USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS

SparkyDinosaur

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
May 6, 2021
Messages
17
Reaction score
10
Here is a proposed hybrid approach to solve the stability problem on a further iteration of Lockheed's ESAV, funny how they came with a creative way of recycling the MANTA acronym one more time:


Abstract:
Tailless aircraft offer advantages such as increased aerodynamic efficiencies through reductions in weight and parasitic drag. However, the advantages associated with the removal of the vertical tail are stymied by a loss of stability and control authority, which is particularly detrimental during the low-speed flight regime of take-off and landing. To address instability issues and reestablish control authority, this study explores the addition of an articulated “tail” to a tailless aircraft, instead of a vertical tail. As a conceptually designed aircraft, the Multi-Articulated Nodal Tailed Aircraft (MANTA) concept is investigated using the Air Force Research Lab’s Computational Aircraft Prototype Syntheses (CAPS) system.

View attachment 677659View attachment 677658

Amazing what comes back into fashion after 150 million years!
 

Attachments

  • 44FF0EA6-5134-41D8-BBA5-9C7D60F77E0C.jpeg
    44FF0EA6-5134-41D8-BBA5-9C7D60F77E0C.jpeg
    116.8 KB · Views: 43

rooster

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 21, 2019
Messages
440
Reaction score
295
The thrust vectoring is neat from an engineering perspective but damn you've got to keep the costs realistic or else we're not even going to get 187 of these things.

As Stalin said, quantity is a quality all its own.

Adding 12 million to the price tag isn't worth the slightly less radar signature from the side aspect.

There's a hell of a lot of airplane that can be had on a budget and we can afford more of them if we are cost conscious about the matter.

There's no way in hell we will get even 200 if the reports are true about costing hundreds of millions per copy. If it grows to much over 150M we won't get what we need and I'm sick of hearing "But but drones..." when the technology is just as much as manned... all you're doing is saving on life support and spending on Uber expensive computers, sensors and hopefully jam-proof communications
 
Last edited:

X-39

Armchair Engineer
Joined
Feb 21, 2021
Messages
127
Reaction score
199

Navy’s F/A-XX Fighter Will be the ‘Quarterback’ for a Team of Unmanned Aircraft​

By: Mallory Shelbourne
April 28, 2022 5:53 PM

The future F/A-XX sixth-generation fighter will operate as the Navy’s “quarterback” for manned and unmanned teaming in future carrier operations, according to the service.



Navy officials described the vision for the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program, meant to expand the range for carrier-based operations, in written testimony to Congress this week.


“The NGAD [family of systems] will replace the F/A-18E/F Block II aircraft as they begin to reach end of service life in the 2030s and leverage Manned-Unmanned Teaming (MUM-T) in order to provide increased lethality and survivability,” reads joint testimony from Department of Navy acquisition officials. “F/A-XX is the strike fighter component of the NGAD FoS that will be the ‘Quarterback’ of the MUM-T concept, directing multiple tactical platforms at the leading edge of the battlespace.”


Jay Stefany, who is currently performing the duties of the assistant secretary of the Navy for research, development and acquisition, deputy chief of naval operations for warfighting requirements and capabilities (OPNAV N9) Vice Adm. Scott Conn, and Marine Corps deputy commandant for combat development and integration Lt. Gen. Karsten Heckl submitted the written testimony earlier this week to the Senate Armed Services seapower subcommittee.


According to their testimony, the Navy initiated the “concept refinement” stage for F/A-XX, which is expected to be a manned fighter, in Fiscal Year 2021. That phase is progressing on time, the officials told Congress.


Stefany, along with the chief of naval operation’s air warfare director (OPNAV N98) Rear Adm. Andrew Loiselle and Marine Corps deputy commandant for Aviation Lt. Gen. Mark Wise submitted similar testimony about NGAD this week in a joint statement to the House Armed Services tactical air and land force subcommittee.


The idea for NGAD is that a family of manned and unmanned systems will work together, centered around F/A-XX, which is expected to be a manned fighter.


“These manned and unmanned aircraft plus attritable assets will be employed across domains to enable integrated kinetic and non-kinetic fires at tactically relevant ranges,” the Navy’s 2030-2035 aviation vision document from last year reads. “As autonomy and [machine learning] efforts mature, the appropriate mix of F/A-XX, manned and unmanned platforms will be evaluated to ensure the most lethal and affordable [carrier air wing] possible.”


The F/A-XX platform will ultimately succeed the F/A-18E/F Super Hornets as they reach the end of their service lives in the 2030s.


