Turkish UAV Developments & Fielding

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TB2 have for some time been produced without the Wescam sensors, no? I read that Argos-II sensor has replaced them on more recent airframes.

Turkmenistan is the only country that operates TB2 with S.African Hensoldt Argos-II E/O

The base E/O of the TB2 is now Turkey's Aselsan CATS.
 

totoro

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I'm trying to find some data on CATS but the brochures are fairly slim. One mentions laser designator range up to 30 km, other says overall range of CATS up to 25 km.

Now those may be vague figures that understate real capabilities. Or they pertain to classification range, but not detection range. But if they're not - then Argos II beats those figures by a lot. I found a quite detailed article on Argos II showing both thermal and visual channel detection range, in good visibility conditions, against a pickup truck sized target to be 50 km.

Certainly, with a 40 cm inch diameter - the wescam, argos and CATS EO balls could, in theory where they reach same technology level one day, have similar capabilities as sensors inside Sniper targeting pods - as those feature same 40 cm diameter EO balls.
 

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I'm trying to find some data on CATS but the brochures are fairly slim. One mentions laser designator range up to 30 km, other says overall range of CATS up to 25 km.

Now those may be vague figures that understate real capabilities. Or they pertain to classification range, but not detection range. But if they're not - then Argos II beats those figures by a lot. I found a quite detailed article on Argos II showing both thermal and visual channel detection range, in good visibility conditions, against a pickup truck sized target to be 50 km.

Certainly, with a 40 cm inch diameter - the wescam, argos and CATS EO balls could, in theory where they reach same technology level one day, have similar capabilities as sensors inside Sniper targeting pods - as those feature same 40 cm diameter EO balls.

All brochures on the Aselsan CATS are out-dated.

I don't understand your performance comparison between laser designator range and visual range.
 

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All the footage we see coming out of Ukraine from it's use of TB2 are all hand shot 'leaked'. This leaves me to think that Turkey may have requested Ukraine to limit/play-down TB2 usage for continued support whilst limiting Russian backlash. Ukraine's media team could have done wonders using TB2 for propaganda.

- Translation of people talking in the command centre, seems Russia may be employing decoys and Ukrainian side is aware of it
View: https://twitter.com/Axub4/status/1501891059776991233?s=20&t=Wf6WgFG-WPNceiioDKZLKw
 
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dan_inbox

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All the footage we see coming out of Ukraine from it's use of TB2 are all hand shot 'leaked'. This leaves me to think that Turkey may have requested Ukraine to limit/play-down TB2 usage for continued support whilst limiting Russian backlash. Ukraine's media team could have done wonders using TB2 for propaganda.
TB2 is scoring huge propaganda success in Ukraine now, after the previous success in Nagorno Karabakh in 2020.
Any signs of Russian backlash on the Turkey-Syria border?
 

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All the footage we see coming out of Ukraine from it's use of TB2 are all hand shot 'leaked'. This leaves me to think that Turkey may have requested Ukraine to limit/play-down TB2 usage for continued support whilst limiting Russian backlash. Ukraine's media team could have done wonders using TB2 for propaganda.
TB2 is scoring huge propaganda success in Ukraine now, after the previous success in Nagorno Karabakh in 2020.
Any signs of Russian backlash on the Turkey-Syria border?

Despite blocking passage of naval vessels through the Bosphorus, Turkey has not implemented economic sanctions nor flight restrictions. So Turkey is balancing, Turkish-Syrian border is calm and Idlib truce is holding.
 

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Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced Wednesday the government would provide $50 million in new military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine. Some of that money will be used to purchase Wescam surveillance cameras for Ukraine’s Bayraktar TB2 armed drones. The Bayraktar TB2 is built by Turkey and has been sold to Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Poland and several other nations.

 

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"A larger and more agile fish entered the production line 3 and a half years later.

MIUS - Unmanned Fighter Aircraft:

It's on the way, stay tuned.."

View: https://twitter.com/Selcuk/status/1502606947295674369?s=20&t=7bKorod7DB5wpRD2COS8wQ

Name of this aircraft is Bayraktar Kızılelma (Red Apple)

In Turkic mythology. Red apple represents an ideal or a goal Turkic people strive to reach but the closer you get the further it runs away so in reality you will never reach it

FNpVDTQXwAohC9I.jpg
FNpVDhKXIAEu8rl.jpg

You can also see the TB-2 and Akinci production is at full tilt.
 
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"A larger and more agile fish entered the production line 3 and a half years later.

MIUS - Unmanned Fighter Aircraft:

It's on the way, stay tuned.."

View: https://twitter.com/Selcuk/status/1502606947295674369?s=20&t=7bKorod7DB5wpRD2COS8wQ

Name of this aircraft is Bayraktar Kızılelma (Red Apple)

In Turkic mythology. Red apple represents an ideal or a goal Turkic people strive to reach but the closer you get the further it runs away so in reality you will never reach it

View attachment 675425
View attachment 675427

You can also see the TB-2 and Akinci production is at full tilt.

HQ pics
IMG_3003.JPG
IMG_3004.JPG
 

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Sailplane-ish thick, laminar-flow airfoils are pretty typical of MALE/HALE UAVs. A reflex airfoil would curve the the other way, BTW.
 

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With the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, wont the supply of Ivchenko AI-25TLT engines be a problem ? Is there an alternative powerplant being considered for this project ?
 

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With the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, wont the supply of Ivchenko AI-25TLT engines be a problem ? Is there an alternative powerplant being considered for this project ?

Nothing has been shared regarding alternatives.
There were rumours of an indigenous engine being developed in the same class, but the rumours are heavily based on patent filings with nothing substantial to back it up.
 

