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Turkish TFX National Combat Aircraft

tequilashooter

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It's not a matter of hate or love, or anything to do with preference. I must first question if you know what actually means to be 5th gen in the first place. As we all know, building a 5th generation aircraft doesn't simply mean getting some edges aligned and add an internal weapons bay. What's crucial would be integration of every avionics and achieving higher level of sophistication.
Everyone has their own definition of 5th gen such as one having preference for 360 degree radar coverage over midwave, short wave infrared coverage. Some 5th gens have a preference for a secondary sensor long wave infrared target detection.

One example would be how F-35 fuses its data from various sensor to form a unified picture of 2-sphere airspace and every traffic around it, applies that data to its CNI channel and identify those tracks from 2-sphere with its SDR radios and respond if the bogey is found to be hostile. By analyzing the level of threat, suggest its pilot the best solution, which would either be to ignore, re-route, use EW to electronically attack or directly engage with its munitions and LPI radar mode. It is also able to share this picture and data (sufficient for fire control purposes) using highly stealthy LPI data links such as those ones like MADL or simply use other JTRS like the WNW. This combined with the VLO airframe design lets this aircraft to operate as VLO. It's crucial that both sides exists as a single package.

Turkey seems to also pursue sensor fusion for the TFX according to what I am reading here so we cant say the TFX wont be able to share information https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...tically-with-the-turkish-fighter-project-4312. Well I honestly am a critic at some of there claims from before that were not TFX related but they seem to take sensor fusion into consideration but when to apply it there is no time frame.

Moreover, you call people out to 'hate TF-X only, when there are other fighter jet development programs going on internationally' but I haven't seen anyone apart from the Indian themselves who think AMCA to be realistic at all, for example. Apart from that, the KF-X is clearly 4.5th gen and will be 4.5th gen, Japan's plan to build 5.5th gen aircraft cannot be compared to the aforementioned examples since their technology level far exceeds any of these 3 countries. Chinese 5th generation programs are the results of their sheer amount of investment which is incomparable to that of Turkey or India. We also understand nowadays that the Russians are taking, say, a different approach to 5th generation compared to other countries.

Yeah funding is important but so are lowering maintenance costs like using fiber optics to sense wear and tear in an aircraft or trying to reduce flight costs of 44,000$. I cant determine Turkey's financial situation of what they are willing to fund other than appearing serious about building aircraft related factories or what numbers they want. Stealth as a 5th gen requirement can be improved with more breakthroughs in metamaterials, like the Russian's stating that bending radiowaves around an aircraft works better than absorption and reflecting radio waves away and China stating 1000 times lower RCS for aircrafts if applied. But I do not know where the U.S. stands between the two in this field but for a country like Turkey that might be a little difficult. Countries have different low RCS requirements which no one can determine which option is the best.

Lastly, it's not like photonic radars are something "better" than the phased array but a different kind of antenna back end. Also, first implement, then talk. If anything, I'm still more impressed with fully digital beam forming arrays that are being developed in the west right now, which is also far more technologically ambitious.

There are slight advantages that I see with AESA MMICs over PESA but the advantages of the news reports of PICs appear to be more huge that I might even go as far as stating that a 4th gen equipped with such a radar might give a 5th gen a run for its money. If you want sources for the below points I wont mind providing them to you but I do not really want to stray away from this thread.

1. Chinese stating the background noise is lowered more than 100 times, while KRET stats a Kamaz truck mounted radar would have the same kind of radar performance in finding targets as a ground building radar that is several stories high.

2. radars having EW immunity in which they state there is no such thing that can exceed 200 decibels to jam the radar, so imagine a bunch of aircrafts trying to jam the radar performance of a single aircraft that remains unaffected while that aircraft can freely jam other aircrafts.

3. Using lower waves than firecontrol has resulted in 10 times increase in RCS but a less precision in tracking but performances in firecontrol homing radar beams on air to air missiles will search where the big target is for better precision and engagement.

4. SAR resolution capabilities of seeing and recognizing human faces.

5. 100ghz would offer amazing high precision tracking capabilities and lowering the noise loss would give it a better range than what MMICs have offered with it before. The news that was received yesterday has shown that the antennas seem a little bit thicker than paint so 360 degree coverage would be perfect to create a mini-missile APS probably the size of the quadpack pantsir proposal, because I am sure the homing performance might suck based on size but what the ranges are of the 100ghz higher precision tracking being used with photonic integrated circuits might compensate for the homing capabilities of miniature APS missile to engage air to air missiles instead of just DIRCM.

6. 100s of qubits of radar data transmission claimed, that just for the fun of it I decided to find out what the data traffic of the entire UK is and apparently the radar meets or exceeds the busiest traffic hours of the entire country and lets just say I know a 6th gen aircraft with radar data transmission claims of a city's worth of data.

7. This is rather unknown but I wonder how good the EW suppression capabilities might be.

Sure their companies KRET and RTI state the they are 5-10 years behind the west in MMICs, maybe even further behind when comparing them to Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, but PICs are a different animal from MMICs.

In same sense, the DIRCM of Su-57 and the lack thereof on F-35 should be understood as what I mentioned to be the different approach to 5th generation. It's not like doom and gloom all of the sudden for the J-20 and Lightning because the Felon has one and it doesn't

Countries have a different pace in technology and some that are hard to determine such as Russia had no major drone projects and yet they surprised everyone out of nowhere with a heavy stealth drone project while giving production dates while other countries that had heavy stealth drone projects longer have not offered any production dates. Had no operational AESA but might be the 1st to equip ROFAR. Had no major laser projects like the kilowatt projects offered by other countries than all of a sudden I see megawatt laser projects from them emerging. Soviet union made the kholod project, Ufimtsev work being praised by skunkworks as a rosetta stone, operation mount hope 3, project azorian shows creativity from one country that does not invest a crazy amount of money on projects causes another richer country to be curious. I would like to see Turkey's creativity.
 

Bhurki

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Countries have a different pace in technology and some that are hard to determine such as Russia had no major drone projects and yet they surprised everyone out of nowhere with a heavy stealth drone project while giving production dates while other countries that had heavy stealth drone projects longer have not offered any production dates.
Subsonic drones aren't cutting edge. All the ingredients required to make it are essentially commercially available.
Sure there are software and network leaps required to get to NLOS presistent operation, but the underlying 'hard' tech is all already there (engine, airframe material, targeting sensors etc) which can be sources from pre-existing miltech.
A drone for example doesn't need to perform a supersonic dash, make 9g turns and attack something thats doing the same, all the while protecting itself against double digit SA batteries.