“Its specific capabilities and technologies are under development, however analysis shows it must have longer range and greater speed, incorporate passive and active sensor technology, and possess the capability to employ the longer-range weapons programmed for the future,” the aviation vision says of F/A-XX. “As the Super Hornets are retired from service, a combination of F-35C and F/A-XX will provide Navy tactical fighter aircraft capability and capacity within the CVW.”



The effective combat radius of the carrier air wing has contracted since the F-14 Tomcat interceptor left the inventory in the early 2000s. Due to the Pentagon’s strategy focused on the Indo-Pacific and the need to counter China in a potential conflict, the Navy has had to explore ways to extend the range of carrier operations due to the vastness of the region. The combat radius will nominally increase with the introduction of the MQ-25A Stingray unmanned carrier tanker. The first MQ-25As will deploy on USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-73) in 2026.


While the Navy is currently putting more research and development dollars into the NGAD program, the service has kept those costs classified for three consecutive budget cycles. During the March rollout of the FY 2023 budget proposal, Navy deputy assistant secretary for budget Rear Adm. John Gumbleton acknowledge that the research and development spending for NGAD increase “somewhat dramatically” across the Pentagon’s five-year spending plan.


Navy officials have repeatedly cited classification when asked for details about the program, but the service has not said why the research and development costs for NGAD are classified.


The Air Force is developing a separate Next Generation Air Dominance program. While the Navy and Air Force efforts are different programs, the concepts are similar in that a manned fighter would operate with unmanned aircraft.
 

FighterJock

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
2,330
Reaction score
1,222
I always thought that the USAF would do something like that with the NGAD, having it as a controller for UCAVS and acting like a mini AWACS.
 

rooster

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 21, 2019
Messages
440
Reaction score
295

Navy’s F/A-XX Fighter Will be the ‘Quarterback’ for a Team of Unmanned Aircraft​

By: Mallory Shelbourne
April 28, 2022 5:53 PM

The future F/A-XX sixth-generation fighter will operate as the Navy’s “quarterback” for manned and unmanned teaming in future carrier operations, according to the service.



Navy officials described the vision for the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program, meant to expand the range for carrier-based operations, in written testimony to Congress this week.


“The NGAD [family of systems] will replace the F/A-18E/F Block II aircraft as they begin to reach end of service life in the 2030s and leverage Manned-Unmanned Teaming (MUM-T) in order to provide increased lethality and survivability,” reads joint testimony from Department of Navy acquisition officials. “F/A-XX is the strike fighter component of the NGAD FoS that will be the ‘Quarterback’ of the MUM-T concept, directing multiple tactical platforms at the leading edge of the battlespace.”


Jay Stefany, who is currently performing the duties of the assistant secretary of the Navy for research, development and acquisition, deputy chief of naval operations for warfighting requirements and capabilities (OPNAV N9) Vice Adm. Scott Conn, and Marine Corps deputy commandant for combat development and integration Lt. Gen. Karsten Heckl submitted the written testimony earlier this week to the Senate Armed Services seapower subcommittee.


According to their testimony, the Navy initiated the “concept refinement” stage for F/A-XX, which is expected to be a manned fighter, in Fiscal Year 2021. That phase is progressing on time, the officials told Congress.


Stefany, along with the chief of naval operation’s air warfare director (OPNAV N98) Rear Adm. Andrew Loiselle and Marine Corps deputy commandant for Aviation Lt. Gen. Mark Wise submitted similar testimony about NGAD this week in a joint statement to the House Armed Services tactical air and land force subcommittee.


The idea for NGAD is that a family of manned and unmanned systems will work together, centered around F/A-XX, which is expected to be a manned fighter.


“These manned and unmanned aircraft plus attritable assets will be employed across domains to enable integrated kinetic and non-kinetic fires at tactically relevant ranges,” the Navy’s 2030-2035 aviation vision document from last year reads. “As autonomy and [machine learning] efforts mature, the appropriate mix of F/A-XX, manned and unmanned platforms will be evaluated to ensure the most lethal and affordable [carrier air wing] possible.”


The F/A-XX platform will ultimately succeed the F/A-18E/F Super Hornets as they reach the end of their service lives in the 2030s.


“Its specific capabilities and technologies are under development, however analysis shows it must have longer range and greater speed, incorporate passive and active sensor technology, and possess the capability to employ the longer-range weapons programmed for the future,” the aviation vision says of F/A-XX. “As the Super Hornets are retired from service, a combination of F-35C and F/A-XX will provide Navy tactical fighter aircraft capability and capacity within the CVW.”



