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Turkish TFX National Combat Aircraft

ocay

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Turkey offically started future fighter and advanced jet trainer project. F-X fighter will be used along with F16s and F35. TAI yesterday signed contract for around 20 million USD for concept design of F-X/T-X according to TurAF needs. Concept design study will finish with in 2 years; and desicion about project will given before 2014. For the same project TAI is searching for international partners. Currently there are talks with KAI to join KF-X programme; and Swedish SAAB for future fighter.


Here is the latest news about project:


Turkey holding rival talks on aircraft with Koreans, SwedesMonday, August 22, 2011ÜMİT ENGİNSOYANKARA – Hürriyet Daily NewsBesides an ongoing plan to develop a fighter jet program with the US or Europe, Turkey is seeking to broaden its fleet with a second option. South Korea’s KAI and Sweden’s Saab are the two possible partners, according to a Turkish procurement official. Turkey is supposed to take part in the design of the possible projectTurkey recently had held separate talks with aeronautical officials from South Korea and Sweden for possible cooperation in the design, development and production of a new fighter aircraft in the next decade, a senior procurement official said at the weekend.“The companies are South Korea’s Korea Aerospace Industries [KAI] and Sweden’s Saab,” the official said.KAI is the manufacturer of several military and civilian aircraft and satellites and is planning to produce the fighter aircraft KF-X. Saab is the maker of the multi-role fighter JAS 39 Gripen.Turkey, whose present fighter fleet is made up of U.S.-made aircraft, also plans to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II planes, a next-generation, multinational program also led by the United States.But Turkish officials privately say they want another future jet fighter to be developed with a country or countries other than the United States, in an effort to reduce the country’s dependence on Washington.Most of Turkey’s present fleet of F-16 fighters, being modernized by U.S. firm Lockheed Martin, and the planned future F-35s are open to U.S. influence. Only its older F-4 aircraft, modernized by Israel, and its oldest F-16s, being modernized by Turkey itself, technologically are free from this influence, the officials said. But these older aircraft are expected to be decommissioned around 2020.“Turkey wants part of its fighter aircraft fleet to remain outside the technological and other influence of the United States. It believes this scheme would better fit its national interests,” said one Turkish defense analyst.So as part of efforts to select a new fighter for the Turkish Air Force, Turkish Aerospace Industries, or TAI, has been tasked with determining the specifications of the new fighter. It has until the end of next year to finish the process.Turkey in the past has assembled and jointly manufactured some military aircraft, but this is the first time the country’s developing defense industry fully will be involved in the design of a complex weapons system, such as a jet fighter.The country last year held an initial round of talks with South Korea’s KAI on the matter. But the South Koreans then offered only a 20 percent share of the project to Turkey, with another 20 percent going to Indonesia, opting for 60 percent of the program for themselves. Turkey wants an equal share in the development of a new plane and was quick to reject the offer.“Now the South Koreans are coming much closer to the idea of equal ownership, and this is positive,” said the Turkish procurement official. “But there are still many more things to be discussed with them.”In the meantime, Turkey continues to be interested in rival programs, and the recent talks with Saab officials reflect this situation, the procurement official said. “Sweden also is a potential partner for us.”In addition to KAI and Saab, a consortium of European companies, also continues efforts to include Turkey in its program for the Eurofighter Typhoon project. This consortium is Eurofighter, whose members include Italian, German, British and Spanish firms.Italy’s deputy defense minister said in May that the pan-European Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft was the only viable alternative to U.S. planes in this category, urging Turkey to join the ambitious European-led defense program.“The Eurofighter is the only alternative to U.S. aircraft, and provides a great relief to world countries,” Guido Crosetto said in Istanbul on the sidelines of the International Defense Industry Fair 2011.
 

royabulgaf

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The other discussion was on Turkish fanart. It seems Turkey is looking for a backup in case the F-35 project somehow falls through. SAAB would like a launch customer for their updated Gripen, and S Korea might be interested in something to compete with Dassault. However, their Phantoms and first gen Vipers are running on borrowed time. They cannot afford to start with a clean sheet of paper. It's the Super Gripen or nothing.
 

ocay

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After 2 year concept definition phase; Turkish government wants at least several prototype should fly in 2023 (the year Turkish Republic celebrate 100th year). And serial production after that..
 

Deino

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But so far no concept or something similar shown ?!