I would like to see Turkey's creativity.
Creativity can only take you so far. It certainly allows to repackage the tech you already have into innovative platforms to cut costs or enhance mission capability for the same set of targets.

But it requires hard cash, crap ton of engineers and decades to learn how to maintain 2000°C TIT for hours without sustaining turbine damage. It requires a litter of hundred mil $ labs to test out all the subsystem prototypes and also an ecosystem that can digest the knowledge to then put it into production efficiently without each unit costing the equivalent of a small nation's budget.
 

Combat-Master

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As for the Hürjet's engine saga ... this is allegedly from GE!

View attachment 651965

I posted this some time back, presentation document here - https://www.ge.com/sites/default/files/ge_webcast_presentation_11042020.pdf

Though, with rumours that US has blocked MK41 VLS launcher sales for Turkey's I-Class frigate (Turkish VLS launchers are being developed). It is looking ever more grim for US engines on Turkish aircraft, I'm sure there were alternative engines in the pipework however, let's see how this unfolds.
 

Maro.Kyo

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Everyone has their own definition of 5th gen such as one having preference for 360 degree radar coverage over midwave, short wave infrared coverage. Some 5th gens have a preference for a secondary sensor long wave infrared target detection.

They all have something in common such as lowering the returning RF signals from hostile active sensors or incorporating multiple passive sensors with fusion engine. All of these done in a level higher than what the legacy 4th and 4.5th generation aircraft could do is what puts these 5th generation aircrafts apart.

Turkey seems to also pursue sensor fusion for the TFX according to what I am reading here so we cant say the TFX wont be able to share information https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...tically-with-the-turkish-fighter-project-4312. Well I honestly am a critic at some of there claims from before that were not TFX related but they seem to take sensor fusion into consideration but when to apply it there is no time frame.

Everyone could just say I could do this and that. Remember that every 4.5th generation aircraft also do incorporate data fusion to a certain extent. It's just that the level of implementation is such that it is incomparable to what the 5tth generation aircraft could achieve. Well to be exact, what the American 5th generation could achieve since there are not much known about the capabilities of the Russian sensor fusion engine. From that reason the scape of operation are vastly different between the two.

Yeah funding is important but so are lowering maintenance costs like using fiber optics to sense wear and tear in an aircraft or trying to reduce flight costs of 44,000$. I cant determine Turkey's financial situation of what they are willing to fund other than appearing serious about building aircraft related factories or what numbers they want. Stealth as a 5th gen requirement can be improved with more breakthroughs in metamaterials, like the Russian's stating that bending radiowaves around an aircraft works better than absorption and reflecting radio waves away and China stating 1000 times lower RCS for aircrafts if applied. But I do not know where the U.S. stands between the two in this field but for a country like Turkey that might be a little difficult. Countries have different low RCS requirements which no one can determine which option is the best.

They are investing a measly $ 8 billion into their development program. Even when we consider the recent devaluation of Lira, it is still a extremely small budget for a 5th generation stealth fighter jet. Also keep in mind that they are paying BAE in dollars and paying a lot. I didn't even talk about F-35 so you're hitting a strawman.

Also meta materials ain't anything new. Moreover it is not just limited to signal reduction of aircrafts but could be implemented for a very wide range of technology starting from IR or acoustic signal reduction to application into sensors like single array multi-band radar or even LED display panels. To think that US is playing around not doing much in such field of useful technology is delusional, thus is incorrect.

Requirement for RCS is what you can tradeoff. For example the US and Chinese fighter planes went with a fundamentally lower RCS planes with higher passive SA capabilities housed conformally in the fuselage in mind. On the other hand, the Russians opted for a more hard kill option, a DIRCM coupled with more active sensors such as the side facing radars and wing leading edge L-Band radars, higher kinematics capability. I've also said that it is a "different approach", by which I mean that it isn't something superior nor inferior. Different requirements and approach for the same goal ain't

There are slight advantages that I see with AESA MMICs over PESA but the advantages of the news reports of PICs appear to be more huge that I might even go as far as stating that a 4th gen equipped with such a radar might give a 5th gen a run for its money. If you want sources for the below points I wont mind providing them to you but I do not really want to stray away from this thread.

1. Chinese stating the background noise is lowered more than 100 times, while KRET stats a Kamaz truck mounted radar would have the same kind of radar performance in finding targets as a ground building radar that is several stories high.

2. radars having EW immunity in which they state there is no such thing that can exceed 200 decibels to jam the radar, so imagine a bunch of aircrafts trying to jam the radar performance of a single aircraft that remains unaffected while that aircraft can freely jam other aircrafts.

3. Using lower waves than firecontrol has resulted in 10 times increase in RCS but a less precision in tracking but performances in firecontrol homing radar beams on air to air missiles will search where the big target is for better precision and engagement.

4. SAR resolution capabilities of seeing and recognizing human faces.

5. 100ghz would offer amazing high precision tracking capabilities and lowering the noise loss would give it a better range than what MMICs have offered with it before. The news that was received yesterday has shown that the antennas seem a little bit thicker than paint so 360 degree coverage would be perfect to create a mini-missile APS probably the size of the quadpack pantsir proposal, because I am sure the homing performance might suck based on size but what the ranges are of the 100ghz higher precision tracking being used with photonic integrated circuits might compensate for the homing capabilities of miniature APS missile to engage air to air missiles instead of just DIRCM.

6. 100s of qubits of radar data transmission claimed, that just for the fun of it I decided to find out what the data traffic of the entire UK is and apparently the radar meets or exceeds the busiest traffic hours of the entire country and lets just say I know a 6th gen aircraft with radar data transmission claims of a city's worth of data.

7. This is rather unknown but I wonder how good the EW suppression capabilities might be.

Sure their companies KRET and RTI state the they are 5-10 years behind the west in MMICs, maybe even further behind when comparing them to Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, but PICs are a different animal from MMICs.

