UTX/UCX proposals

nugo

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Have been:

1) Beech Model PD-?/Model ? (derivative of Morane-Soulnier MS.760 Paris)---UTX
2) Cessna Model ?---UTX
3) Convair Model ?---?
4) Fairchild Model 185---UCX
5) Lockheed Model CL-329---C-140/UCX
6) McDonnell Model 119---UCX
7) North American Model 246---T-39/UTX
8) Northrop Model 16? or 17?---?
9) Temco Model ??---?
10) Canadair Model CL-53---UTX

and should been...

1) Boeing Model 7??
2) Bellanca Model ?
3) Douglas Model 13?? or 18??
4) Grumman Design 1??
5) Martin Model ???
6) Republic Model AP-??
7) Ryan Model ??
8) Piper Model ?
9) Helio Model ?
10) DHC Model ?
11) Aero Design and Engineering Company Model ?
and ...
and your comment of those information and who will be able to add information, please add.
 

Jemiba

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What I've found so far gives no Beech Model number for the Paris, the sales brochure for
the civil version just calls it "MS.760 Paris", too. The Paris seems to have been offered "from
the shelf", in the end leading to its early failure in the contest, as in the attempt to succeed
on the civil market in the US.
But thanks for reminding me to this, could lead me to a colour profile of the MS.760 Paris in
USAF colours ! ;)
 

Jemiba

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Good idea, plausible story and very well visualised ! ;)
 

nugo

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Boeing Model 729---proposals of UTX or UCX, or proposal of UTX and UCX (my opinion)
 

Jos Heyman

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Stargazer2006 said:
Jemiba said:
could lead me to a colour profile of the MS.760 Paris in
USAF colours ! ;)

You can have a look at this for inspiration... ;-)

http://aviadesign.online.fr/images/beech-fledgling.jpg

Intrigueing. Is this a real aircraft or a mock-up and, if it is real, does anybody know the civil registration.

It reminds me of the Cessna 407 mock-up (a derivative of the T-37) that carried fake serial 60407. May be that design was also submitted for the UTX/UCX competition?
 

Stargazer2006

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Jos, this is a what-if, a faked picture!

I have made it a specialty of mine on another forum, creating about 150 imaginary aircraft and/or variants over the past couple of years.

Original photograph was this (see attached).

Sorry about the confusion!
 

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Jos Heyman

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Shame on you for confusing me so early in the morning ;)

At least the attached picture of the Cessna 407 was a real mock-up. Picture was provided to me by Cessna, sometime in the 1960s.
 

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A pair of North American Aviation factory models. The front one dates back to around January, 1952, when NAA first studied this aircraft on its own, using GE J85 turbojets (there was also a turboprop version). I believe this early variant was not pressurized, which might explain how they got away with that flat, one-piece automobile-style windshield.

The design was then shelved for 4 years and resurrected for the UTX/UCX competition in March, 1956 (rear model), which incorporates many aerodynamic refinements and the Sabreliner name. The stand describes it as a utility trainer, so it's easy to date it from around mid-1956 as an early UTX proposal.

The engine placement was not shifted to the rear until July 1, 1957 (Model NA-246), when triangular windows were also introduced, giving the Sabreliner its "mini-Caravelle" appearance. Sud-Aviation did file a complaint -- not sure what happened.
 

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Here's a 1959 NAA promotional illustration of the final Sabreliner configuration, still wearing the same general paint scheme as the above models. The car is a 1959 Ford Fairlane Station Wagon. Shouldn't every middle class family have a Sabreliner?
 

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Another illustration by NAA, depicting the proposed NA-246 in military UTX duty. I believe the NA-246 wing was either identical or very similar to the F-86 wing, hence the Sabreliner name. Can someone confirm this?
 

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hesham

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Also from Flightglobal and this site;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4184.0/highlight,sabreline.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1957/1957%20-%200937.html
 

Jos Heyman

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From the article in Flight I conclude that the Cessna 407 was one of the UTX/UCX proposals.
 

nugo

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Hi All!

From Aviation Week,1956,Vol.64, No.13, 26 March, page 23 (INDUSTRY OBSERVER):

"Fifteen companies have submitted designs in response to USAF's request for a multi-jet combination transport and combat proficiency trainer. All call for four engines except Convair's, which calls for two. All are designed around either the General Electric Co.'s 2,000-lb. thrust J85, originally designated MX2273 and planned for use in drones and pilotless aircraft, or the Fairchild J83, also a 2,000-lb. thrust turbojet, probably a single-spool axial flow compressor."

It is a competition of UTX.
 

nugo

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And:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1957/1957%20-%200938.html

"Northrop, Temco and McDonnell are also reported to be interested in the executive jet market. The McDonnell project Model 246 has undergone wind tunnel tests,..."

My opinion---"The North American project Model 246 has undergone wind tunnel tests,..."
(McDonnell---mistake or ?)
 

