Syrian MiG-25 flying Mach 2.5 at 65,000’ was downed, the most impressive of HAWK victories.

Iranian HAWKs were heavily used in the Iran-Iraq War. More than 40 Iraqi planes were downed, including a Tu-22 “Blinder” shot down spectacularly over Tehran. HAWK spare parts were a big component of the Iran-Contra scandal. Conversely, an Iranian F-5 was downed by a Kuwaiti HAWK when it ventured into Kuwaiti airspace.

In 1987, a French battery stationed in Chad shot down a Libyan Tu-22 “Blinder” bomber.

In 1990, Kuwaiti HAWKs downed seven Iraqi jets (Mirage F1 and MiG-23 “Flogger“) and one Mi-8 “Hip” helicopter during the Iraqi conquest of that country."


At least one Hawk was able to damage a Mig-25 at altitude enough that a fighter was able to finish it off when it descended.

"On 31 August 1982, a third Syrian MiG-25 was damaged by an Israeli Hawk SAM and then destroyed by an F-15.[31]"
 

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sferrin said:
For the B-52 vs SA-2 check Vietnam. For the Nike Hercules and Hawk well, they were both able to knock down tactical ballistic missiles so I doubt a Bear would have presented much of a challenge. I suppose it would have come down to the effectiveness of their ECM and I haven't the faintest idea there.
Actually I would say that a well coordinated attack by Bears would do ok. You have to remember that the Herc was based on Ajax electronics and radars, dating to the early 1950s. They were of little use against low-level targets, easily jammable even considering the TRR and monopulse, and had a very low launch rate. Even a medium-range standoff missile like the Kitchen would let them blast their way in (as would the SRAM for the US). Although the Herc was able to hit some short-range missiles, they weren't launching sub-munitions and chaff. As you say, ECM would also be a major factor, but I to can't comment on their capabilities there. Interestingly, I found an image of a Kelt being used in the anti-Hawk role, so it was supposed to do this at least.
 

sferrin

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Maury Markowitz said:
sferrin said:
For the B-52 vs SA-2 check Vietnam. For the Nike Hercules and Hawk well, they were both able to knock down tactical ballistic missiles so I doubt a Bear would have presented much of a challenge. I suppose it would have come down to the effectiveness of their ECM and I haven't the faintest idea there.
Actually I would say that a well coordinated attack by Bears would do ok. You have to remember that the Herc was based on Ajax electronics and radars, dating to the early 1950s. They were of little use against low-level targets, easily jammable even considering the TRR and monopulse, and had a very low launch rate. Even a medium-range standoff missile like the Kitchen would let them blast their way in (as would the SRAM for the US). Although the Herc was able to hit some short-range missiles, they weren't launching sub-munitions and chaff. As you say, ECM would also be a major factor, but I to can't comment on their capabilities there. Interestingly, I found an image of a Kelt being used in the anti-Hawk role, so it was supposed to do this at least.

Going against the Bomarc / Nike Hercules / Air Defense Command IADS the US had at the time. . .well, I wouldn't have wanted to be a Bear pilot that's for sure.
 

phrenzy

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e author=Michel Van link=topic=6121.msg50339#msg50339 date=1233226348]
sferrin said:
Were any direct hits that exploded or were the "hits" near misses that didn't impact due to ECM?

that a common misunderstanding, the SA-2 had to Hit the enemy plane.
in fact the rocket had to get so close as possibly and explode
the scrappnel and shockwave make the rest, no wonder the B-52 is build so tuff

just like Nike Hercules
whoever the had also a nuclear version for Soviet bombers fleed...

in Vietnam the F-4 had ECM pod, who scramble the Radar of SA-2

on F-117 here wiki
One F-117 has been lost in combat, to the Yugoslav Army. On 27 March 1999, during the Kosovo War, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani[33], equipped with the Isayev S-125 'Neva' (NATO designation SA-3 'Goa') anti-aircraft missile system, downed a F-117A callsign "Vega 31," AF Serial Number 82-0806, with a Serbian improved Neva-M missile.[34][35] According to NATO Commander Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defences detected F-117s by operating their radars on unusually long wavelengths, making them visible to radar for brief periods.
[/quote]

I remember seeing an interview with an f-117 pilot on a discovery channel documentary where they talked about that, obviously before the real story was very public.
He said something along the lines of 50 calibre bullets don't pay any attention to stealth and if you fire off enough of them anyone could get lucky.
I'm sure he thought he had developed a very clever cover story...of course if that was true then it's a miracle they never lost one over Baghdad.
 

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phrenzy said:
e author=Michel Van link=topic=6121.msg50339#msg50339 date=1233226348]
He said something along the lines of 50 calibre bullets don't pay any attention to stealth and if you fire off enough of them anyone could get lucky.
I'm sure he thought he had developed a very clever cover story...of course if that was true then it's a miracle they never lost one over Baghdad.

50 cal won't reach 25,000 feet, which is precisely why the F-117 stayed above that, so I think the number require would be "infinite"

In spite of asking many people who I think would know, I cannot find a single example of a F-117 being tracked during Gulf 1.

As to Yugo, that also required C3I, which allowed the battery operators to know when the aircraft would be flying overhead. That's no slight on them, getting that information is no mean feat.
 

phrenzy

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I don't think he was implying a 50 hit the f-117 just making the point that stealth doesn't protect you from the Golden BB. Of course I'm pretty sure he knew old long wavelength radar did the job, I wish I could remember which show it was on and track down the clip as the twinkle in his eye is a little funny.
 

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Maury Markowitz said:
As to Yugo, that also required C3I, which allowed the battery operators to know when the aircraft would be flying overhead. That's no slight on them, getting that information is no mean feat.

Along with a bit of classic HUMINT, helped by some arguably bone headed flight planners.
 
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