USS United States (CVA-58)

[Triton]

Artist's impression of USS United States (CVA-58)

From Naval Historical Center:

Artist's conception by Bruno Figallo, October 1948, showing the ship's approximate planned configuration as of that time. Many details, among them the location of smoke stacks, elevators and the retractable bridge, were then still not finally decided.

Source:
http://www.navsource.org

 

[Triton]

Preliminary design model undergoing sea-keeping tests at the David Taylor Model Basin, Carderock, Maryland, circa 1947.

Source:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-u/cva58.htm

 

[Triton]

Profile view of Essex-class aircraft carrier and CVA-58.

A truly flat-topped flattop, supercarrier CVA-58 will have a flush deck a fifth of a mile long.

Dorsal view of Essex-class aircraft carrier and CVA-58.

The Navy's speedy new floating airdrome will more than double the size of carrier airfields.

Artist's impression of CVA-58's telescoping bridges.

Telescoping bridges for captain, admiral, and air officers will come up alongside the flight deck.

Artist's impression of CVA-58's escalator.

Escalators will carry pilots and crewmen to their planes on CVA-58's expansive runways.

Artist's impression of CVA-58's stern elevator.

Huge stern elevator will bring up planes for launching. Four others are place outboard.

Artist's impression of observation blister.

Gunnery and navigation bridges will be blisters at the forward corners of the flight deck.

Gustafson, Phil. "Why the Navy Wants Supercarriers". Popular Science January 1949 pp. 116-19.

 

[blackstar]

Thanks for those. A few thoughts:

-The telescoping bridge was undoubtedly a bad idea and it is easy to see why they abandoned it for later carriers. Expecting that thing to work right and not jam up in a high humidity salt air environment is crazy. Considering that the Essex carriers had lots of problems with their elevators jamming in the folded position, it's clear that carriers need to avoid any unnecessary large moving parts.

-The escalator is not completely crazy. Many carriers incorporated them, but internally, for bringing pilots to the flight deck (making them climb stairs with their gear on was not a good idea). But exterior escalators would not work. The Washington DC Metro has a lot of exterior escalators and they break down constantly because of rain and debris. They are gradually being covered.

 

[Graham1973]

I've also been very interested in that ship, partly for a reversion to the HMS Argus style of flat-top, but also from the point of view of doctrine, given the lack of space to fit radars.

How did the USN plan to protect the carrier from air attack and provide the means to control her air groups, were there contemporary plans for 'air direction/communication' ships?

 

[blackstar]

I checked Friedman's US Cruisers book. He had a paragraph on the Hawaii conversion. The proposed conversion was changing, but the plan was to remove the 12-inch turrets but retain some of the secondary weapons. One design included a hangar for two helicopters. But rising costs meant that the program got delayed and eventually the rising costs of other projects led the Hawaii conversion to be canceled.

 

[Sea Skimmer]

The USN planned to operate the United State class as part of a future fleet with four task groups, each with one United States, one Midway and two Essex. Since only three Midways existed I assume the forth group would have had three Essex. In that context austere radar and command facilities on one hull that has the primary purpose of operating long range nuclear bombs doesn't seem like such a big a deal, and the command cruisers would have served as task force flagships. Work resumed on USS Northampton as CLC-1 in July 1948, the same month United States was laid down, and she was intended to have served as carrier group flagship, though ended up in a strategic command role.


The conversion for Hawaii was considered in 1951 by which time United State was a dead duck; it was more of a replacement for the wartime command ships which controlled entire fleets I think, and the strategic nuclear command role. The early 1950s is when the US started building strategic bunkers like Site R too.

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a related note, here's an 1998 research report on the 'Revolt of the Admirals': http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/acsc/98-166.pdf
(h/t West Texican over at MilitaryPhotos.net.)

 

[Delta Force]

I searched for all the threads on the USS United States, and this was the only one that came up, so I think this is the place to ask this.