Stargazer2006

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nugo said:
And:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1957/1957%20-%200938.html

"Northrop, Temco and McDonnell are also reported to be interested in the executive jet market. The McDonnell project Model 246 has undergone wind tunnel tests,..."

My opinion---"The North American project Model 246 has undergone wind tunnel tests,..."
(McDonnell---mistake or ?)

A mistake, quite clearly. McDonnell's Model 246 is not documented, but it was a 1970-71 design. The company's actual UTX/UCX contender was the Model 119, which lost and was briefly (and unsuccessfully) marketed as the Model 220.
 

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Another view of the UTX proposal model from North American Aviation.
 

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  • NAA UTX Sabreliner.jpg
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unclejim

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So the Sabreliner went from looking like a mini-Tu-104 to looking like a mini-Caravelle. Like this look better, though the cabin noise would have been painful.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

A recent donation to the Museum included a mint copy of a "McDonnell 119A USAF-UCX Familiarization Manual". The attached drawings are out of the manual.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Stargazer2006

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:eek: WOW!!! This is fantastic. ;D

Now I wish we could see the Model 118 UTX trainer counterpart...

Thanks a lot for sharing!!
 

Stargazer2006

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I have used your excellent document to create a cleaned up three-view arrangement. Hope this will be of some interest to some people!
 

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Mark Nankivil

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I concur - well done Stargazer and thanks!

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

Courtesy of the Fred Roos Collection, some very nice color photos of the McDonnell Model 119/220, probably at the time to the clean up and change in designation to the Model 220 for attempted sales to the civilian market. I think it is a rather sharp looking aircraft when viewed in its time frame....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Sundog

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Wow, great pics! It's nice to see it in nice color photos when it was new, as opposed to all of the photos of it in recent years. I had to smile at the phone in the back on the console. I can't remember the last time I used a phone like that.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Yeah, when I win the lottery (!) one of the first things to do is buy it and bring back here to St. Louis and restore it for display at our Museum. It belongs here....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

A donation of drawings this past weekend netted this excellent three view with details of the Model 119C proposal.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

A couple of photos of the Model 119 UCX display model in the Boeing Prologue Room here in St. Louis.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Wow. That one has been on my wish list for over a decade, and I didn't even know it existed. I need to bribe somebody at Boeing.

Mark, is the stand interesting? Did you take a photo of it? Many thanks for these pictures!
 

Mark Nankivil

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Hi Ryan -

Not sure on the stand - it was on an upper shelf and I was focused on getting the model. They're closed now until Spring but the curator agreed to allow us to come in next spring and photograph specific models off the shelves and out of the display cases. Stay tuned and patient...

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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I've always been a fan of the 119. I'm also a fan of the Douglas B-66 and the 119 makes me think of a design based on the B-66. Before the internet and all the info available, what info I had seen decades ago and not realizing it was a McD-only design, I thought it WAS some sort of direct relative to the B-66! Anyway, I recently got a 1/72 Philippine mahogony display model off eBay that I plan to paint in USAF markings. Thanks for all the posts on it.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

Even though it was built, I've not seen really good drawings for the JetStar until we had a manual donated to the Museum a few weeks ago. I'm posting them so that there's a direct comparison to the Model 119/220.

Rather ironic that when supporting the 119/220 as Mr. McDonnell's business jet became cost prohibitive, he bought a JetStar.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Close-up view of the January, 1952 pre-UTX study by North American Aviation, which eventually became the Sabreliner. This is the earliest variant that I am aware of. It was to be powered by GE J85 turbojets, and a turboprop version was also planned.
 

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CJGibson

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Handley Page proposed their laminar flow HP.113 for UCX. As described in Vulcan's Hammer.

Chris
 

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Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

A couple of photos of the Model 119 I recently picked up on EPay. The in flight shot with the F3H-2 Demon is interesting - gives a sense of size in comparison to the Demon.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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hesham

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nugo said:
Have been:

1) Beech Model PD-?/Model ? (derivative of Morane-Soulnier MS.760 Paris)---UTX
2) Cessna Model ?---UTX
3) Convair Model ?---?
4) Fairchild Model 185---UCX
5) Lockheed Model CL-329---C-140/UCX
6) McDonnell Model 119---UCX
7) North American Model 246---T-39/UTX
8) Northrop Model 16? or 17?---?
9) Temco Model ??---?
10) Canadair Model CL-53---UTX

and should been...

1) Boeing Model 7??
2) Bellanca Model ?
3) Douglas Model 13?? or 18??
4) Grumman Design 1??
5) Martin Model ???
6) Republic Model AP-??
7) Ryan Model ??
8) Piper Model ?
9) Helio Model ?
10) DHC Model ?
11) Aero Design and Engineering Company Model ?
and ...
and your comment of those information and who will be able to add information, please add.

Now we can say,

the Republic entry was AP-90.
 

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Manufacturer's proposal model of Republic UCX transport. Note stacked pairs of mid-wing jet engines.
 

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hesham

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Oh my God,you made my day Circle-5,


thank you very much.
 
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