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Turkish TFX National Combat Aircraft

mrmalaya

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r16, one point I can help with, out of the few above.

The lack of fanfare (or even reporting) of this deal in the UK is due in large part to a press embargo on political stories in the run up to the UK election. Basically, announcements that reflect on the performance of the government cannot be reported until after the election on June the 8th -so that the current government cannot make political capital out of them.

That is my take on it anyway.
 

Trident

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mrmalaya said:
The lack of fanfare (or even reporting) of this deal in the UK is due in large part to a press embargo on political stories in the run up to the UK election. Basically, announcements that reflect on the performance of the government cannot be reported until after the election on June the 8th -so that the current government cannot make political capital out of them.

That is my take on it anyway.
Is there really such a thing, and this long before the election date?

My view is that it's simply too specialized a topic and at too early a stage to make a blip on the mainstream media's radar. Alternatively, if you will pardon a political opinion, I suspect there may be a suspicion in some quarters that it would not sit well with a large portion of the pro-Brexit camp. After all the (almost completely unfounded) fear-mongering over Turkey being let into the EU, sharing sensitive military IP might come across as a bit of an about-face. I realize that they've been a NATO partner for decades and are acquiring F-35s, but I doubt such arguments would convince those parts of the British general public.
 

TomS

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It's not a press restriction, it's a restriction on government announcements of major initiatives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purdah_(pre-election_period)

I doubt this would count, given that BAE is a private company. Mostly, as you say, it's just not that newsworthy for general audiences.
 

mrmalaya

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Well its a restriction of news which is given to the press by the government if you want to be exact eh?

An example I have experience of.... a museum I volunteer at, can't announce whether it has won funding from the government for redevelopment until after the election.

In the UK, the government (of whatever colour) will make something of even the smallest success, so a huge international industrial deal (signed off by the PM and other ministers) that actually fits the "We will have to forge our own path outside of Europe" post Brexit narrative, is certainly something they will make political capital out of.
 

r16

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thank you , now that this has also passed the test of survival .

previous posts deleted again, as not related to the topic, warning issued
 

r16

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1-RR invites GE to clear up the mess , act as an umpire and stuff

2-to that end the engine grows back to Mach 2.6 Cruiser class so that RR can invoke joint effort on F-136 or whatever and buy some spares from GE

3-no dice , hence today's newspaper has it that GE opposes growth of Turkish industry and can lose some helicopter contract

4-no worries though as RR has not given any contracts out yet , especially to those friends it has

5-and naturally Turkish engineers can take their know-how out , develop that engine on their own and come back

6-ı don't know why , now that the entire factory they work in was specifically made to gain independence in the mood hardened after the 1975 American arms embargo

7-but then it's not over even now , newspaper tells GE that it covets that programme , has appetite for it

8-such marketing ploy ; when an helicopter crashed years back with the leader of a political party onboard all the TV channels blared he was alive but wounded on his way to hospital , though nobody had yet reached the crash site

9-such reluctance does not become RR . People here love independence and courage
 

r16

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and sure enough it somehow appears the BAE finds the going rough , but is holding on . Russians , optimists as always now are just in , but the company account says it ain't no fighter but ground attack . Just what happened to F-35 , again ?

and of course , that "We didn't hear it!" is no longer the excuse it used to be ...
 

mrmalaya

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I agree about the RAF service bit- unless it undergoes a thorough redesign into an aircraft that will be worthy successor to Typhoon in terms of performance and propulsion. Currently it looks like an attempt to make a stealthy F16 successor which is not the same thing.
 

red admiral

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Seems pretty unlikely for the RAF to buy something that's probably worse than F-35 and would probably end up being more expensive.

Is the UK really going to give up design and build of its own combat aircraft with all of the operational sovereignty and economic benefits that it entails?
 

bring_it_on

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Is the UK really going to give up design and build of its own combat aircraft with all of the operational sovereignty and economic benefits that it entails?
Partnership is a great way for them to focus resources and maintain capability. They did it on the Typhoon and the F-35 program. Although i don't expect them to pursue this route with Turkey, but it could certainly be looked as a model to replace the Typhoon down the road with European or US partnership. Unless the RAF successfully gets approval to secure funding for 200-300 aircraft, there is very little sense in a sole Britain funded program.
 

Mach42

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red admiral said:
Seems pretty unlikely for the RAF to buy something that's probably worse than F-35 and would probably end up being more expensive.

Is the UK really going to give up design and build of its own combat aircraft with all of the operational sovereignty and economic benefits that it entails?
What if Turkey lets the UK do whatever it wants with the TF-X platform but in exchange asks the UK to agree to not export the UK-fied TF-X. So BAE can change subsystems like the Radar and source parts in the UK and manufacture mostly in the UK but not sell it to Saudi Arabia, only Turkey gets to export in cooperation with BAE.

Were exports a big argument for the EF program as an offset of the development costs? Or a matter of national pride? Would a post-brexit, F-35 operating UK care about not being able to export their own fighter?
 

