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Tempest - UK Future fighter programme

Ares

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There's a story about an AI that was tasked with landing a plane with the minimum force on a simulator. It nose-dived the plane into the ground and the resulting force was so large that it overflowed the register in the computer where the force value was stored causing it to default to a zero. The AI felt this was a success.

Skynet gonna proud of her boi.
 

zen

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There's a story about an AI that was tasked with landing a plane with the minimum force on a simulator. It nose-dived the plane into the ground and the resulting force was so large that it overflowed the register in the computer where the force value was stored causing it to default to a zero. The AI felt this was a success.

Skynet gonna proud of her boi.
Yeah we built Skynet....
Reminds me of something I say at work, when say things like "oh for God's sake" about something (usually related to the management)
"You do realise we work for the other side"
 

Seeker9

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There's a story about an AI that was tasked with landing a plane with the minimum force on a simulator. It nose-dived the plane into the ground and the resulting force was so large that it overflowed the register in the computer where the force value was stored causing it to default to a zero. The AI felt this was a success.

Skynet gonna proud of her boi.
Yeah we built Skynet....
Reminds me of something I say at work, when say things like "oh for God's sake" about something (usually related to the management)
"You do realise we work for the other side"
Flowers are good for all sides of the world .
 

zebedee

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There's a story about an AI that was tasked with landing a plane with the minimum force on a simulator. It nose-dived the plane into the ground and the resulting force was so large that it overflowed the register in the computer where the force value was stored causing it to default to a zero. The AI felt this was a success.
Thats almost kobayashi maru levels of deviousness...
 

TomcatViP

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Production of the RAF's new unmanned high-speed combat drone is set to begin in Northern Ireland in a £30million project.

Nicknamed the 'loyal wingman', the aircraft will be designed to fly alongside fighter jets, armed with surveillance and electronic warfare technology to provide a battle-winning advantage over hostile forces.
38432570-9182835-Production_of_the_RAF_s_new_unmanned_high_speed_combat_drone_the-a-34_1611540372960.jpg


 

GARGEAN

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Is it me or Tempest is by far the most clouded by buzzwords and bragging desighn out of all modern aircrafts? "It has mind-blowing radar!" when work on radar isn' even properly begun. "Production of Loyal Wingman is set to start!" when only 30 mil invested into draft project noone knows what (if anything) will come from. And so much more...
 

Foo Fighter

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I get the feeling every project around has buzz words to attract attention and button clicks/funding. Why should this be any different?
 

GARGEAN

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All of them got buzzwords and stuff. But I don't think any got THAT MUCH of them at so incredibly early stages (not even a proper design work started, and it's already "world beating" and "wars winning")
 

TomcatViP

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Notice that the 30 millions is for launching production and not for launching R&D only.
Notice also the original aspect of the design with its positive dihedral and anhedral at the wing tips.
 

red admiral

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Is it me or Tempest is by far the most clouded by buzzwords and bragging desighn out of all modern aircrafts? "It has mind-blowing radar!" when work on radar isn' even properly begun. "Production of Loyal Wingman is set to start!" when only 30 mil invested into draft project noone knows what (if anything) will come from. And so much more...
Lots of the Tempest push is around increased interest in STEM and engineering careers amongst young people. The press releases aren't necessarily aimed at the members of this forum.

At the same time two related things have got conflated. Tempest the technology development activity over the next 5-6 years which is doing things like engine demonstrator and flying testbed with new sensors being prototyped. And Tempest the combat air acquisition programme set up to procure a future combat air system.
 

Flyaway

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Is it me or Tempest is by far the most clouded by buzzwords and bragging desighn out of all modern aircrafts? "It has mind-blowing radar!" when work on radar isn' even properly begun. "Production of Loyal Wingman is set to start!" when only 30 mil invested into draft project noone knows what (if anything) will come from. And so much more...
This current government attaches this kind of hot air to anything technological even vaccines where it’s particularly inappropriate in my view.
 

Foo Fighter

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Especially with the current extraction being completed, there are certain tactics the government will use to be more positive regarding the UK and our policies/development so the buzz words will be earlier than perhaps other projects.
 