The models clearly depict numerous Vought F7U Cutlass fighters on the deck, so presumably they would have made up at least part of the air group. I'm wondering what type of bombers would have been stationed on the United States, and if the air group would have had any other kinds of aircraft besides the fighters and bombers.

 

[Moose]

I searched for all the threads on the USS United States, and this was the only one that came up, so I think this is the place to ask this.

The models clearly depict numerous Vought F7U Cutlass fighters on the deck, so presumably they would have made up at least part of the air group. I'm wondering what type of bombers would have been stationed on the United States, and if the air group would have had any other kinds of aircraft besides the fighters and bombers.

It was just going to be fighters and bombers, and even the fighters had to fight to get on board. United States was designed at the height of the nuclear war fetishism that all the services swam in during the postwar period, when nukes got money so everything the services wanted to buy had to have nukes, its purpose was pretty much solely to carry big nuclear bombers. Fighters were "allowed" on as escorts, but there were no plans for a multirole air wing. The bombers were big 100,000-lb jets which never got to the point of getting names as far as I know, the Navy did get the AJ Savage as an interim aircraft.

 

[Arjen]

I searched for all the threads on the USS United States, and this was the only one that came up, so I think this is the place to ask this.

The models clearly depict numerous Vought F7U Cutlass fighters on the deck, so presumably they would have made up at least part of the air group. I'm wondering what type of bombers would have been stationed on the United States, and if the air group would have had any other kinds of aircraft besides the fighters and bombers.

To anyone interested in what kind of bombers were planned for the USS United States, I can recommend Jared Zichek's "Secret Aerospace Projects of the U.S. Navy: The Incredible Attack Aircraft of the USS United States, 1948-1949"

 

[Delta Force]

To anyone interested in what kind of bombers were planned for the USS United States, I can recommend Jared Zichek's "Secret Aerospace Projects of the U.S. Navy: The Incredible Attack Aircraft of the USS United States, 1948-1949"

What's that on the cover? It looks like a Douglas X-3 Stiletto with some kind of parasite aircraft attached to it.

 

[Arjen]

Usually the parasite is smaller than its host . The cover shows the Douglas model 1186-C: a 2-seat X-3 derivative on top of an expendable missile.
Jared has his own website:
http://retromechanix.com/douglas-model-1186c-lrsa-resin-kit-sharkit/
<edit> ... and another one: http://jaredzichek.com/

 

[Delta Force]

That would have been difficult to handle on an aircraft carrier.

 

[TomS]

It was just going to be fighters and bombers, and even the fighters had to fight to get on board. United States was designed at the height of the nuclear war fetishism that all the services swam in during the postwar period, when nukes got money so everything the services wanted to buy had to have nukes, its purpose was pretty much solely to carry big nuclear bombers. Fighters were "allowed" on as escorts, but there were no plans for a multirole air wing. The bombers were big 100,000-lb jets which never got to the point of getting names as far as I know, the Navy did get the AJ Savage as an interim aircraft.

Ed Heinemann correctly guessed that United States was unlikely to be built and decided to design a bomber that got as close as possible to the 100,000-lb bomber requirement but could still operate from more conventional carriers. The result was the A3D Skywarrior. Even if USS United States had been built, I'd guess that its actually airwing would have had A3Ds and fighters plus a couple of plane guard/rescue helos.

 

[Arjen]

I picked up my copy of Heinemann's autobiography, 'Combat Aircraft Designer', co-written with Rosario Rausa.

When Heinemann first presented the A3D's design to the US Navy, one officer actually accused him of deliberately, knowingly presenting an unrealistic design to win the order. Distrust shared by Air Force General Vandenberg who wanted Douglas 'to get that engineer the hell out of town'. Nevertheless, the design documents were kept for evaluation by BuAer - accepted as a valid concept - the rest is history.

Pages 201-203 of the 1980 Jane's edition.

 

[Moose]

Ed Heinemann correctly guessed that United States was unlikely to be built and decided to design a bomber that got as close as possible to the 100,000-lb bomber requirement but could still operate from more conventional carriers. The result was the A3D Skywarrior. Even if USS United States had been built, I'd guess that its actually airwing would have had A3Ds and fighters plus a couple of plane guard/rescue helos.