GTX

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Hood said:
Still not sure what prospects this has on the export market and hopes of seeing it in RAF use are probably widely optimistic.
I would say its chances on both counts is nil.
 

r16

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ah , there is no shaking off some people . They have lost this imaginary Middle Eastern market with the Qatari crisis and what happens ? Oh yeah , Ankara has saved Qatar from invasion and there will be gratitude shown in all fields ...
 

muttbutt

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A question, this is a sizable technological but also financial undertaking, the Turkish economy is on an iffy footing now...are we sure they can even afford to bring this to production?
 

mrmalaya

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It only works for the UK future fighter requirement if it has a genuinely advanced propulsion system with UK content, a UK designed airframe and the ability to use UK systems where required. In turn, Turkey gets to up it's not insubstantial technological manufacturing base and operate a genuinely high end system.

The problem with that is, they only want to make a stealthy F16 replacement and get benefit from that journey, rather than push propulsion, airframe and systems development much beyond the current technology.
 

bring_it_on

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RDT&E cost is also a major factor here. How much did Britain spend as its contribution for Typhoon and F-35 R&D? Any advanced, manned, high performance next generation fighter will require tens of billions of Euros to develop, test and field. This requires a decade (or two) of budget and political stability in terms of steady funding. I don't think Turkey is going to carry the burden of the R&D bill for a true Next Generation high end fighter development.

For a 200-250 aircraft fleet you could well be looking at R&D expenditure of $100-120 Million per unit if not more, if one wants to pursue a truly leap ahead system compared to say the F-35, or F-22.
 

Hood

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I don't think the sums add up given Eurofighter and Tornado took four and three major European economic nations respectively and the F-35 has the US behind it. On the other hand France managed Rafale alone and Turkey seems to be churning out land/air/sea weapon systems and South Korea feels it can go it alone with a 5th generation fighter too.

BAE is helping with the design but the British government (as far as we know) hasn't committed to any kind of joint R&D programme. I still think BAE is being pragmatic here, getting paid and keeping its engineers busy until something more juicy comes along or the next design contract. I'm surprised they haven't been all over the UAE and Korean programmes too.

As an F-16 replacement a twin-engine large design like these seems counter-intuitive in terms of costs (acquisition and running costs) and the F-35 has a huge advantage in terms of exports already. TFX might appeal to those nations the US wouldn't export to, but then the UK government probably wouldn't want BAE's intellectual property going to those nations either, or stealing any last gasp Eurofighter contracts.
 

bring_it_on

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As an F-16 replacement a twin-engine large design like these seems counter-intuitive in terms of costs (acquisition and running costs) and the F-35 has a huge advantage in terms of exports already. TFX might appeal to those nations the US wouldn't export to, but then the UK government probably wouldn't want BAE's intellectual property going to those nations either, or stealing any last gasp Eurofighter contracts.
Don't forget the Chinese are going to be large aerospace and defense sector players when it comes to exporting fighter aircraft in the 2020s, 30s and beyond. The 'unable to buy US', or "unable to afford US/Western equipment' customer would have 4th, and 5th generation alternatives to Russian products.
 

Hood

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bring_it_on said:
Don't forget the Chinese are going to be large aerospace and defense sector players when it comes to exporting fighter aircraft in the 2020s, 30s and beyond. The 'unable to buy US', or "unable to afford US/Western equipment' customer would have 4th, and 5th generation alternatives to Russian products.
I'm not so sure, the Chinese sold lots of F-7s but they were MiG-21 clones and cheaper replacements for Soviet-made gear. African nations have brought Chinese helicopters and light transports (Z-9 Dauphin copies and Y-11) but only in small numbers, the Hongdu L-15s acquired by Zambia are perhaps the most modern equipment sold to African nations so far. The JF-17 has only been sold to the usual reliable customers, Pakistan and Myanmar, despite lots of interest over the last decade. The fact selling non-Western spec JF-17s has been so hard probably means more expensive and advanced Chinese fighters are not likely to prosper either. I don't see a massive export marker for 4+ or 5th generation fighters beyond Europe and the Middle East.
 

NUSNA_Moebius

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Hood said:
I don't think the sums add up given Eurofighter and Tornado took four and three major European economic nations respectively and the F-35 has the US behind it. On the other hand France managed Rafale alone and Turkey seems to be churning out land/air/sea weapon systems and South Korea feels it can go it alone with a 5th generation fighter too.

BAE is helping with the design but the British government (as far as we know) hasn't committed to any kind of joint R&D programme. I still think BAE is being pragmatic here, getting paid and keeping its engineers busy until something more juicy comes along or the next design contract. I'm surprised they haven't been all over the UAE and Korean programmes too.

As an F-16 replacement a twin-engine large design like these seems counter-intuitive in terms of costs (acquisition and running costs) and the F-35 has a huge advantage in terms of exports already. TFX might appeal to those nations the US wouldn't export to, but then the UK government probably wouldn't want BAE's intellectual property going to those nations either, or stealing any last gasp Eurofighter contracts.
I'd hate to think how much money is wasted in the Euro-beaurocracy of inter-country communication and negotiation of who gets to perform what role in these large scale aerospace projects. It almost seems the notion of spread out costs of development always end up getting wasted because of delays and problems leading to more cost over runs.