I should tell you one thing. The Japanese have already implemented photonic AESA radars for their P-1 few years ago. Sure, photonic radars give you SNR advantage among other things but I wouldn't buy into all those fancy numbers without a concrete context. Also, while Russia was lagging behind in AESA capabilities, Japan was the first country in the world to field AESA on their ship as well as their planes. To think that the west, especially those like Japan and the US are lagging behind in this field is, once more, delusional. If they aren't using it yet for fighter jets, there is a reason for it. In this case, not worth all the fuzz as of yet because the current analog back end being replaced with digital back end already gives significant leap. Thus going even further with technologies like fully digital array where every single TRM acts as one channel, dubbed TRC.

Countries have a different pace in technology and some that are hard to determine such as Russia had no major drone projects and yet they surprised everyone out of nowhere with a heavy stealth drone project while giving production dates while other countries that had heavy stealth drone projects longer have not offered any production dates. Had no operational AESA but might be the 1st to equip ROFAR. Had no major laser projects like the kilowatt projects offered by other countries than all of a sudden I see megawatt laser projects from them emerging. Soviet union made the kholod project, Ufimtsev work being praised by skunkworks as a rosetta stone, operation mount hope 3, project azorian shows creativity from one country that does not invest a crazy amount of money on projects causes another richer country to be curious. I would like to see Turkey's creativity.

The US has seen more advantage in a refueling drone than the outright UCAVs and therefore changed its requirements for the UCLASS. They are opting for even higher levels of MUMT before actually using the UCAVs for such roles and as of now we could already see how this is turning out with their competition for the AI that is to be equipped on board of SKYBORG UCAVs.

To think that this "different pace" thing is actually the case at all is baffling. The US has been fielding various DIRCMs and has been researching photonic radars for years now. If anything, the Russians not being able to implement the works of Ufimtsev before the US only shows the capability of the US to capitalize on a theory for real world advantage and would even fit more to your narrative of "different pace in technology" favoring the US.
 

tequilashooter

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Also meta materials ain't anything new. Moreover it is not just limited to signal reduction of aircrafts but could be implemented for a very wide range of technology starting from IR or acoustic signal reduction to application into sensors like single array multi-band radar or even LED display panels. To think that US is playing around not doing much in such field of useful technology is delusional, thus is incorrect.
Of course its nothing new but has to be further researched for better results, sort of like scramjets not going immediately into military operation when the kholod project was presented, all the way until the mid 2020s https://naukatehnika.com/anapol-novyij-metamaterial-dlya-stels-pokryitij.html "The international team of scientists from NITU "MISS" and the Polytechnic University of Turin (Italy) in cooperation on the project ANASTASIA proposed a fundamentally new version of stealth camouflage, which will allow the radar signal sent to the object not to be reflected, not absorbed, but simply to pass through, as if there is no object. This method of camouflage is not based on the creation of a concealer coating, but on the change of the configuration of the entire system of the object. "The stealth camouflage used today is far from perfect. Such coating is expensive, and for more efficient work it needs the most smooth surface - as a result, in aircraft, for example, have to sacrifice aerodynamic characteristics of the device. At the same time, the absorbed signal still creates a "shadow" - a small response that can detect more advanced location systems. The task of our team was to "teach" objects not to reflect the signal, but to pass it through due to the incitement of the special state of electromagnetic fields," commented Alexey Basharin, project manager for NITU "MISS."

https://eurasiantimes.com/china-loo...h-fighter-jets-with-new-metamaterial-element/ "According to South China Morning Post, Professor Luo Xiangang and his colleagues at the Chengdu-based Institute of Optics and Electronics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, have created the world’s first-ever mathematical model which precisely describes the behavior of electromagnetic waves when they “strike a piece of metal engraved with microscopic patterns”.

As per a test conducted, the Metamaterials are aimed at making the aircraft, stealthier, lighter and cheaper to build, cut the strength of a reflected radar signal (measured in decibels) by between 10 and nearly 30dB in a frequency range from 0.3 to 40 gigahertz."


Requirement for RCS is what you can tradeoff. For example the US and Chinese fighter planes went with a fundamentally lower RCS planes with higher passive SA capabilities housed conformally in the fuselage in mind. On the other hand, the Russians opted for a more hard kill option, a DIRCM coupled with more active sensors such as the side facing radars and wing leading edge L-Band radars, higher kinematics capability. I've also said that it is a "different approach", by which I mean that it isn't something superior nor inferior. Different requirements and approach for the same goal ain't

I remember in the distant past the Su-57 was criticized for not using square exhaust nozzles for a lower infrared signature hence Su-57 fundamentally having less stealth, when the Russians introduced the same thing on their Su-27s but were disappointed with the thrust decrease that they opted for round nozzles and an aerosol solution that lowers their infrared signature for the exhaust 3 - 3.5 times, without sacrificing thrust.

1615072899612.png Don't even get me started with the ducts and other features, lets agree to disagree the admin created the Su-57 RCS thread for a reason from a Su-57 thread.

I should tell you one thing. The Japanese have already implemented photonic AESA radars for their P-1 few years ago. Sure, photonic radars give you SNR advantage among other things but I wouldn't buy into all those fancy numbers without a concrete context. Also, while Russia was lagging behind in AESA capabilities, Japan was the first country in the world to field AESA on their ship as well as their planes. To think that the west, especially those like Japan and the US are lagging behind in this field is, once more, delusional. If they aren't using it yet for fighter jets, there is a reason for it. In this case, not worth all the fuzz as of yet because the current analog back end being replaced with digital back end already gives significant leap. Thus going even further with technologies like fully digital array where every single TRM acts as one channel, dubbed TRC.

Do you have a source to support that the P-1 had a photonic radar because google search is not helping me? But if you dont think they are not lagging in this field I will make a couple of points regarding their photonic related projects?

1. Has Japan or the U.S. presented terahertz detection for airport security by having people walk through a 10 meter corridor?

2. Has Japan or the U.S. presented any 1hz to 100ghz wideband radar detection for airborne radars?

3. Has Japan or the U.S. presented any ground radar projects or plans of construction dates for them to operate in meter, decimeter, centimeter and millimeter waves.

4. Has Japan or the U.S. presented any submillimeter radars or radars that would work above 300 ghz in detection against miniature drones?

