• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Tupolev's dive-bomber ANT-57

borovik

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
790
Reaction score
103
ANT-57 aka "57";PB 4M-105;"101";"Polit Byuro"
May 1939
span 26m, wing area 76,5 m2 (nearly as beside Er-2)
engines 4 x 105TK (1050 hp)
max speed 570-600 km/h at 8000-10000m
ceiling max. 12500m
range 1500km (max. 4000km)
bombs 3000 kg
armament 3 x 2 Ultra ShKAS (7,62)
Bibliography:A.Medved, V.Perov "Four engines dive-bomber by A.N.Tupolev" Planes of the world #3-4 1997
M.Maslov "Dive-bomber for Lavrentiy Beriya's" As magazine #2 1993
 

Attachments

  • ANT-57 (PB).jpg
    ANT-57 (PB).jpg
    73.5 KB · Views: 907
  • ANT-57.jpg
    ANT-57.jpg
    34.2 KB · Views: 837
  • ANT-57 ..jpg
    ANT-57 ..jpg
    82.7 KB · Views: 712

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,225
Reaction score
931
The irony of this design and the comparison drawing with the He 177 is, I think,
that Heinkel was forced to use coupled engines, because a conventional 4-engined
bomber was thought, not to be capable of dive bombing !
 

Nick Sumner

Live! From the Belly of the Beast!
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
527
Reaction score
143
Fascinating - but I have to ask, remote control turrets? That looks like a radar in the nose - can we be sure its a 1939 design?
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,225
Reaction score
931
It's a kind of ball-turret in the nose, I think. The weapons systems looks very adanced for
1939, indeed. I don't know, when the first electrically/hydraulically operated turrets were
introduced, but for example the NA B-25C was ordered in 1940 and delivered at the beginning
of 1942 and was fitted with a remotely controlled Bendix ventral turret. So such systems
probably were already under development in 1939 in the US. And in the SU ? Don't know,
but a design don't say, that all of the planned equipment is already on a workable standard
and AFAIK, at least the mentioned Bendix turret was removed from many aircraft, because
of it's "usefulnes" ... ;D
 

Artie Bob

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
167
Reaction score
28
IMHO, the use of coupled engines was not forced upon Heinkel for the 8-177. The other "A" bomber design I am aware of did not use coupled engines. I believe the powerplant configuration owed its origins to the He 119 design and was an attempt by the Heinkel designers to achieve a "cleaner" package. This I believe was done before the dive bombing requirement was added to the specifications In the end, it appears neither the aerodynamic or mechanical goals were achieved, at least not in time for the aircraft to perform the role for which it had originally been intended.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob
 

Pepe Rezende

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
96
Reaction score
3
Artie Bob said:
IMHO, the use of coupled engines was not forced upon Heinkel for the 8-177. The other "A" bomber design I am aware of did not use coupled engines. I believe the powerplant configuration owed its origins to the He 119 design and was an attempt by the Heinkel designers to achieve a "cleaner" package. This I believe was done before the dive bombing requirement was added to the specifications In the end, it appears neither the aerodynamic or mechanical goals were achieved, at least not in time for the aircraft to perform the role for which it had originally been intended.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Heinkel engineers choice coupled engine to reduce risks on dive attack. They pester Hitler, until 1944, to use uncoupled engines without success. Then they built He277 in an almost clandestine form.

Cheers

Pepe
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,225
Reaction score
931
According to my issue of "the Kens/Novarra" (although not regarded as always
credible anymore, I think !), Artie is right, as the use of coupled engines was just
a result of the experiences with the He 119. It was an attempt, to reduce drag
considerably. Then, in 1938, driven by Ernst Udet, the RLM demanded dive bombing
capabilities for all bomber aircraft, and the standard opinion in these times in germany
were, that they couldn't be achieved with a four engined aircraft .
 

borovik

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
790
Reaction score
103
raravia said:
Awesome!

