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Vought ASM-135 ASAT aka ALMV (Air-Launched Miniature Vehicle)

flateric

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As a happy new owner of AMT/ERTL F-15 ASAT 'Satellite Killer' in 1/72 I will appreciate any photographic/graphic references of ASM-135 missile and its F-15 carriers. Thank you!
 

elmayerle

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It's just a shame that the AMT/Ertl kit only included markings for the first squadron proposed to use the ASAT operationally rather than for the "Celestial Eagle" trials aircraft.
 

flateric

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Evan, you are right...and seems that no aftermarket decals of Celestial Eagle are aviable.
 

sferrin

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http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/ASAT/F15ASAT.html
 

Lockon

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Okay, I want to make a 1/48 ASAT Missile to go on my F-15 but there seems to be very little in the way of drawings on the missile so if anyone can help me with this please post what you know or any books that I could get my hands on. :'( :'(

Lockon.
 

Barrington Bond

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Hasegawa did release a very limited edition of an F15 with a resin ASAT and ESCI released a 1/72 one which I have buried away somewhere. It would take time to dig out the instruction book for that to see if it is useful...

Regards,
Barry
 

flateric

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These are official Vought ASM-135 ASAT aka ALMV (Air-Launched Miniature Vehicle) desktop model pics courtesy Goshlik Krudbahr.
 

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flateric

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Hi-rez versions of these available at www.defenseimagery.mil
 

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Lockon

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Wow ;D

Hi Barrington Bond, I know about the Hasegawa kit........have been looking for one for a very long time and yep it is very "very limited edition.
But if you could find your Esci kit that would be great!.............I will take what I can get :) Thanks!

Hi flateric,

Thanks for the pics they will help and for the link to www.defenseimagery.mil its a great site! Thanks!

Find anything please post it. ;D
 

flateric

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ESCI kit instructions will be on the evening.
 

Lockon

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Hi flateric,

Any luck with finding your kit?

Lockon
 

flateric

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Wait a little.... BTW, ...
 

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flateric

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I didn't expect too much, too,,,
Try to write to authors of beautiful build-up review at http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/mod/jacksonf15.htm
Just look how far they went with their ASM-135...
 

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jeffryfontaine

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Barrington Bond said:
Hasegawa did release a very limited edition of an F15 with a resin ASAT and ESCI released a 1/72 one which I have buried away somewhere. It would take time to dig out the instruction book for that to see if it is useful...
Barry,

The Hasegawa 1/48th scale limited edition F-15A kit does not include a resin ASM-135 ASAT weapon. It was molded in plastic as a standard parts sprue. I currently have this kit in protective custody and the only limited part of it was the white metal and photo-etched parts for the landing gear and some additional details.
 

Lockon

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Thanks heaps for the upload of the drawing flateric ;D

Jeffry Fontaine so you have one of these kits!! :mad:.........................would you be so kind to post the instructions from the kit and some photos of the ASAT missile ;)

Lockon.
 

overscan

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Jeffry Fontaine said:
Sorry, but that is not possible at this time, I have no access to a scanner or a digital camera.
Blimey, you aren't Amish are you Jeffry?
 

rogerolim

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Hi Guys,

I need references about the f-15 with ASAT missile, specialy photos, but is hard to find something.

Someone can help?

Abracos

Rogerio
 

flateric

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http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/ASAT/F15ASAT.html
 

flateric

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Did ever tried to search?

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1723.0.html

Check also Flickr and other image sharing servers for museum photos - there are much, for example, http://flickr.com/search/?q=asat+missile&m=text

http://www.defenseimagery.mil/ has many hi-res photos of ASAT tests as well.
 

rogerolim

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flateric said:
Did ever tried to search?

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1723.0.html

Check also Flickr and other image sharing servers for museum photos - there are much, for example, http://flickr.com/search/?q=asat+missile&m=text

http://www.defenseimagery.mil/ has many hi-res photos of ASAT tests as well.
Thanks for the links, Flateric.

My focus is in the F-15, and I hope to find more references about it. The patch in the tail, for example, I don't find in anywhere :(
 
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jeffryfontaine

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Lockon said:
would you be so kind to post the instructions from the kit and some photos of the ASAT missile
Michael Benolkin has just posted a review of the 1/48th scale Haswgawa F-15A ''ADTAC'' kit which includes the ASM-135 ASAT Missile. Attached is the portion of the kit review image that contains the missile parts. I edited out the F-15 sections to provide just the ASAT portion of the sprue.
 