The same company is working on a radar shadowing technique to make detection easier for stealth, but we have yet to see how far they will get with that(The pentagon is probably praying they fail). So do those countries have any similar related projects mentioned from the 4 points above? I tried to find the P-1 source.

The US has seen more advantage in a refueling drone than the outright UCAVs and therefore changed its requirements for the UCLASS. They are opting for even higher levels of MUMT before actually using the UCAVs for such roles and as of now we could already see how this is turning out with their competition for the AI that is to be equipped on board of SKYBORG UCAVs.

To think that this "different pace" thing is actually the case at all is baffling. The US has been fielding various DIRCMs and has been researching photonic radars for years now. If anything, the Russians not being able to implement the works of Ufimtsev before the US only shows the capability of the US to capitalize on a theory for real world advantage and would even fit more to your narrative of "different pace in technology" favoring the US.

Yeah I guess it did look bad that the X-47B was cancelled and that the phantom ray drone is now doing refueling missions? Though I would like the U.S. to soon start testing air to air missiles for drones soon for better overall missions.

They have fielded DIRCM but not for 5th gens yet. and regarding photonic radars are there any such military developments? I see higher credibility with that in Russia than I do with the U.S. and Japan. Rather if they didn't implement Ufimtsev work new discoveries are already on the way in changing the battlefield as always.
 

Maro.Kyo

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Also meta materials ain't anything new. Moreover it is not just limited to signal reduction of aircrafts but could be implemented for a very wide range of technology starting from IR or acoustic signal reduction to application into sensors like single array multi-band radar or even LED display panels. To think that US is playing around not doing much in such field of useful technology is delusional, thus is incorrect.
Of course its nothing new but has to be further researched for better results, sort of like scramjets not going immediately into military operation when the kholod project was presented, all the way until the mid 2020s https://naukatehnika.com/anapol-novyij-metamaterial-dlya-stels-pokryitij.html "The international team of scientists from NITU "MISS" and the Polytechnic University of Turin (Italy) in cooperation on the project ANASTASIA proposed a fundamentally new version of stealth camouflage, which will allow the radar signal sent to the object not to be reflected, not absorbed, but simply to pass through, as if there is no object. This method of camouflage is not based on the creation of a concealer coating, but on the change of the configuration of the entire system of the object. "The stealth camouflage used today is far from perfect. Such coating is expensive, and for more efficient work it needs the most smooth surface - as a result, in aircraft, for example, have to sacrifice aerodynamic characteristics of the device. At the same time, the absorbed signal still creates a "shadow" - a small response that can detect more advanced location systems. The task of our team was to "teach" objects not to reflect the signal, but to pass it through due to the incitement of the special state of electromagnetic fields," commented Alexey Basharin, project manager for NITU "MISS."

https://eurasiantimes.com/china-loo...h-fighter-jets-with-new-metamaterial-element/ "According to South China Morning Post, Professor Luo Xiangang and his colleagues at the Chengdu-based Institute of Optics and Electronics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, have created the world’s first-ever mathematical model which precisely describes the behavior of electromagnetic waves when they “strike a piece of metal engraved with microscopic patterns”.

As per a test conducted, the Metamaterials are aimed at making the aircraft, stealthier, lighter and cheaper to build, cut the strength of a reflected radar signal (measured in decibels) by between 10 and nearly 30dB in a frequency range from 0.3 to 40 gigahertz."


Requirement for RCS is what you can tradeoff. For example the US and Chinese fighter planes went with a fundamentally lower RCS planes with higher passive SA capabilities housed conformally in the fuselage in mind. On the other hand, the Russians opted for a more hard kill option, a DIRCM coupled with more active sensors such as the side facing radars and wing leading edge L-Band radars, higher kinematics capability. I've also said that it is a "different approach", by which I mean that it isn't something superior nor inferior. Different requirements and approach for the same goal ain't

I remember in the distant past the Su-57 was criticized for not using square exhaust nozzles for a lower infrared signature hence Su-57 fundamentally having less stealth, when the Russians introduced the same thing on their Su-27s but were disappointed with the thrust decrease that they opted for round nozzles and an aerosol solution that lowers their infrared signature for the exhaust 3 - 3.5 times, without sacrificing thrust.

View attachment 652006 Don't even get me started with the ducts and other features, lets agree to disagree the admin created the Su-57 RCS thread for a reason from a Su-57 thread.

I should tell you one thing. The Japanese have already implemented photonic AESA radars for their P-1 few years ago. Sure, photonic radars give you SNR advantage among other things but I wouldn't buy into all those fancy numbers without a concrete context. Also, while Russia was lagging behind in AESA capabilities, Japan was the first country in the world to field AESA on their ship as well as their planes. To think that the west, especially those like Japan and the US are lagging behind in this field is, once more, delusional. If they aren't using it yet for fighter jets, there is a reason for it. In this case, not worth all the fuzz as of yet because the current analog back end being replaced with digital back end already gives significant leap. Thus going even further with technologies like fully digital array where every single TRM acts as one channel, dubbed TRC.

Do you have a source to support that the P-1 had a photonic radar because google search is not helping me? But if you dont think they are not lagging in this field I will make a couple of points regarding their photonic related projects?

1. Has Japan or the U.S. presented terahertz detection for airport security by having people walk through a 10 meter corridor?

2. Has Japan or the U.S. presented any 1hz to 100ghz wideband radar detection for airborne radars?

3. Has Japan or the U.S. presented any ground radar projects or plans of construction dates for them to operate in meter, decimeter, centimeter and millimeter waves.

4. Has Japan or the U.S. presented any submillimeter radars or radars that would work above 300 ghz in detection against miniature drones?

The same company is working on a radar shadowing technique to make detection easier for stealth, but we have yet to see how far they will get with that(The pentagon is probably praying they fail). So do those countries have any similar related projects mentioned from the 4 points above? I tried to find the P-1 source.

The US has seen more advantage in a refueling drone than the outright UCAVs and therefore changed its requirements for the UCLASS. They are opting for even higher levels of MUMT before actually using the UCAVs for such roles and as of now we could already see how this is turning out with their competition for the AI that is to be equipped on board of SKYBORG UCAVs.