IMO it's anyway a quite demanding project for a type to be used in both the trainer and fighter/fighter-bomber role. Seems like something of a new-generation T-50 or JAS-39 !

Deino
 

ocay

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so far no concept released. Whenever they release I will post to the forum. I Think the design will use same airframe for both FX-TX . If we could see modern stealthy concept of F5 and T38 it would not be surprising. Interestingly with in this FX design UCAVs also under consideration. So there could be even 3 different version air defence oriented FX trainer TX and an UCAV for SEAD DEAD deep strike role share same airframe. Anyway we will see with in 2 years main concept designs.
 

Deino

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Hmm ... overall it reminds me very much to the original MAKO !
 

TuAF

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royabulgaf said:
The other discussion was on Turkish fanart. It seems Turkey is looking for a backup in case the F-35 project somehow falls through. SAAB would like a launch customer for their updated Gripen, and S Korea might be interested in something to compete with Dassault. However, their Phantoms and first gen Vipers are running on borrowed time. They cannot afford to start with a clean sheet of paper. It's the Super Gripen or nothing.
SOME FACTS

Turkey through the TFX program is not looking for a back up in case the F-35 co-production deal falls through. Turkey is a Level 3 partner in the JSF consortium and has currently commenced licence production of the F-35 engine and fuselage for the Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) phase of the JSF program.

The Turkish Air Force is looking to develop an indigenous fighter platform which will work parallel with the F-16 and F-35 within a Network centric force structure.

See http://www.ssm.gov.tr/home/projects/air/originalAirVhcl/Sayfalar/JetTrainerAircraft.aspx

_____________________________________________________________________

What first generation F-16's are you talking about?

The Turkish Air Force operates the world's 3rd largest fleet of Highly Advanced F-16.

All Turkish F-16's (38 Block 30, 104 Block 40, 76 Block 50) have undergone extensive CCIP modernization totalling $3.9 billion. The upgrade for the Turkish F-16s consist of the APG-68(V)9 multimode radar (currently being installed on new Advanced Block 50/52 F-16s), color cockpit displays and recorders, new core avionics processors, the Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System, Link 16 data link, advanced interrogator/transponder, integrated precision navigation, a unique electronic warfare system, and compatibility with a number of new weapons and targeting systems.

Turkish Aerospace Industries has also recently delivered an additional batch of Advanced Block 50+ (30 in total).
__________________________________________________________

Turkish Air Force operated F-4E Terminator 2020's are also not obsolete junk but rather formidable strike aircraft.

They differ from the existing F-4E airframe in a number of key areas; small strakes have been fitted above the air intakes to improve the agility of the admittedly lumbering fighter, new attachment fittings have also been added, to better handle modern weaponry. Other additions include stronger wing fold ribs, an updated canopy sill bar, and the replacement of some 20km of wiring (reducing weight by 750 kg) as well as most hydraulic and pneumatic lines and hoses.

The most radical changes occurred in the avionics department. All 2020s have been fitted with vastly updated suite, including MFDs (multifunction displays) as standard, and incorporating a number of new technologies. new Kaiser El-OP 976 wide-angle HUD and HOTAS system, high performance Elta EL/M-2032ISAR-capable high-resolution SAR/GMTI (ground moving target indicator) multi-mode fire control radar (developed for the IAI Lavi), IAIC mission computer, new navigation equipment including GPS/INS connected to mapping mode, dual MIL-STD-553B databus managing avionics package, Astronautics Central Air Data Computer, new UHF and IFF packages, airborne video tape recorder (AVTR), Elta EL/L-8222 active ECM pod and Mikes (Aselsan) AN/ALQ-178V3 passive embedded SPEWS, and RWR.

Additionally they had AGM-142 Popeye/Have Nap integration, Litening-II targeting pods, and the capability to launch AGM-65D/G Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, GBU-8 HOBOS, GBU-10/12 Paveway II LGBs, general purpose and cluster bombs for air-to-ground missions, while retaining the capability to launch AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. It is also possible to install Pave Spike targeting pods and rocket pods of all sizes. TuAF F-4E Terminators are also capable of lauching many indigenous Turkish missiles such as the Tubitak-Sage SOM Stand Off cruise missile.


Perhaps the below may assist.






 

ocay

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TX-FX project continue with TAI and Swedish SAAB team. So new aircraft might be also future Swedish fighter who knows..
 