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De Guise

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HI all, my first post here, albeit a longtime lurker, so , be kind!
I've searched the site and there aren't threads on vought ASAT used as an ABM
My question is: is possible that the use as an ASAT was a cover-up foran ABM?
My line of reasoning is: Before MIRV, the defender had the advantage that
his defensive missiles were cheaper than the attacker's; past MIRV, the multiple
warhead denied this economic advantage. (and in fact, as I know, ABM treats prohibited
multiple interceptor ABM) But with an air launched ABM,
all change: you can leverage on the thousands of fighter planes you have to
launch interceptors. Instantly you have a defense cheaper than the offense,
and then, viable.
Vought ASAT technically is very similar with the KKV of the NMD...
It's just speculation...
and sorry for my english!
 

flateric

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If you will look for the average flight time for an ballistic missile from point A to point B you will see that such an ABM system is just will have no time to start to work - otherwise, you are going to have thousands of F-15 ASATs loitering around (even if we will dismiss problems with MIRV targeting/selection/kill problems)?
 

De Guise

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Hi, no I don't think it's impossible:
Between alarm by DSP satellites and strike by warhead there are 30-45 minutes.
If , in time of DEFCON 2, the USA mantains their fighters ready for take off with the ASAT,
they have time to take off and reach their targets, guided by NORAD x-band radars
Midcourse defence is a big window for action.
Plus, Time work with you because you can discriminate between real targets and decoys.
It's unplausible that all enemy warheads are destroyed, but a system like this would save surely 50-60% of the targets
especially in conjuction with patriot SAMs
I give you an hint: for me this cover up is repeating again, now , with the projects of an AIM-120 ASAT.
A single fighter can carry many AIM-120, all the airplanes are certified for launch of this missile, and with modern datalinks
every plane can make the work of the dedicated F-15 ASAT!
 

sferrin

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flateric said:
If you will look for the average flight time for an ballistic missile from point A to point B you will see that such an ABM system is just will have no time to start to work - otherwise, you are going to have thousands of F-15 ASATs loitering around (even if we will dismiss problems with MIRV targeting/selection/kill problems)?
Which is why Postol's latest genius plan is DOA to anybody who looks at it for more than 5 seconds.
 

TomS

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De Guise said:
Hi, no I don't think it's impossible:
Between alarm by DSP satellites and strike by warhead there are 30-45 minutes.
If , in time of DEFCON 2, the USA mantains their fighters ready for take off with the ASAT,
they have time to take off and reach their targets, guided by NORAD x-band radars
Midcourse defence is a big window for action.
Plus, Time work with you because you can discriminate between real targets and decoys.
It's unplausible that all enemy warheads are destroyed, but a system like this would save surely 50-60% of the targets
especially in conjuction with patriot SAMs
I give you an hint: for me this cover up is repeating again, now , with the projects of an AIM-120 ASAT.
A single fighter can carry many AIM-120, all the airplanes are certified for launch of this missile, and with modern datalinks
every plane can make the work of the dedicated F-15 ASAT!
The physics aren't in favor of this idea. ABM is not one-weapon fits all sort of situation. The speed of the target varies depending on its range (longer range missiles are faster), which in turn means that intereceptros need increased perfomance to deal with longer-rnage target missiles.

NCADE, the ABM AMRAAM development you reference, is designed to deal with high endo/low exo-atmospheric targets. That means it can engage medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBMs). Patriot PAC-3 is strictly endo-atmospheric and can handle only short-range ballistic missiles (SRBMs), and even those only in their terminal phase. An ICBM at midcourse is highly exo-atmospheric, putting it well outside the reach of NCADE. At the terminal phase, it would also be coming in far too fast for either NCADE or Patriot to deal with.
 

De Guise

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Right, NCADE maybe not, but the Vought ASAT in

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-135.html

has a maximum speed of 6,7 km/s like that of long range ICBM, so it isn't impossibile
an interception.
 

overscan

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Hi, welcome, etc.

I dunno though, maybe it was designed to, erm, shoot down satellites?