At least with the TFX, there are a number of already in service technologies that can be immediately used for the program depending on the scope, like the EJ200 engine, and all the technological wizardry the Brits have at their disposal. That pretty much just leaves capabilities and the airframe to be figured out. Let Turkey be the financier along with some input into airframe requirements, but let the UK do the heavy lifting of development, then spread production out between the two countries, with two production lines, and agreements about how exports will be handled.
 

Mach42

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An EOTS? Turkish AF ROC calls for A-G?
 

r16

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they should be lookin' like doin' somethin' , so it will walk on the water .
 

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Seems only natural. They plan to replace most of their F-16s with the TFX. Since F-16s are multirole, it is logical requirements for TFX are also for a multirole plane. Turkey's AF is big, but not superpower big - and even biggest of air forces are relying less and less on non-multirole planes.
 

r16

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it's part of the 21st Century variety country that does everything better than the previous edition . Within the last decade they were on the verge of banning the very word Turkish on any official paper or documentation . Failed to gain enough traction in the Middle East and while overtly political if you will , it's actually the truth . The Western "muted" reaction is likewise in that direction , with so many bidders to make one . In extreme contrast to the past . So , while we are being spared the Party and company trolls as of late , it's the awesomest plane ever conceived . Takes F-35 to a date , while having an affair with the PAK-FA .
 

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Japanese renders seem to show actual model evolution.

are we sure these TFX renders show actual design proposals or are they just artist's own renditions?

If they're actual design - then we're looking at almost the same design. :D (roughly speaking) What remains to be seen is what weight class and engine class would each use. I have a feeling japanese are leaning more towards f119 class engines which turkey may be content with something just a bit more powerful than EJ200, for example - leading to a bit smaller plane overall.
 

mrmalaya

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I am of the opinion that these images are so much artwork, because they have remained largely the same since before the BAE got involved.
 

Mach42

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totoro said:
Seems only natural. They plan to replace most of their F-16s with the TFX. Since F-16s are multirole, it is logical requirements for TFX are also for a multirole plane. Turkey's AF is big, but not superpower big - and even biggest of air forces are relying less and less on non-multirole planes.
Multirole is great but a stealthy multirole configuration will cause the aircraft to get larger and more expensive.
 

stimpy75

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So from what I have read online and in the defence magazines (savunma ve havacilik I.e Defence&Aeropsace) R.R is offering a derivative of the EJ200 with 25% more thrust and another version with 30% more thrust. The last one is physically bigger and won’t fit in the Eurofighter. But that won’t be a problem for TFX
These last images i have shared are officially from TAI and from the Turkish Defence Agency but how much
the end product will look like? Well we have to wait a little bit more.
 

Deltafan

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"Rolls-Royce and Turkey’s defense procurement agency have signed a letter of intent to finalize negotiations by July 31 on an engine program that will power the TF-X, Turkey’s indigenous fighter jet in the making."

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/05/29/turkey-rolls-royce-set-deadline-for-talks-over-homemade-jets-engine/

"Turkey’s fighter jet program races ahead as Russian firm reveals interest"

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2018/05/02/turkeys-fighter-jet-program-races-ahead-as-russian-firm-reveals-interest/
 

Deltafan

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General Electric beats Rolls-Royce to power Turkey’s indigenous fighter jet

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2018/10/31/general-electric-beats-rolls-royce-to-power-turkeys-indigenous-fighter-jet/
 

kaiserd

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Deltafan said:
General Electric beats Rolls-Royce to power Turkey’s indigenous fighter jet

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2018/10/31/general-electric-beats-rolls-royce-to-power-turkeys-indigenous-fighter-jet/
Interesting as the F110 is a substantially bigger, heavier and more powerful engine than the EJ200.
Obvious knock on in terms of the likely size, weight and cost of the TFX.
 

totoro

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I am very surprised by this decision. Not only does it point towards a quite large plane, much larger than the f16s that this plane will be replacing, but the chosen engine is also less advanced technologically. The idea that it's gonna be just an interim engine until a domestic one is ready is crazy as well. There is little to no chance turkey can develop a better engine on its own in the next several decades ...

Also, going American is surprising given the Rocky political relationship. F-35 may not arrive to turkey yet turkey expects to get US engines for its advanced fighter??
 

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OR perhaps Turkey wants a single engine TFX. The same manner as KFX. C-501 Configuration. Then GE-F110 Series would make sense.



Nonetheless if they push TFX to be twin engined, i imagine at least F-15 size fighter there.
 

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stealthflanker said:
OR perhaps Turkey wants a single engine TFX. The same manner as KFX. C-501 Configuration. Then GE-F110 Series would make sense.



Nonetheless if they push TFX to be twin engined, i imagine at least F-15 size fighter there.
The single engined TFX would probably be okay for a potential F-16 replacement for Turkey, but I thought that the twin engined variant would be to replace the F-4 Phantoms that are still in service.
 

r16

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people are obviously assuming there was any trouble between America and the current Goverment . Plus isn't F-110 like limited to 18 tons of thrust due mass flow ?
 
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