To think that this "different pace" thing is actually the case at all is baffling. The US has been fielding various DIRCMs and has been researching photonic radars for years now. If anything, the Russians not being able to implement the works of Ufimtsev before the US only shows the capability of the US to capitalize on a theory for real world advantage and would even fit more to your narrative of "different pace in technology" favoring the US.

Yeah I guess it did look bad that the X-47B was cancelled and that the phantom ray drone is now doing refueling missions? Though I would like the U.S. to soon start testing air to air missiles for drones soon for better overall missions.

They have fielded DIRCM but not for 5th gens yet. and regarding photonic radars are there any such military developments? I see higher credibility with that in Russia than I do with the U.S. and Japan. Rather if they didn't implement Ufimtsev work new discoveries are already on the way in changing the battlefield as always.

Wow you are really doing your work giving me all those starwman arguments about something that I didn't really argue about aren't ya? I don't give two sh.. if someone has claimed Su-57 to be flawed or not, because that was not what I have been arguing for.

Also for the other counter arguments you are giving me, firstly, like I've said, comeback when all those fancy techs are already fielded and are being operated. Secondly, as you have said "I see higher credibility with that in Russia than I do with the U.S. and Japan. Rather if they didn't implement Ufimtsev work new discoveries are already on the way in changing the battlefield as always.", does it hold any meaning for me to find the sources to back my arguments up? You're basically demanding me sources to back my arguments up while in the same time saying you don't give a damn if I do find them or not because it is of no value for you anyways. If anything, that is a very flawed way of discussing things.

Last but not least, you seem to realize that you are derailing the thread since the original post of yours, mentioning all these unrelated Russian yada yada but are demanding others to stop and go to other threads for it. Well I suggest it to be otherwise. You first should not bring anything that is not related to TF-X to this thread, then ask for such.

I mean to think about, I am expecting too much from someone that thinks Russia, who has been in an abysmal economic disaster just before and after the collapse of USSR and moreover was already behind in terms of electronics technology during the cold wars, to be actually ahead of the like of US and Japan, especially the US, who have been leading this field of technology for the past decades and absorbing all the brightest academics and researches from around the globe. Any sane man with basic education about how development of technologies work will not argue such.


I should thank you for one thing though, as I have searched once more about the photonic radar on P-1 and have found out that it was a translation mistake. You are right in fact, that Japan has not deployed any photonic radar as of yet, which in other words mean that no one has deployed such technology for now.

Back to the topic.
 
Last edited:

tequilashooter

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Also meta materials ain't anything new. Moreover it is not just limited to signal reduction of aircrafts but could be implemented for a very wide range of technology starting from IR or acoustic signal reduction to application into sensors like single array multi-band radar or even LED display panels. To think that US is playing around not doing much in such field of useful technology is delusional, thus is incorrect.
Of course its nothing new but has to be further researched for better results, sort of like scramjets not going immediately into military operation when the kholod project was presented, all the way until the mid 2020s https://naukatehnika.com/anapol-novyij-metamaterial-dlya-stels-pokryitij.html "The international team of scientists from NITU "MISS" and the Polytechnic University of Turin (Italy) in cooperation on the project ANASTASIA proposed a fundamentally new version of stealth camouflage, which will allow the radar signal sent to the object not to be reflected, not absorbed, but simply to pass through, as if there is no object. This method of camouflage is not based on the creation of a concealer coating, but on the change of the configuration of the entire system of the object. "The stealth camouflage used today is far from perfect. Such coating is expensive, and for more efficient work it needs the most smooth surface - as a result, in aircraft, for example, have to sacrifice aerodynamic characteristics of the device. At the same time, the absorbed signal still creates a "shadow" - a small response that can detect more advanced location systems. The task of our team was to "teach" objects not to reflect the signal, but to pass it through due to the incitement of the special state of electromagnetic fields," commented Alexey Basharin, project manager for NITU "MISS."

https://eurasiantimes.com/china-loo...h-fighter-jets-with-new-metamaterial-element/ "According to South China Morning Post, Professor Luo Xiangang and his colleagues at the Chengdu-based Institute of Optics and Electronics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, have created the world’s first-ever mathematical model which precisely describes the behavior of electromagnetic waves when they “strike a piece of metal engraved with microscopic patterns”.

As per a test conducted, the Metamaterials are aimed at making the aircraft, stealthier, lighter and cheaper to build, cut the strength of a reflected radar signal (measured in decibels) by between 10 and nearly 30dB in a frequency range from 0.3 to 40 gigahertz."


Requirement for RCS is what you can tradeoff. For example the US and Chinese fighter planes went with a fundamentally lower RCS planes with higher passive SA capabilities housed conformally in the fuselage in mind. On the other hand, the Russians opted for a more hard kill option, a DIRCM coupled with more active sensors such as the side facing radars and wing leading edge L-Band radars, higher kinematics capability. I've also said that it is a "different approach", by which I mean that it isn't something superior nor inferior. Different requirements and approach for the same goal ain't

I remember in the distant past the Su-57 was criticized for not using square exhaust nozzles for a lower infrared signature hence Su-57 fundamentally having less stealth, when the Russians introduced the same thing on their Su-27s but were disappointed with the thrust decrease that they opted for round nozzles and an aerosol solution that lowers their infrared signature for the exhaust 3 - 3.5 times, without sacrificing thrust.

View attachment 652006 Don't even get me started with the ducts and other features, lets agree to disagree the admin created the Su-57 RCS thread for a reason from a Su-57 thread.

I should tell you one thing. The Japanese have already implemented photonic AESA radars for their P-1 few years ago. Sure, photonic radars give you SNR advantage among other things but I wouldn't buy into all those fancy numbers without a concrete context. Also, while Russia was lagging behind in AESA capabilities, Japan was the first country in the world to field AESA on their ship as well as their planes. To think that the west, especially those like Japan and the US are lagging behind in this field is, once more, delusional. If they aren't using it yet for fighter jets, there is a reason for it. In this case, not worth all the fuzz as of yet because the current analog back end being replaced with digital back end already gives significant leap. Thus going even further with technologies like fully digital array where every single TRM acts as one channel, dubbed TRC.

Do you have a source to support that the P-1 had a photonic radar because google search is not helping me? But if you dont think they are not lagging in this field I will make a couple of points regarding their photonic related projects?

1. Has Japan or the U.S. presented terahertz detection for airport security by having people walk through a 10 meter corridor?