SlowMan

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http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-delays-f-35-order-due-to-lacking-in-project.aspx?pageID=238&nID=38904&NewsCatID=344

Turkey delays F-35 order due to lacking in project
ANKARA - Hürriyet Daily News

Turkey will decide on the date for receiving its very first F-35 fighter jets next year, says the country’s top army procurement body, which is unsatisfied with the development of the project and the costs

“Turkey will continue its activities in the JSF [Joint Strike Force] program, in which it is a participating member, and projects to have 100 F-35A planes, as had been planned.

After 2020 Turkey is also planning to design, develop and produce another fighter plane to eliminate the JSF’s deficiencies either by itself, or through a partner, most likely South Korea.
TF-X is supposed eliminate the F-35's deficiencies? This TF-X must be a bigger and more powerful jet than the F-35 to make up for the F-35's deficiencies(Slow and not very agile). But that's not what Saab had in mind. Has Turkey changed the direction of the TF-X program again?
 

mkurt

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Defence journalism is not exactly a large field in Turkey and mostly political writes cover the field, leading to a lack of expertise. And all sorts of odd things are now apparently said to people currently in charge. Removes the fun, wouldn't you say? Nobody will correct the F-35 and may it go to hell.
 

mkurt

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Ahh, you have no idea how deep this runs.
 

mithril

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most likely the defiency they're looking to cover is "cost".. the F35 being rather expensive and having trended upwards in cost in the last few years. so they are likely looking at the possibility that when the F35 starts actually being opened up to export to the participants in the F35 program, that they'll be unable to buy as many F35's as they'd originally hoped.

so looking for a (hopefully) cheaper fighter to provide additional #'s for their airforce, without having to buy all F35's, seems a reasonable idea.
 

mkurt

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An idea that makes it obligatory to remark on the dislike against this funding of South Korean defence industry. Apparently our MBT is the most expensive in the world and even South Koreans are against it. While one must avoid making this an anti-F-35 thread cost is merely one facet, even if it equally hurts. We are all monkeys here; we must be allowed to fail utterly and avoid the greatest thing Mankind ever builds. Without getting reported or laughed at.
 

mkurt

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The US is on average 2 years late, in everything that has been offered. They will "sometime soon" will press Criminal charges. I was thinking that the thing could be over by 2016-18, but ı hear this would rather be the start-up date. Which then possibly means 2026 or so and no sign of giving up the contract. Nothing worthy of discussion really. Uncle Sam passed on the chance to kill the deal when Ankara seemed so Anti-Semitic.

There have been so clear signals and they were all ignored. When somebody says the anti-matter weapons will be used against the US if something goes on, it doesn't have to be always filler. Others have seen that as a measure of feeling.
 

lancer21

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First public TFX concepts from IDEF-2013, posted my medal64 at keypubs:
 

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Deino

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It's lookning good but - maybe as expected - not very different to the Japanese ATD-X, the South Korean or Indian concepts.

As such the question remains, WHY again not consolitationg the efforts ?? ... again simply due to politics and industrial independence ??

Anyway it will be interesting to see which one will finally survive and finally fly and even more what kind of engine will be used.

Given the size, only two EJ-200, M88 or F414 would fit or for the single engined type a F135 !

Deino
 

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r16

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it's simply a political requirement for the Goverment to look good . Co-operation is acceptable when the co-operating partners shut up and allow the whole credit .
 

Triton

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"Turkish TFX fighter concept revealed at IDEF"

by Tolga Ozbek
Flight International
5/9/2013

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-turkish-tfx-fighter-concept-revealed-at-idef-385659/

Three potential designs for a planned TFX Turkish fighter concept have been shown for the first time at the International Defence Industry Fair in Istanbul, with the programme's current initial design phase due to conclude later this year.

Images depict a single-engined aircraft with and without canards and a twin-engined design, with these having been influenced by discussions between the Turkish air force and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI).

Tolga Ozbek/Tim Bicheno-Brown/Flightglobal

TAI says the initial designs will be assessed against air force requirements during a workshop, with a report to be submitted by Turkey's undersecretary of defence industries by the end of September 2013.

TAI was awarded a contract last year to perform the activity, with the company working with Swedish manufacturer Saab.

Under current plans, the TFX project could lead to the first flight of a Turkish-built fighter in 2023, with the type to potentially be acquired as a replacement for the air force's oldest Lockheed Martin F-16Cs.
 

