USAF/US NAVY 6G Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

The NGAD is being designed to to replace the F-22 not the F-35 Elysium. Though I think that the F-35 will be ultimately be replaced with a sixth generation fighter at some point in the future, or even a 6.5 generation fighter depending on when the Air Force will want to replace the F-35.
 
Elysium said:
Is there a chance that the USAF (not Navy) NGAD might simply not materialize? What would be its niche that the F-35 and B-21 (both likely be relevant for half a century) can't fill?
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Air dominance, F-35 is not able to fly mach 2 or supercruise for interception at high speed and altitude , face of SU-57 or J-20 there is a need for a high performance fighter, if your not able to pursuit and intercept this type you lose the dominance of the sky
 
dark sidius said:
Air dominance, F-35 is not able to fly mach 2 or supercruise for interception at high speed and altitude , face of SU-57 or J-20 there is a need for a high performance fighter, if your not able to pursuit and intercept this type you lose the dominance of the sky
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The J-20 will face the Navy NGAD above the Pacfic. As for the USAF, I don't think you need dedicated interceptors when you have powerful AWACS and B-21s that can lob scores of super long range AIM-260s at the enemy. Having a supercruise capable fighter might simply be not worth the trouble for the USAF.
 
Elysium said:
The J-20 will face the Navy NGAD above the Pacfic. As for the USAF, I don't think you need dedicated interceptors when you have powerful AWACS and B-21s that can lob scores of super long range AIM-260s at the enemy. Having a supercruise capable fighter might simply be not worth the trouble for the USAF.
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The current planned production run for the B-21 is at 100. Even if you bump that number up considerably there's not going to be enough of them, especially in theatre, where a commander is going to use his best penetrating bomber for a counter air role. The B-21 is far to premium of an asset and going to be too busy hitting priority targets to be tasked with anti air duties.
 
Shoes31 said:
The current planned production run for the B-21 is at 100. Even if you bump that number up considerably there's not going to be enough of them, especially in theatre, where a commander is going to use his best penetrating bomber for a counter air role. The B-21 is far to premium of an asset and going to be too busy hitting priority targets to be tasked with anti air duties.
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That can't be right, especially since they plan to export it (Austrialians are customers I think). Anyways, I think they will make way more of those.
 
Elysium said:
The J-20 will face the Navy NGAD above the Pacfic. As for the USAF, I don't think you need dedicated interceptors when you have powerful AWACS and B-21s that can lob scores of super long range AIM-260s at the enemy. Having a supercruise capable fighter might simply be not worth the trouble for the USAF.
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The B-21 will not be used for A2A. That is not at all what it was built for.

An argument might be made that CCA will make NGAD perhaps less useful, but that would be a huge bet to make on AI this far out.
 
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Elysium said:
Is there a chance that the USAF (not Navy) NGAD might simply not materialize?
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Highly unlikely.

The US has F15Cs and F22s to replace, and F15Cs are literally falling apart.



Elysium said:
What would be its niche that the F-35 and B-21 (both likely be relevant for half a century) can't fill?
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Pure air dominance at long range. I'm expecting a combat range in excess of 2000nmi, basically twice the range of an F22 or F15.

The F35 is built as a striker. 2x 2000lb bombs and 2x AMRAAMs.
The B21 is built as a long range medium capacity bomber (~24-30klbs, maybe more).

You don't ask either F35 or B21 to go hunting other aircraft.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Highly unlikely.

The US has F15Cs and F22s to replace, and F15Cs are literally falling apart.




Pure air dominance at long range. I'm expecting a combat range in excess of 2000nmi, basically twice the range of an F22 or F15.

The F35 is built as a striker. 2x 2000lb bombs and 2x AMRAAMs.
The B21 is built as a long range medium capacity bomber (~24-30klbs, maybe more).

You don't ask either F35 or B21 to go hunting other aircraft.
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Not sure, I don't think the NGAD will be an F-15 replacement. Originally the F-22 was supposed to do that, but it was cancelled due to it being more expensive both to procure and operate, leading to an airforce that's less effective dollar-for-dollar than the one that came before it, in cases where the high-end capabilities of the F-22 are not utilized.

Going with an aircraft that's even more expensive than the F-22 would be going in the wrong direction.
The greatly increased range thing also sounds dubious, extra fuel is just pure performance/weight penalty, considering we're entering the range where stealth tanker drones are a thing, it makes less and less sense every day, especially since the Navy NGAD will occupy the long-range niche.