2. Has Japan or the U.S. presented any 1hz to 100ghz wideband radar detection for airborne radars?

3. Has Japan or the U.S. presented any ground radar projects or plans of construction dates for them to operate in meter, decimeter, centimeter and millimeter waves.

4. Has Japan or the U.S. presented any submillimeter radars or radars that would work above 300 ghz in detection against miniature drones?

The same company is working on a radar shadowing technique to make detection easier for stealth, but we have yet to see how far they will get with that(The pentagon is probably praying they fail). So do those countries have any similar related projects mentioned from the 4 points above? I tried to find the P-1 source.

The US has seen more advantage in a refueling drone than the outright UCAVs and therefore changed its requirements for the UCLASS. They are opting for even higher levels of MUMT before actually using the UCAVs for such roles and as of now we could already see how this is turning out with their competition for the AI that is to be equipped on board of SKYBORG UCAVs.

To think that this "different pace" thing is actually the case at all is baffling. The US has been fielding various DIRCMs and has been researching photonic radars for years now. If anything, the Russians not being able to implement the works of Ufimtsev before the US only shows the capability of the US to capitalize on a theory for real world advantage and would even fit more to your narrative of "different pace in technology" favoring the US.

Yeah I guess it did look bad that the X-47B was cancelled and that the phantom ray drone is now doing refueling missions? Though I would like the U.S. to soon start testing air to air missiles for drones soon for better overall missions.

They have fielded DIRCM but not for 5th gens yet. and regarding photonic radars are there any such military developments? I see higher credibility with that in Russia than I do with the U.S. and Japan. Rather if they didn't implement Ufimtsev work new discoveries are already on the way in changing the battlefield as always.

Wow you are really doing your work giving me all those starwman arguments about something that I didn't really argue about aren't ya? I don't give two sh.. if someone has claimed Su-57 to be flawed or not, because that was not what I have been arguing for.

Also for the other counter arguments you are giving me, firstly, like I've said, comeback when all those fancy techs are already fielded and are being operated. Secondly, as you have said "I see higher credibility with that in Russia than I do with the U.S. and Japan. Rather if they didn't implement Ufimtsev work new discoveries are already on the way in changing the battlefield as always.", does it hold any meaning for me to find the sources to back my arguments up? You're basically demanding me sources to back my arguments up while in the same time saying you don't give a damn if I do find them or not because it is of no value for you anyways. If anything, that is a very flawed way of discussing things.

Last but not least, you seem to realize that you are derailing the thread since the original post of yours, mentioning all these unrelated Russian yada yada but are demanding others to stop and go to other threads for it. Well I suggest it to be otherwise. You first should not bring anything that is not related to TF-X to this thread, then ask for such.

I mean to think about, I am expecting too much from someone that thinks Russia, who has been in an abysmal economic disaster just before and after the collapse of USSR and moreover was already behind in terms of electronics technology during the cold wars, to be actually ahead of the like of US and Japan, especially the US, who have been leading this field of technology for the past decades and absorbing all the brightest academics and researches from around the globe. Any sane man with basic education about how development of technologies work will not argue such.


I should thank you for one thing though, as I have searched once more about the photonic radar on P-1 and have found out that it was a translation mistake. You are right in fact, that Japan has not deployed any photonic radar as of yet, which in other words mean that no one has deployed such technology for now.

Back to the topic.

Hold up, I only brought up the Su-57 for users to please not bring in repeated jump the gun criticism on the TFX. Everyones issue here is just the timeframe of the aircraft. There was criticism on a 5th gen aircraft for having a forward antenna, which we saw later removed. Just asking users to be fair.

Well yeah, I do not want a repeat of the aircraft being bashed as insulting the country's pursuit.

Here is the photonic discussion I included you https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/photonic-integrated-circuits-and-radar-developement.32576/
 
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The "BVR" missile is a bit narrow diameter for such type. It looks more like a lengthened variant of the WVR with a radar sensor.
 

helmutkohl

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The "BVR" missile is a bit narrow diameter for such type. It looks more like a lengthened variant of the WVR with a radar sensor.
i forgot which one but wasn't there another missile family that was like that..
mostly same body, just different sensors for WVR and BVR?
I think it was the Mica? or was it the Derby?
 

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The "BVR" missile is a bit narrow diameter for such type. It looks more like a lengthened variant of the WVR with a radar sensor.
i forgot which one but wasn't there another missile family that was like that..
mostly same body, just different sensors for WVR and BVR?
I think it was the Mica? or was it the Derby?
Mica is exactly that, though the Turkish BVR missile has clearly a different dimention to their WVR missiles unlike the MICA.
 

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Speaking at a ceremony organized at TUSAŞ facilities to celebrate the delivery of first T129B2 ATAK Helicopter to the Security General Directorate (Turkish Police) on February 26, 2021 TUSAŞ President & CEO Temel KOTİL disclosed that HÜRJET prototype will perform its maiden flight in December 2022, after the completion of the detailed design, prototype production and ground testing phases. While talking to TRT Radio 1 at the National and Domestic Program on December 4, 2020 TUSAŞ President & CEO KOTİL had previously underlined that the first HÜRJET prototype would execute its maiden flight on March 18, 2023, when the 108th anniversary of the Çanakkale Naval Victory will be celebrated.

HÜRJET is being developed by TUSAŞ under a Protocol signed between TUSAŞ, the SSB and the TurAF on July 2, 2018. The initial studies for the “Advanced Jet Trainer & Light Attack Aircraft (HÜRJET) Project” were started in July 2017 and the Project was officially launched on 14 August 2017, as a company funded project (which was funded from TUSAŞ’ own resources) after receiving a green light to go ahead from the TUSAŞ Board.

The Conceptual Design Phase (CDP) of the HÜRJET Project was completed in April 2018, according to original schedule the Preliminary Design Review (PDR) Phase activities should have been completed in February 2019 (To+18 months), Critical Design Review (CDR) Phase should have been completed in August 2020 (To+36 months) and the Test Readiness Review (TRR) Phase should have been completed in August 2021 (To+48 months). However due to the internal and external reasons this schedule could not be kept. The PDR Phase could only be completed in July 2020. Within the scope of the PDR Phase, TUSAŞ engineers have carried out several wind tunnel tests including Static Wind Tunnel Tests, Air Intake Wind Tunnel Test and Low Speed Wind Tunnel Test with HÜRJET’s 1/10 scaled model to confirm the existing configuration. The HÜRJET model that underwent the initial wind tunnel tests was configured in accordance with GE’s F404-GE-102 turbofan engine.