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Sailplane-ish thick, laminar-flow airfoils are pretty typical of MALE/HALE UAVs. A reflex airfoil would curve the the other way, BTW.
I see that the internet has been going wild on that term. Reflex airfoils only means that the trailing edge part of the lower airfoil surface is hollowed (curved) upward to balance the pressure distribution. The Bf/Me109 is one of the typical aircraft having a reflex airfoil (hence its small elevator surfaces).

TB-2 has also not a laminar airfoil. The maximum thickness seems to be around 40% of the chord, with a geometry akin to a Naca 4 or 5!
 

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"A larger and more agile fish entered the production line 3 and a half years later.

MIUS - Unmanned Fighter Aircraft:

It's on the way, stay tuned.."

View: https://twitter.com/Selcuk/status/1502606947295674369?s=20&t=7bKorod7DB5wpRD2COS8wQ

Name of this aircraft is Bayraktar Kızılelma (Red Apple)

In Turkic mythology. Red apple represents an ideal or a goal Turkic people strive to reach but the closer you get the further it runs away so in reality you will never reach it

View attachment 675425
View attachment 675427

You can also see the TB-2 and Akinci production is at full tilt.


Well?!! That's a mock up only?
 

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"A larger and more agile fish entered the production line 3 and a half years later.

MIUS - Unmanned Fighter Aircraft:

It's on the way, stay tuned.."

View: https://twitter.com/Selcuk/status/1502606947295674369?s=20&t=7bKorod7DB5wpRD2COS8wQ

Name of this aircraft is Bayraktar Kızılelma (Red Apple)

In Turkic mythology. Red apple represents an ideal or a goal Turkic people strive to reach but the closer you get the further it runs away so in reality you will never reach it

View attachment 675425
View attachment 675427

You can also see the TB-2 and Akinci production is at full tilt.


Well?!! That's a mock up only?

It's not a mock-up, this is the first prototype. Composite aircraft aren't built traditionally, access points and panels are cut out after.

Further confirmed by the BaykarTech Head of Technology;
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt21E8tjO6E


Just like first Akinci PT-1 prototype;
1647257566826.png
1647257654811.png
 

alberchico

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I hope they have an alternate powerplant that can be retrofitted to this design. Would Turkey ever consider using Russian engines or is that politically impossible ? Does China have an engine in this category that can be utilized ?
 

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22 days into the Ukraine-Russia war, first confirmed loss of a TB2 emerges.
View: https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1504378850347732994?s=20&t=QfAADsn4JcUjJtflr52Avg

-----------------------

1647516544445.png
There seems to be a quality control issue, the sticker attached reads "Remove this sticker when the unit is connected to the Aircraft."
A technician at BaykarTech was not doing his duties properly, since the sticker is still attached.

Identified to be power distribution system
1647516678194.png

 
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Where are those guys few pages back that were saying TB2 wasn't the bane of Russia, that TB2 wouldn't stand a chance against a conventional foe ? Don't worry, honestly I'm surprised too. :-D
 

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Well, making the right prediction for all the wrong reasons is indicative of luck, not wisdom.

1) We're operating with a very incomplete picture that shows only what either side wants us to see. Ukrainian sources are understandably reluctant to give an accurate picture of any TB2 losses. Russia for its part is ceding the social media war almost entirely so as to not contradict the propaganda narrative of a limited special operation for its domestic audience. Consider wreckage access: TB2s destroyed on the ground are automatically on Ukrainian-controlled territory (and therefore unlikely to be publicized), as will a good chunk of any shoot-downs.

2) You operate on the implicit assumption that Russia is in fact a conventional foe. On paper that is certainly true and everybody expected it to operate like one, but the key surprise is that it is actually repeating many of the same mistakes made by forces that previously fared poorly against TB2s. Experts have been shocked by the low level of EW activity and Russia has still not established air superiority (US officials noted only yesterday that the VKS remains averse to operating over Ukraine proper). Coordination among ground forces has been disastrously bad, they regularly outran supply lines early on, nevermind SAM cover.

To conclude from the conflict to date that TB2s (or similar UAVs) can make a significant difference against a conventional foe is to disregard the elementary problem that Russia is not acting like such an adversary at all. Failing to account for the flawed premise is liable to lead one into drawing the wrong conclusions.
 

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Well, making the right prediction for all the wrong reasons is indicative of luck, not wisdom.

1) We're operating with a very incomplete picture that shows only what either side wants us to see. Ukrainian sources are understandably reluctant to give an accurate picture of any TB2 losses. Russia for its part is ceding the social media war almost entirely so as to not contradict the propaganda narrative of a limited special operation for its domestic audience. Consider wreckage access: TB2s destroyed on the ground are automatically on Ukrainian-controlled territory (and therefore unlikely to be publicized), as will a good chunk of any shoot-downs.

2) You operate on the implicit assumption that Russia is in fact a conventional foe. On paper that is certainly true and everybody expected it to operate like one, but the key surprise is that it is actually repeating many of the same mistakes made by forces that previously fared poorly against TB2s. Experts have been shocked by the low level of EW activity and Russia has still not established air superiority (US officials noted only yesterday that the VKS remains averse to operating over Ukraine proper). Coordination among ground forces has been disastrously bad, they regularly outran supply lines early on, nevermind SAM cover.

To conclude from the conflict to date that TB2s (or similar UAVs) can make a significant difference against a conventional foe is to disregard the elementary problem that Russia is not acting like such an adversary at all. Failing to account for the flawed premise is liable to lead one into drawing the wrong conclusions.
Or are you just determined not to give any credit where it’s due. Especially as I don’t think the idea that even conventionally powered drones can have a big impact in conflicts is not exactly a new idea and why there is such a strong market for them.
 

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