Hood

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Someone should open a thread for team Mosquito
There is, here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/uk-mod-project-lanca-raf-loyal-wingman.30656/

The Daily Mail is not an aviation journal, everything they write is hyperbole and hubris.

The £30 million is not for production, its for a full-scale flying prototype to fly in 2023 to prove the LANCA concept. (Let's hope they don't bugger it up and crash the bloody thing).
If it works and pleases the MoD and RAF, then I suspect we will either see an operational version ready for the late 2027-2030 timeframe to work with F-35 until Tempest arrives in 2035. Of course they might open up a new tender but that's probably unlikely if they want to keep Warton and Belfast open and two teams is better than one.

I find the reuse of WW2 names a little wearing, they are becoming brands and can be incongruous - note the Avenger is currently a humble King Air 350... and why do we call our Texan IIs Texans when Canada calls theirs Harvards?
 

TomcatViP

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@Hood : I share your opinion with name being re-used. That's really boring indeed.

Regarding the amount dedicated for "production", I wanted only to oppose that to an R&D program as too often in neighboring countries understood for money paid in advance for a bunch guys to accepts seating around a table and start discussing a problem.

The financial aspect is part of the fight more even today and matters to the utmost.
 

shedofdread

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And more of the same from the 'horse's mouth'...
 

steelpillow

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Good to see Short's pulling through, even if under new ownership. I don't suppose BAE would let Spirit call it the Spitfire, I can't help wondering if they will call it the Aedes.
 

robunos

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I bet they don't re-use Spitfire. Or have I just started another conspiracy theory.

View attachment 649416

How I miss Larson.


Chris

Same here Chris, naming the Aedes after the Spitfire would just be too obvious, after all they have used the Typhoon and Tempest names again.

Wasn't the reason for using 'Typhoon' is that it's basically the same word in all the languages of the Eurofighter consortium? Typhoon/Taifun/Tifone? I believe the original word is from Asia . . .
Also, 'Tornado' . . . isn't it originally Spanish?
'Tempest' just follows the sequence . . .


cheers,
Robin.
 

Hood

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The Tornado was meant to be Panther (Panavia Panther - snazzy) but the partners couldn't agree so it became Tornado.
Tornado - Typhoon - Tempest = Hawker's ultimate piston prop series exactly in sequence. Is this coincidence? Perhaps, perhaps not. Its hard to believe that some wag didn't see the link when they chose the name for Tempest.

Renaming the LANCA work as Project Mosquito is less ambiguous, recalls a jack of all trades and creates a Tempest/Mosquito duet.

When they get to recycling names like Bagshot, Hyena, Vivid and Vincent then we can have some real fun.
I don't think anyone would dare bring back Spitfire or Lancaster, Spitfire is too iconic and place names have long been off the MoD naming list.
 

Foo Fighter

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They could have made a poll and ended up calling it "floaty Mc'airhead" or some such.
 

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Without wishing to stray too far OT, are the rights to the Beardmore name available? The 'Inflexible' really should be brought back. Aaaand bringing it back on topic, it would be a great name for something resulting from the current DSTL call relating to composite structures. (Phew! Shoehorned that one in at the last moment... ;) )
 

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uk 75

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I wonder if the RAF are hoping to get some CTOL F35s instead when Tempest does a Dido Harding ( of the UK's "world beating" test,trace and isolate programme).
 

kaiserd

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Promising Union-Jack-labeled Jam tomorrow (with that tomorrow far enough away that it may or may not happen, or evolve, or can potentially be variously delayed) when cancelling Jam today, while loudly telling everyone how you’re really into and serious about Jam you are, is certainly one potential way to go.
 

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Could prove interesting:

Correct me if incorrect but the UK was the largest factor in the 35B, which the 35B was the reason why the 35 was designed without a central weapons bay that caused everything to be stuffed in those bulbous side bays that hurt aerodynamics not to mention was the reason why the fuselage was made so short to keep center of mass optimized for stovl.
 

uk 75

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Could prove interesting:

Correct me if incorrect but the UK was the largest factor in the 35B, which the 35B was the reason why the 35 was designed without a central weapons bay that caused everything to be stuffed in those bulbous side bays that hurt aerodynamics not to mention was the reason why the fuselage was made so short to keep center of mass optimized for stovl.
Yes because our Navy cant operate nuclear carriers so they needed VSTOL.
The RAF were persuaded to join in if they wanted a Tornado replacement that was nt
Typhoon.
The politicians tried to get the carriers changed to CTOL but the electric cats were too expensive.
 