Sure, though that can quickly lead to a chicken-and-egg debate over whether the United States making it to see would have meant the Navy sticking to the 100,000-lb goal, or if picking the design that became the Whale would have lead to the United States being converted during construction to a more conventional design.

 

[TomS]

The A3D actually competed against a 100,000-lb design from Curtis and won.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,570.msg37733.html#msg37733

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Jared A. Zichek's book "Secret Aerospace Projects of the U.S. Navy: The Incredible Attack Aircraft of the USS United States, 1948-1949" covers the early story of the Douglas Skywarrior and the OS111 requirement. In short Douglas El Segundo (Ed Heinemann's division) offered a requirement compliant bomber (with tail gun), one without tail gun and reduced size 40,000 lbs bomber only able to carry 4,000 lbs of bombs (compared to 10,000 lbs required by OS111). Douglas Santa Monica also offered design submissions but they, like most other companies, needed 100,000-120,000 lbs for their OS113 compliant bomber whereas Heinemann's bomber only needed 87,500 lbs.


But the Ed Heinemann Model 593 designs (except the 40,000 lbs 595-2) were not designed to fly from Midway or Essex class carriers. They were exclusively CVA-58 deck compatible even though they offered a bomber 12% under the OS111 acceptable launch weight. Heinemann's 40,000 lbs 593-2 could fly from the smaller carriers and this was their recommended design but it was not contracted by the USN. The only reason the production Skywarrior could fly from the Midway and Essex ships was advances in flight deck design, launch and recovery gear (angled decks, steam catapults, etc) that came after the OS111 competition.


Heinemann won OS111 by the same means he won the contract for the Skyraider and Skyhawk. Build the lightest and therefore cheapest possible solution for the USN's needs. That he delivered on those weight claims with reliable and capable aircraft is why he is rightly judged an aviation legend.

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20279
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/cv/cva-58/UnitedStates-700-brm/brm-review.html

 

[GTX]

http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20279

ModelWarships reveiw

Good luck trying to find copies of that kit

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20279
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/cv/cva-58/UnitedStates-700-brm/brm-review.html

Good luck trying to find copies of that kit

Very heavy demand, I take it?

 

[GTX]

Out of production as far as I understand.

 

[TomS]

Out of production as far as I understand.

Likely, though Blue Ridge Models does still list as "current" on their website. They might be convinced to run another batch sometime.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Out of production as far as I understand.

Likely, though Blue Ridge Models does still list as "current" on their website. They might be convinced to run another batch sometime.

Drats, I was thinking of getting one. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[F.L.]

 

[F.L.]

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Some early preliminary designs.

Original CVB-X design courtesy of @that_person (thanks for uploading the post-1945 Spring Styles designs):



Studies No 1-5, 1947:

 

[Scott Kenny]

I searched for all the threads on the USS United States, and this was the only one that came up, so I think this is the place to ask this.

The models clearly depict numerous Vought F7U Cutlass fighters on the deck, so presumably they would have made up at least part of the air group. I'm wondering what type of bombers would have been stationed on the United States, and if the air group would have had any other kinds of aircraft besides the fighters and bombers.

AJ Savages, P2V Neptunes, A3D Skywarriors/Whales.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

AJ Savages, P2V Neptunes, A3D Skywarriors/Whales.

If CVA-58 is still a going concern, then it's possible one of the larger 100,000lb AUW designs proposed for OS 111 could be a viable option.

 

[nova10]

I'm surprised the USS United States was planned without an enclosed "hurricane" bow.

 

[that_person]

Some early preliminary designs.

Original CVB-X design:

View attachment 706041

Studies No 1-5, 1947:

View attachment 706044
View attachment 706045
View attachment 706046
View attachment 706047
View attachment 706048

Aren’t those my images?

 

[Scott Kenny]

If CVA-58 is still a going concern, then it's possible one of the larger 100,000lb AUW designs proposed for OS 111 could be a viable option.