Whatever happened to Occam's Razor.... ::)
 

TomS

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Another point against the ASM-135 being intended for ABM use -- it required major modifications to the launch aircraft, including the provision of a fairly sizable helium dewar for cooling the seeker. It sounds like it replaced the cannon ammunition drum in the test aircraft, according to this article by one of the program team:

http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/ASAT/F15ASAT.html
 

blackstar

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De Guise said:
HI all, my first post here, albeit a longtime lurker, so , be kind!
I've searched the site and there aren't threads on vought ASAT used as an ABM
My question is: is possible that the use as an ASAT was a cover-up foran ABM?
No, it was clearly an ASAT weapon. There are declassified documents that tell the story of how it was developed and how it fit the overall American strategy. See, for instance:

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/388/1

"This resulted in the American development of an ASAT designed to be launched from an F-15 aircraft. The advantage of this approach was that the weapon could intercept a larger number of Soviet satellites in different orbits compared to a ground-launched weapon. At the time the United States also began another program, an “electronic ASAT” effort to try and take over or jam Soviet satellites. The very existence of this program was classified, but it does not appear to have progressed.

The development of the F-15 ASAT weapon proceeded relatively slowly until 1981, when the Reagan administration placed renewed emphasis on it. But the difficulty of the task became apparent during an early review, and the planned operational date for the weapon slipped from 1985 to 1987—ten years after its initial approval. The first test launch occurred in 1984. A full-up test took place in 1985. By this time, however, Congress intervened, concerned that the American ASAT would prompt the Soviet Union into improving their own ASAT capability.

In October 1986 President Reagan signed National Security Study Directive No. 4-86, which was classified “Secret.” The directive noted recent action by Congress to continue restrictions on ASAT testing. Reagan stated that although the weapon was “a good first step towards deterring the Soviet Union from using its ASAT capability, support for our program has eroded due to its relatively high cost and limited capability.” However, Reagan continued, “fortunately, we have the technology to do much better with newer systems, given more time to develop other approaches. Either way, the US ASAT program must be continued.” This directive was also declassified only last year.

While it is common for writers to claim that it was congressional concern about arms control that killed the F-15 ASAT, Reagan’s directive indicates that both the cost and the limited capabilities of the system were major concerns. If anything this was an understatement. Whereas the original cost estimate for the program had been $500 million. By 1985 it had risen to a whopping $5.3 billion, which included the cost of 48 F-15 aircraft and 112 interceptor missiles. In addition, the Air Force leadership had never been very enthusiastic about the weapon and Air Force generals certainly felt that they had better uses for two squadrons of F-15s. By the late 1980s the F-15 ASAT was dead and a new effort was resurrected in its place."
 

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De Guise said:
My question is: is possible that the use as an ASAT was a cover-up foran ABM?
Actually, your question is not as stupid as it sounds; since there apparently was considerable cross-over between ABM/ASAT.

I've been trying to dig up more information various early hit to kill technology -- Vought was a leader, apparently developing it through the Homing Intercept Technology (HIT) programme in the middle 1970s, which was apparently intended to MIRV the Spartan ABM; and once MIRVed ABMs were outlawed by the ABM treaty, the technology floated around trying to find a new application.
 

sferrin

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(Forgive the music.)
 
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KJ_Lesnick

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RyanCrierie said:
Actually, your question is not as stupid as it sounds; since there apparently was considerable cross-over between ABM/ASAT.

I've been trying to dig up more information various early hit to kill technology -- Vought was a leader, apparently developing it through the Homing Intercept Technology (HIT) programme in the middle 1970s, which was apparently intended to MIRV the Spartan ABM
Yeah, I heard about the possibility of a type of multi-warhead Spartan design.


once MIRVed ABMs were outlawed by the ABM treaty
Why were multi-warhead ABM's outlawed?


technology floated around trying to find a new application.
So basically an ABM seeker ended up being developed for an ASAT system?
 

flateric

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21 Jan 1984 at Edwards - The first launch of an ASAT missile from an F-15 took place over the Pacific Ocean. The anti-satellite missile was launched at a specified point in space; no actual target was involved. (Undated Edwards History Office file photo of F-15 with ASAT)
 

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The missiles that were all white were inert. The live round had a dull metal finish on the front have, white booster segment and brown bands.
 

sferrin

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See post #34 on this page. ;)
 
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