Following the signing of a Letter of Intent (LoI) between TUSAŞ and Eurojet Turbo GmbH for the delivery of EJ200 turbofan engines the design of the HÜRJET was modified (such as, the air intakes were revised and enlarged to accommodate the more powerful EJ200 engine) and further wind tunnel tests have been carried out to confirm revisions on the aircraft overall design. So currently HÜRJET has two separate designs in accordance with two different engine options. According to our sources the HÜRJET will be powered by the F404-GE-102 engine from GE. Under the project two prototypes will be manufactured. According to project schedule the 1st HÜRJET prototype would be rolled-out in December 2021 and to perform its maiden flight in February 2022 (To+60 months), the 2nd HÜRJET prototype, on the other hand, is planned to perform its maiden flight in August 2022 (To+64 months) but this schedule seems to could not be accomplished.

.....

 

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A lot of new infos which are great, but in the same time this article is a damn mess.

In the article it says "The Critical Design Review (CDR) Phase of the HÜRJET [...] was completed in early March 2021. According to original schedule the CDR Phase should have been completed in August 2020 (To+36 months)."

Then it continues to mention "[...] on February 26, 2021 TUSAŞ President & CEO Temel KOTİL disclosed that HÜRJET prototype will perform its maiden flight in December 2022, after the completion of the detailed design, prototype production and ground testing phases. While talking to TRT Radio 1 at the National and Domestic Program on December 4, 2020 TUSAŞ President & CEO KOTİL had previously underlined that the first HÜRJET prototype would execute its maiden flight on March 18, 2023, when the 108th anniversary of the Çanakkale Naval Victory will be celebrated."

Which makes zero friggin sense. You delay your PDR, CDR but are now actually ahead with the maiden flight schedule? What in earth does this mean?

Then I've continued reading and got to the point where its mentioned "According to project schedule the 1st HÜRJET prototype would be rolled-out in December 2021 and to perform its maiden flight in February 2022 (To+60 months), the 2nd HÜRJET prototype, on the other hand, is planned to perform its maiden flight in August 2022 (To+64 months) but this schedule seems to could not be accomplished".

Now that makes sense. That "project schedule" is probably what that would have been published in 2017 when the project was officially started, akin to what TAI made public in 2018 when they officially started the development of the TF-X. So it is reasonable to think that the original plan was to do CDR by August 2020, which has been delayed to March 2020, therefore the first flight which was planned for February 2022 has been delayed to December 2022.


I don't think that this contradiction within the article is to blame the reporter who wrote this but his sources of information, which in this case is TAI and Temel Kotil. This is exactly the problem with anything Turkish. How come does, not anyone else, but a President & CEO of TAI mess these dates up? I get where that date of March 2023 comes from but in the broader context now it makes zero sense. Furthermore, this ain't the problem that is limited to only Temel Kotil. As I have stated countless times, the guys from SSB, guys from TEI, guys from TAI and other Turkish firms talk about some different schedule way too often, as if they are working with different projects. Before doing any PR works and interviews, the Turkish officials should all first sort out these hot mess of contradicting timelines and come up with something unified.


Lastly, as written in the article, the Hurjet will be "Turkey’s first indigenously developed supersonic aircraft that will pave the way for the MMU/TF-X".

Now we have to remember the news from earlier this year that the CDR of TF-X has been greatly accelerated and the CDR that was planned for late 2022~early 2023 has been brought forward to early 2022.

This speaks of a lot of things. If the knowledge gained from Hurjet were really that important for the TF-X program, delays of the Hurjet development should have affected the development of TF-X as well but in reality it was the exact opposite. Hurjet delayed while TF-X accelerated. This obviously makes no sense because, just like written in the article, the Hurjet is supposed to be the "first Turkish developed supersonic aircraft" and only gives me even more confidence to assume BAE is doing most of the work for TF-X, doing their job for the money they've been paid from Turkey. It also makes sense now why the Brits are so enthusiastic working in this project as well.

What further backs my opinion is the excerpt from the article :

"Stirling Dynamics of the UK announced that they secured a new contract from TUSAŞ to provide technical assistance in the areas of loads and aeroelastics for the HÜRJET aircraft program. This contract builds on previous support provided by Stirling Dynamics, which was initial consultancy to support TUSAŞ up to the HÜRJET’s Preliminary Design Review (PDR). Under the new contract, Stirling Dynamics will support TUSAŞ’ engineering team as they work towards Critical Design Review (CDR). Stirling Dynamics’ engineers will provide support in several formats involving training and guidance, expert review, and off-site work packages. Technical areas of interest include flight and gust loads, buffet, flutter, and validation testing."

This only translates into "Turkey lacks expertise in designing supersonic aircraft, so they need help in this regard". There's no wonder and its fairly straight forward.
 

Bhurki

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Can we stop ths back and forth, and speculations?

Posting only when specific milestones (like actual procurement/r&d contracts for hurjet and tfx, first metal cut, first flight etc) are reached will be better for the thread.
 

Maro.Kyo

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Can we stop ths back and forth, and speculations?

Posting only when specific milestones (like actual procurement/r&d contracts for hurjet and tfx, first metal cut, first flight etc) are reached will be better for the thread.
Well, this one was exactly that, a CDR milestone and the clarification of its revised development schedule.
 

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Not directly TFX related, but you can get a sense of nationalization efforts Turkey is going through with development of Air-to-Air missiles.

View: https://twitter.com/SageTubitak/status/1215609010382102529?s=20


Nearing the end of testing, Turkey's F-16 flying with Turkish made WVR and BVR air-to-air missiles -
View attachment 652043

Development continues for ramjet powered air-to-air missile.

Graphic of a Ramjet powered BVR air-to-air missile being developed
1615205135646.png

And a mock-up of a very short-range WVR air-to-air missile, likely this will be equipped upon unmanned/rotary aircraft
1615205091024.png
 
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TUSAS have purchased an Additive Manufacturing machine which can print 6 meters squared parts in a vacuum. This machine will be used to print titanium bulkheads of TFX. - Source Temel Kotil
 

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dang its like they are serious about this 5th gen project. Only issues left i am assuming are engines than flight tests if everything else is covered.
 