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Spook

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On Wikipedia it is mentioned:

"ASELSAN is currently developing a highly advanced AESA radar which will use gallium nitride (GaN) technology for the TFX program." Can someone shed a bit of light on what this "GaN" technology is, how does it work and what are its benefits over other types of radars? ::)

Thanks,
Ardavan
 

Reaper

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can somebody explain this slide to me?
 

Sundog

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Reaper said:
can somebody explain this slide to me?

It shows the three design configurations being considered for the TFX program with an F-16 for scale reference. The comments below were obviously not intended to be arrows indicating better performance as you move to the right. It's just another poorly executed slide from a Powerpoint presentation designed by someone who doesn't understand how to communicate information graphically or just isn't very good at it.
 

r16

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not to point out that they practically don't know much about design . When there was this talk on a national trainer aircraft , a goverment minister or some guy as high told the project was feasible because they had the blueprints in a bank safe . Really ! Turns out the Air Force wants to buy Korean planes which seem extremely like the local production , presumably because they are both a Pilatus rip-off or something to that end .

and with the stuff the country goes through the graph seriously might point out the eventual capability F-16 being max and a Chinese clone coming a close second now that Americans would not be able to interfere much . This of course assumes Chinese will not turn over F-22 data . F-16 still rules supreme , right ?
 

fightingirish

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A new render of the TFX program.
Apparently nothing more shown at the IDEF 2015 last week.
 

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orko_8

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fightingirish said:
A new render of the TFX program.
Apparently nothing more shown at the IDEF 2015 last week.
Indeed, there was nothing about TFX at the show - except EuroJet's pitch for EJ200 as the engine.

It was also revealed that three companies responded to RfI for preliminary design: BAE, Saab and Airbus.
 

mkurt

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And things that quite a few Turkish posters anywhere online would have a hard time to swallow...

Because the American conception of the Middle East is to delegate Turkey to the likes of Saudi Arabia. Since there is also a lingering suspicion left that Turkey meant to be transformed still has friends in unlikely places, there are also moves to placate those who might not be in agreement with America deems best. Accordingly, America -without the slighest hint of Shame- delays the training of Syrian Rebels. Or this media circus that currently goes on in Turkey. Ethem Sancak is a funder of this Counter-Revolution that goes on and on, besides being an industrialist who has bought the factory that makes mine resistant vehicles for the Army. He also seems to be a prime "candidate" for any jet programme. America feeling this might be too much, in view of the second shoot-down of the Yemeni crisis, figuratively offers his head on a pike. Ethem Sancak is necessarily everywhere, on every single TV channel he owns, glorifying the former Prime Minister and reminds how he fought each and every one of PM's enemies like lions.

These are minor tactical offers; it's well known nothing will change in the broader outlook. That's why Al Jazeera insists that the THK A-400 that crashed in Spain is now bought by the Spanish Air Force. Considering this would be the temptation to talk of the '35 streak inside. Because unlike all those claims of "No comprehension of what the hell" it's crystal clear that those planes were and are unwanted as well. Here's the deal. On this day of May 15th, 2015 the Airbus Management will buy back the two delivered and cancel the rest. Re-booting is optional and at Europeans' discretion. An unjustifiably generous offer, it's too... Subtlety is a virtue that few ever values; but it should be understood that nobody likes clarity. One less dignitary at the Podium on the Parade of October 29th, 2023 is not as good as people seem to think.
 

r16

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do you have an idea of the New Turkey ? All evidence that you might ever need is a Key Forums thread in which some guy on the net declares there would be rather more crashes of the A-400s . Which is kinda all BS ; now that if it wasn't an accident , Airbus would have known which circuitry "failed" already , being the builders of it in the first place .
 

hesham

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Hi,

the KF-X and TF-X.

Wojsko i Technika 2016-03
 

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Deltafan

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During May's visit to Ankara, Turkey and Britain signed a deal to jointly build fighter jets. Britain's BAE Systems and Turkish Aerospace industries signed the 100 million-pound (nearly $125.5 million US) agreement establishing a partnership for the development of Turkey's fighter jet program.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/theresa-may-recep-erdogan-1.3956656
 

Deino

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To admit, as long as the political situation does not change, I hope Germany will block any sale of the EJ-200. :(
 

ocay

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Probably we will see double engine Eurofighter size design in the end
 
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