But I think it´s too big to be a dive bomber.
This plane was designing at TsKB-29 NKVD in the Special Technical Department /Spetsial'ny Tehnichesky Otdel/ (STO) where Tupolev was under arrest.
Detailed about TsKB-29 NKVD here- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1975.0/
Tupolev himself supported two-engined plane and was working under PB-2M-120 (ANT-5, "FB", "103") project during the same time, but 4-engined plane wasn't his initiative. So sometimes he had to embody an absurd and mutually exclusive requirements.
The two-engined "103" (fither/later Tu-2) was in mass production.
Besides the ANT-57 and TB-7 (Pe-8) during prewar period, there was at least
one more 4-engined project "D" by V.Bolkhovitinov. It was with 2 engines (M-105) in
pair on each wing (with pulling and pushing propellers), having clean
spindle-like fuselage with projecting gondola. There was another variant
with suddenly unclassified M-40 Diesel engines.
1) "FB" (ANT-58)
2) "103"(ANT-58) from Bastion Vol.2
Fascinating - but I have to ask, remote control turrets? That looks like a radar in the nose - can we be sure its a 1939 design?
To Nick Sumner :
This is hydraulically operated turret. (Thanks U , Jens ;) )
Radar wasn't planned in the project /originally/
Though it is required to remark that at the same TsKB-29 NKVD engineer K.Polischuk
was developing radar plant designated for "114R" Bartini's
interceptor ("zenitny samolet" in Russian)
 

Attachments

  • =58= (FB).jpg
    =58= (FB).jpg
    178.7 KB · Views: 676
  • =103=.jpg
    =103=.jpg
    84 KB · Views: 659

Rickshaw

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
2,023
Reaction score
106
Jemiba said:
The irony of this design and the comparison drawing with the He 177 is, I think,
that Heinkel was forced to use coupled engines, because a conventional 4-engined
bomber was thought, not to be capable of dive bombing !

The problem is not the number of engines but the size of the aircraft and how strong its structure could be built to withstand the stresses of pulling out of a dive. The He177 was actually quite capable of dive bombing but it depends how you define what "dive bombing" is. If you think its the classic Stuka stereotype of a 70+ degrees dive then obviously it won't survive the pull out, whereas if its much shallower, such as under say 20 degrees, then even the He177 could do that without too much trouble. Interesting, the largest successful dive bomber could perhaps be said to have been the Lancaster - they often executed their bombing attacks in shallow dives because it imparted slightly greater speed on them and also complicated the defences' task of trying to predict their flight for anti-aircraft gunnery. ;)
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,375
Reaction score
2,548
Hi!

Source :
https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=LXlpAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT64&lpg=PT64&dq=%D0%A2%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2+%D0%90%D0%9D%D0%A2-11&source=bl&ots=NhJUbDl6Qv&sig=e1mRK2EwRrgum2W3t-moPOgOohY&hl=ja&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHkryXwZnRAhVGxbwKHZr4DDw4ChDoAQg4MAQ#v=onepage&q=%D0%A2%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%20%D0%90%D0%9D%D0%A2-11&f=false

And
http://alternathistory.com/pb-4m-105tk-ant-57-pikiruyushchii-bombardirovshchik-s-chetyrmya-motorami-proekt-tupolev-sssr1939g
 

Attachments

  • ANT-57.jpg
    ANT-57.jpg
    47.4 KB · Views: 72
  • 010911_ANT-57_0.gif
    010911_ANT-57_0.gif
    28 KB · Views: 55

Avimimus

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
1,968
Reaction score
83
Interesting design. With that speed it would have been hard to intercept. Later war variants would have had more powerful engines (at least 10% more power - and that is excluding use of the VK-107). The front turret could be deleted and replaced with a fixed gun as no fighter could reliably attack such a fast plane from the front quarter. The weight saving could be used to increase range/payload, lighten the design, or add a very cramped navigator/bombardier position.

So despite the expense and apparent unreasonableness, such a design likely could've put the Mosquito to shame.