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So, when it's gonna be flight tested ?

AESA radar for Turkish F-16 modernisation project currently being flight tested and is reported to be at-least equivalent to Northrop Grumman's AN/APG-83. Turkey is using GAN transistors in their AESA radars. Completion by 2022

Status of BURFIS AESA radar for TFX is currently not released, but it will likely follow after development of F-16 AESA radar is completed. Completion by 2026
 
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Turkish Aerospace & TRMOTOR Signs Protocol for the Development of MMU`s Power Units

The APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) and ATSS (Air Turbine Start System) solutions to be required in the National Combat Aircraft, which is planned to be rolled out in 2023, will be achieved with this agreement and a critical milestone in the MMU project will be accomplished.

 

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" Russia is ready for holding negotiations with Turkey on the possible delivery of Su-35 and Su-57 fighter aircraft, if it receives the corresponding request, Spokesperson for Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Valeria Reshetnikova said on Friday.

"As for Ankara’s potential plans of purchasing Russian Su-35 and Su-57 fighters, it should be noted that the Turkish side has been informed about their technical specifications in full. If there is a request from Turkey for these planes, we are ready for negotiations on this issue," the spokesperson said.

"The Turkish side has for quite long stated its intention to implement the project of developing its own TF-X fifth-generation fighter. Russia earlier indicated that it was ready to consider the possibility of cooperation under this program. However, we have not received the corresponding request from Ankara so far," Reshetnikova added."


Man those two countries have a very weird relationship. But I guess they do have a available lifeline if worst comes to worst on the programs development. It sounds like they continue getting a little closer https://tass.com/defense/1280693 thus creating a growing headache for NATO.
 

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" Russia is ready for holding negotiations with Turkey on the possible delivery of Su-35 and Su-57 fighter aircraft, if it receives the corresponding request, Spokesperson for Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Valeria Reshetnikova said on Friday.

"As for Ankara’s potential plans of purchasing Russian Su-35 and Su-57 fighters, it should be noted that the Turkish side has been informed about their technical specifications in full. If there is a request from Turkey for these planes, we are ready for negotiations on this issue," the spokesperson said.

"The Turkish side has for quite long stated its intention to implement the project of developing its own TF-X fifth-generation fighter. Russia earlier indicated that it was ready to consider the possibility of cooperation under this program. However, we have not received the corresponding request from Ankara so far," Reshetnikova added."


Man those two countries have a very weird relationship. But I guess they do have a available lifeline if worst comes to worst on the programs development. It sounds like they continue getting a little closer https://tass.com/defense/1280693 thus creating a growing headache for NATO.

I don't know how serious this relationship can go.
Turkey and Russia might be lovey dovey in some areas
but they're also on opposing sides in other areas, such as Syria, too.
not sure how willing Russia is actually going to give their best fighter, to a country they could still potentially fight with.
 

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" Russia is ready for holding negotiations with Turkey on the possible delivery of Su-35 and Su-57 fighter aircraft, if it receives the corresponding request, Spokesperson for Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Valeria Reshetnikova said on Friday.

"As for Ankara’s potential plans of purchasing Russian Su-35 and Su-57 fighters, it should be noted that the Turkish side has been informed about their technical specifications in full. If there is a request from Turkey for these planes, we are ready for negotiations on this issue," the spokesperson said.

"The Turkish side has for quite long stated its intention to implement the project of developing its own TF-X fifth-generation fighter. Russia earlier indicated that it was ready to consider the possibility of cooperation under this program. However, we have not received the corresponding request from Ankara so far," Reshetnikova added."


Man those two countries have a very weird relationship. But I guess they do have a available lifeline if worst comes to worst on the programs development. It sounds like they continue getting a little closer https://tass.com/defense/1280693 thus creating a growing headache for NATO.

I don't know how serious this relationship can go.
Turkey and Russia might be lovey dovey in some areas
but they're also on opposing sides in other areas, such as Syria, too.
not sure how willing Russia is actually going to give their best fighter, to a country they could still potentially fight with.

It could be a likely scenario, depending on air superiority in the region. Greece is being gifted Rafales and possibility of sales of F-35s. As a stop gap, Turkey could go Russian as 'NATO Allies' are making the inner circles more pronounced.
 

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" Russia is ready for holding negotiations with Turkey on the possible delivery of Su-35 and Su-57 fighter aircraft, if it receives the corresponding request, Spokesperson for Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Valeria Reshetnikova said on Friday.

"As for Ankara’s potential plans of purchasing Russian Su-35 and Su-57 fighters, it should be noted that the Turkish side has been informed about their technical specifications in full. If there is a request from Turkey for these planes, we are ready for negotiations on this issue," the spokesperson said.

"The Turkish side has for quite long stated its intention to implement the project of developing its own TF-X fifth-generation fighter. Russia earlier indicated that it was ready to consider the possibility of cooperation under this program. However, we have not received the corresponding request from Ankara so far," Reshetnikova added."


Man those two countries have a very weird relationship. But I guess they do have a available lifeline if worst comes to worst on the programs development. It sounds like they continue getting a little closer https://tass.com/defense/1280693 thus creating a growing headache for NATO.

I don't know how serious this relationship can go.
Turkey and Russia might be lovey dovey in some areas
but they're also on opposing sides in other areas, such as Syria, too.
not sure how willing Russia is actually going to give their best fighter, to a country they could still potentially fight with.

It could be a likely scenario, depending on air superiority in the region. Greece is being gifted Rafales and possibility of sales of F-35s. As a stop gap, Turkey could go Russian as 'NATO Allies' are making the inner circles more pronounced.
but Russia is generally friendly to both Greece and Egypt.
Also Turkey and Russia are nearly enemies when it comes to Syria and Libya because they support rival sides.
and they are both competing for influence in the Caucasus.
 

tequilashooter

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I think it is more profit related. For example everyone is bashing about the aircraft receiving engines or not. I don't see the issue of just selling izdelie 30s to gain profit if Valeria is correct. They are already talking about getting a 2nd batch of S-400s so it's not like they will cooperate with NATO further at this point with the project.
 
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