If I would imagine an F-15 replacement, I would think along the lines of the Turkish 5th gen jet - take the F-22 concept, apply major cost savings, and add more range/payload. But I don't think the USAF is going to do that, I think they're thinking in a novel force structure, which might prove itself in practice or not.

From what I gather the NGAD will be, is decidedly not an F-15 replacement, but a blank-cheque aircraft, procured in small numbers, that will demonstrate US technological supremacy and be able to outclass every existing 5th gen aircraft by a healthy margin and give headaches to enemy military planners.
 
Sundog said:
Sadly, the same can be said for Lockheed as well. I mean, how many years is it going to be until we have an F-35 that is fully capable of what has been promised? I don't hold them completely accountable on that, though, as the USAF shares a lot of the blame.
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From the time the X-35 flew until now is longer than the entire production run of the F-4 Phantom from first flight in 1958 until number 5195 rolled off the Japanese line in 1981.

That's an embarrassingly long time to still be “working on it“.
 
Elysium said:
If I would imagine an F-15 replacement, I would think along the lines of the Turkish 5th gen jet - take the F-22 concept, apply major cost savings, and add more range/payload.
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This is slightly off-topic, but Kaan is far from a simply cheaper F-22, in fact it'll come with a 100M price tag per plane and everyone expects it's operating costs to be similar. And if we don't use the good ol' eyeballing techique, we don't know what level of RCS reduction it'll have, my personal expectation is it'll be similar to J-20A (the one with the hump and WS-15) which in my book is also VLO even if it's not exactly close to F-35's level.

They also plan to equip the plane with a huge ass radar and also side arrays, that alone is a major contributing factor to the cost. And this is just the radar, I'm not even talking about other sensors and avionics just so that I can keep this text short.

Kaan is, (to a fault) the materialisation of combining the "Western school of thought™"'s approach to Low Observability with Russian philosophy of simply dumping every sensor in your possession on the aircraft. It'll even have a DIRCM like the Felon.
 
snne said:
This is slightly off-topic, but Kaan is far from a simply cheaper F-22, in fact it'll come with a 100M price tag per plane and everyone expects it's operating costs to be similar. And if we don't use the good ol' eyeballing techique, we don't know what level of RCS reduction it'll have, my personal expectation is it'll be similar to J-20A (the one with the hump and WS-15) which in my book is also VLO even if it's not exactly close to F-35's level.

They also plan to equip the plane with a huge ass radar and also side arrays, that alone is a major contributing factor to the cost. And this is just the radar, I'm not even talking about other sensors and avionics just so that I can keep this text short.

Kaan is, (to a fault) the materialisation of combining the "Western school of thought™"'s approach to Low Observability with Russian philosophy of simply dumping every sensor in your possession on the aircraft. It'll even have a DIRCM like the Felon.
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Well, 100M is roughly in the ballpark of the 90M the USAF is paying for its F15EX planes, and still a far cry from the 200M each F-22 supposedly cost (though estimates vary)
 
Scott Kenny said:
Highly unlikely.

The US has F15Cs and F22s to replace, and F15Cs are literally falling apart.




Pure air dominance at long range. I'm expecting a combat range in excess of 2000nmi, basically twice the range of an F22 or F15.

The F35 is built as a striker. 2x 2000lb bombs and 2x AMRAAMs.
The B21 is built as a long range medium capacity bomber (~24-30klbs, maybe more).

You don't ask either F35 or B21 to go hunting other aircraft.
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And it si not sure that the B-21 have AA capacity
 
snne said:
AFAIA some C and Ds have been mothballed for a while and lately even Es are starting to suffer the same fate, right?
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Cs still fly in ANG. I think the last fully active squadron was at Kadena and stood down last year.
 
dark sidius said:

USAF Picks Anduril, General Atomics To Continue CCA Development | Aviation Week Network

Anduril and General Atomics Aeronautical Systems will continue to design the first increment of the collaborative combat aircraft (CCA) for the U.S. Air Force.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com
Anduril and General Atomic for CCA
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I wonder if Fury is the Anduril submission? As an aggressor it has high performance but size wise I do not see how it gets range or payload that CCA would need.
 

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