The effective combat radius of the carrier air wing has contracted since the F-14 Tomcat interceptor left the inventory in the early 2000s. Due to the Pentagon’s strategy focused on the Indo-Pacific and the need to counter China in a potential conflict, the Navy has had to explore ways to extend the range of carrier operations due to the vastness of the region. The combat radius will nominally increase with the introduction of the MQ-25A Stingray unmanned carrier tanker. The first MQ-25As will deploy on USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-73) in 2026.


While the Navy is currently putting more research and development dollars into the NGAD program, the service has kept those costs classified for three consecutive budget cycles. During the March rollout of the FY 2023 budget proposal, Navy deputy assistant secretary for budget Rear Adm. John Gumbleton acknowledge that the research and development spending for NGAD increase “somewhat dramatically” across the Pentagon’s five-year spending plan.


Navy officials have repeatedly cited classification when asked for details about the program, but the service has not said why the research and development costs for NGAD are classified.


The Air Force is developing a separate Next Generation Air Dominance program. While the Navy and Air Force efforts are different programs, the concepts are similar in that a manned fighter would operate with unmanned aircraft.
In other words, they are planning on failure and are putting their eggs in the UCAV basked which has absolutely never once been used for air superiority or even been demonstrated that it can be. Here's an idea: stick with what works while you develop an entirely new form of aerial warfare and gradually shift the dynamic as the unmanned systems are actually proven and reliable in A2A.

Here's what happens when the don't build an airplane but instead build a family of systems: the drones don't fly and fight if the NGAD has issues or is cut/canceled. If the drones have issues then having a token force of ~150 controller-NGAD (thats about you're going to get if it's a fancy little AWACS controlling drones and 35s - which btw don't need to be controlled) is absolutely meaningless. Take one leg away from the stool and the stool falls over.

And now instead of fielding one aircraft, you've got to simultaneously field 2-3 aircraft all at the same time on the same schedule for NGAD is useless without the drones and the drones useless without NGAD.

And now the engineering and troubleshooting complexities are exponentially increased. So the NGAD told a drone to launch an AAM and the AAM misses.... Do you 1) troubleshoot NGAD, 2) troubleshoot the drone, 3) troubleshoot the AAM or 4) the obvious and only choice is to troubleshoot everything.

Now what happens when Northrop says their NGAD worked flawlessly but it was Boeing's drone that focked up? And what happens then Boeing says it was the NGADs fault for giving bad info to their drone? Hm? This is exactly what it going to happen.

You are all being sold on a lie. You are being sold on America cannot afford a manned air superiority fighter for it's Navy and that drones will be cheaper and more effective. It's a lie and anyone with any experience engineering complex vehicles will tell you so.

Being set up to fail.
 
Last edited:

NANICA

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
May 9, 2022
Messages
3
Reaction score
1
Here is a proposed hybrid approach to solve the stability problem on a further iteration of Lockheed's ESAV, funny how they came with a creative way of recycling the MANTA acronym one more time:


Abstract:
Tailless aircraft offer advantages such as increased aerodynamic efficiencies through reductions in weight and parasitic drag. However, the advantages associated with the removal of the vertical tail are stymied by a loss of stability and control authority, which is particularly detrimental during the low-speed flight regime of take-off and landing. To address instability issues and reestablish control authority, this study explores the addition of an articulated “tail” to a tailless aircraft, instead of a vertical tail. As a conceptually designed aircraft, the Multi-Articulated Nodal Tailed Aircraft (MANTA) concept is investigated using the Air Force Research Lab’s Computational Aircraft Prototype Syntheses (CAPS) system.

View attachment 677659View attachment 677658

Amazing what comes back into fashion after 150 million years!
Why don't they use active flow control technologies .
 

X-39

Armchair Engineer
Joined
Feb 21, 2021
Messages
127
Reaction score
199
Here is a proposed hybrid approach to solve the stability problem on a further iteration of Lockheed's ESAV, funny how they came with a creative way of recycling the MANTA acronym one more time:


Abstract:
Tailless aircraft offer advantages such as increased aerodynamic efficiencies through reductions in weight and parasitic drag. However, the advantages associated with the removal of the vertical tail are stymied by a loss of stability and control authority, which is particularly detrimental during the low-speed flight regime of take-off and landing. To address instability issues and reestablish control authority, this study explores the addition of an articulated “tail” to a tailless aircraft, instead of a vertical tail. As a conceptually designed aircraft, the Multi-Articulated Nodal Tailed Aircraft (MANTA) concept is investigated using the Air Force Research Lab’s Computational Aircraft Prototype Syntheses (CAPS) system.

View attachment 677659View attachment 677658

Amazing what comes back into fashion after 150 million years!
Why don't they use active flow control technologies .
The tech is not ready yet: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-with-novel-effectors-crane.32882/post-510264
 
Top