Nick Sumner said:
Fascinating - but I have to ask, remote control turrets? That looks like a radar in the nose - can we be sure its a 1939 design?

I believe the use of Ultra-ShKas in the design suggests it is 1941 or earlier.
 

redstar72

Soviet Aviation enthusiast
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
517
Reaction score
49
Kadija_Man said:
The problem is not the number of engines but the size of the aircraft and how strong its structure could be built to withstand the stresses of pulling out of a dive.

The ANT-57 wasn't too big. Its wing was about the size of the Wellington, while the fuselage was about 5 meters shorter. It would be one of the smallest four-engined bombers if it would be built (only the Bloch MB.135 was lighter and a bit smaller). While four-engined, ANT-57 was medium bomber, not heavy.

By the way, DB-3 was used for dive bombing experiments in the USSR (the aircraft not much smaller than the ANT-57, and which wasn't designed for dive bombing at all) - and it turned out that its strength is quite enough, but it wasn't good for dive bombing by other reasons (mainly, the pilot's observability was too bad).
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,375
Reaction score
2,548
Hi! M-105P engine. I can't find M-105TK engine picture or specification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klimov_M-105

OKB TOPOLEV(ISBN 1-85780-214-4) page82.
"Tupolev and his colleagues also worked on a twin-engined version with 24-cylinder Dobrynin M-120TK engines.(precursor of Tu-2)"
I can't find Dobrynin M-120TK engine picture and specification, too.
 

Attachments

  • 41RHC6Y3Y7L.jpg
    41RHC6Y3Y7L.jpg
    28.7 KB · Views: 32
  • M-105 ENGINE.jpg
    M-105 ENGINE.jpg
    48.3 KB · Views: 19

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,375
Reaction score
2,548
Almost same but little different drawings.

http://samlib.ru/p/polikarpowich_s_i/sekr54-57ant.shtml
 

Attachments

  • sekr54-57ant-11.jpg
    sekr54-57ant-11.jpg
    36.2 KB · Views: 41
  • pic_12.jpg
    pic_12.jpg
    33.8 KB · Views: 51

iverson

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
343
Reaction score
142
blackkite said:
Hi! M-105P engine. I can't find M-105TK engine picture or specification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klimov_M-105

OKB TOPOLEV(ISBN 1-85780-214-4) page82.
"Tupolev and his colleagues also worked on a twin-engined version with 24-cylinder Dobrynin M-120TK engines.(precursor of Tu-2)"
I can't find Dobrynin M-120TK engine picture and specification, too.

The M-105TK was the Klimov M-105 with two TK-3 turbo-superchargers and a modified reduction gear. It was in prodcution from 1939-40. It was used in the Petlyakov VI-100 high-altitude fighter.

The M-120 was another Klimov engine that combined three M-103 blocks (18 cylinders rather than 24) spaced 120-degrees apart on a shared crankcase. The M-120TK was the same engine with turbo-superchargers. It was rated at 1400/1600 hp and weighed 950 kg. It never entered service because of reliability problems and, no doubt, the success of higher-powered versions of the lighter 12-cylinder engines.

Source: Russian Piston Aero Engines by Vladimir Kotelnikov (Crowood, 2005).

The attached photos of the M-105TK in the VI-100 are from somewhere on the internet.
 

Attachments

  • pic_8.jpg
    pic_8.jpg
    18.1 KB · Views: 122
  • pic_4.jpg
    pic_4.jpg
    43.7 KB · Views: 120

iverson

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
343
Reaction score
142
I just found two pictures of the M-120 in my collection (ultimate source again unknown).
 

Attachments

  • M-120-700x387.jpg
    M-120-700x387.jpg
    28.2 KB · Views: 118
  • poslednie-porshnevye-bombardirovshchiki-01-04.jpg
    poslednie-porshnevye-bombardirovshchiki-01-04.jpg
    54.4 KB · Views: 116

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,375
Reaction score
2,548
Thanks a lot iverson-san. Amazing pictures. :eek:
 

Similar threads

Top