The AJ Savage competed against the 100klb AUW designs, and won.

 

[BlackBat242]

Aren’t those my images?

No, they are the US Government's images, and therefore public property for anyone to use.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Aren’t those my images?

The first CVB-X is, the others are slightly higher resolution images from Wikipedia Commons (and were uploaded there in 2016). I thought that this thread could do with these plans.

The AJ Savage competed against the 100klb AUW designs, and won.

The 100,000lb AUW designs were for OS111, i.e. A3D Skywarrior competitors.

 

[Yellow Palace]

The first CVB-X is, the others are slightly higher resolution images from Wikipedia Commons.


The 100,000lb AUW designs were for OS111, i.e. A-3D Skywarrior competitors.

Specifically, the A3D that entered service was a slimmed-down version of Douglas's winning OS-111 bid to operate from the smaller ships that remained after CVA-58 was cancelled.

The original design was about 22,000 lb heavier and had a 10 ft larger wingspan, with a commensurately longer range.

 

[acelanceloet]

Has a plan for the design as laid down ever made it to the public? The internal sideview in Friedman's US aircraft carriers match none of these 5 studies, nor does the cross section a few pages later, so I am wondering what was the source for those.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Has a plan for the design as laid down ever made it to the public? The internal sideview in Friedman's US aircraft carriers match none of these 5 studies, nor does the cross section a few pages later, so I am wondering what was the source for those.

I was actually going to ask a question along these lines, as the sketch designs posted above all date from 1947, with CVA-58 being laid down in April 1949, so considerable changes could have been made between those two dates.

Jared Zichek's Secret Aerospace Projects of the US Navy: The incredible Attack Aircraft of the USS United States 1948-1949 has a plan view of a flight deck and hangar from August 1948, that was sent to various aircraft manufacturers to aid them in the design of their aircraft to meet OS111 and OS115.

Interestingly this design is unlike the 1947 sketches, as it has no wing catapults cantilevered to port and starboard, instead having a total of three catapults, two in their usual bow positions, and a third behind them running along the centerline of the ship. It also does not have the large ramp on the portside between hangar deck and flight deck, this being replaced by an elevator.

I was wondering if this was an actual design of the flight-deck and hangar circa 1948, or a notional design purely intended to help the aircraft designers to ensure that they designed aircraft that could actually use the aircraft lifts etc?

 

[acelanceloet]

I was actually going to ask a question along these lines, as the sketch designs posted above all date from 1947, with CVA-58 being laid down in April 1949, so considerable changes could have been made between those two dates.

Jared Zichek's Secret Aerospace Projects of the US Navy: The incredible Attack Aircraft of the USS United States 1948-1949 has a plan view of a flight deck and hangar from August 1948, that was sent to various aircraft manufacturers to aid them in the design of their aircraft to meet OS111 and OS115.

Interestingly this design is unlike the 1947 sketches, as it has no wing catapults cantilevered to port and starboard, instead having a total of three catapults, two in their usual bow positions, and a third behind them running along the centerline of the ship. It also does not have the large ramp on the portside between hangar deck and flight deck, this being replaced by an elevator.

I was wondering if this was an actual design of the flight-deck and hangar circa 1948, or a notional design purely intended to help the aircraft designers to ensure that they designed aircraft that could actually use the aircraft lifts etc?

I do not have that book so I cannot compare, but that does sound a bit like the towing tank model posted above, dated 1947. The one official image released of CVA-58 is, according to Friedman, this https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/g706108-jpg.113948/

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

I do not have that book so I cannot compare, but that does sound a bit like the towing tank model posted above, dated 1947. The one official image released of CVA-58 is, according to Friedman, this https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/g706108-jpg.113948/

Somewhat, although the port elevator is slightly behind the first starboard elevator.

Sources for the earlier sketch designs:

Study No 1: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/12007708

Study No 2: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/12007709

Study No 3: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/12007710

Study No 4:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/12007711

Study No 5:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/12007719