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helmutkohl

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Could prove interesting:

Correct me if incorrect but the UK was the largest factor in the 35B, which the 35B was the reason why the 35 was designed without a central weapons bay that caused everything to be stuffed in those bulbous side bays that hurt aerodynamics not to mention was the reason why the fuselage was made so short to keep center of mass optimized for stovl.
Yes because our Navy cant operate nuclear carriers so they needed VSTOL.
The RAF were persuaded to join in if they wanted a Tornado replacement that was nt
Typhoon.
The politicians tried to get the carriers changed to CTOL but the electric cats were too expensive.
correct me if I'm wrong..
but someone somewhere screwed up on the cost estimates and the ease of converting the ships to CTOL. it wasn't quite as modular as claimed

that said I'm not necessarily against VSTOL either. I hear its easier to get pilots carrier qualified for VSTOL landings on ships than arrested ones (helps RAF).
less fatigue on airframe life due to less deck slamming. 35B makes landing a lot easier than the Harrier did. quick successions of launches via line up.

now if only they can get AWACs on the Osprey (is this a dead end project now?).
not as good as an E-2C (range would still be less). but a lot better than a helicopter.
 

zen

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It wasn't just changing CVF to CTOL that was expensive, it was running CTOL operations compared to STOVL.

48 is a hard reality for the future. This effectively means the QEs will only ever use their full capacity with some of the USMC F35s onboard.

There is a possibility the F35Bs will all be FAA, freeing the RAF to focus on Typhoon and........?

It's also a possible casualty of Radar No.2 funding for Typhoon. A lot of Tempest work is potentially retrofit-able to existing Typhoon or new production.

However the shoot yourself in the foot syndrome means funding for UK weapons integration to F35 could be cut, which will hamper exports of such weapons.
 

kaiserd

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Could prove interesting:

Correct me if incorrect but the UK was the largest factor in the 35B, which the 35B was the reason why the 35 was designed without a central weapons bay that caused everything to be stuffed in those bulbous side bays that hurt aerodynamics not to mention was the reason why the fuselage was made so short to keep center of mass optimized for stovl.
The US Marine Corp were and are the primary drivers (and users) of the F-35B.
 

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Don't forget that the UK joint JAST to replace the Harrier, that's why they insisted on V/STOL and being big Harrier users the USMC jumped on that - from the view of the 1990 it probably looked like there would be a big Harrier community replace by 2000 with the RAF, FAA and USMC.
FOAS was to replace Tornado but died circa 2005.
British Harrier died in 2010 and suddenly the RAF found itself without the need for a V/STOL fighter and tornado GR.4 was rapidly approaching retirement with no replacement in sight. Naturally due to its sensor capabilities F-35B became a de-facto Tornado GR.4 replacement and at that time Tranche 3 Typhoon was still swinging into ground-attack.

The main use will be aboard the carriers as an RAF/RN joint group, and given both carriers are unlikely to be in commission together and with UMSC F-35Bs likely to bulk out the air group for the forseeable I would argue that having more than 48 F-35Bs at this time makes little sense if just naval requirements are considered.

However, if you have 9-18 of them at sea and a dozen at the OCU plus a few in storage it only leaves you with a Tornado replacement force of a dozen or so Lightings you could spare for a coalition force if an emergency arose and the fleet suddenly feels rather thin without adding more time onto the Typhoon airframes which have to last out until the early 2040s.

I don't think that more than 48 were expected before 2025 anyway as the last of the first batch is due for delivery in 2025. Another 90 would probably stretch potential RAF deliveries well into the 2030s. Tempest is scheduled to enter service in 2035 (a big if). That means a 10-year gap.
Saying that, it could be an accountant's trick and we might see a smaller top-up order around 2027-30, defence budgets flip-flop like mad and by then there might be cash for some more.

I suspect that the current goal is to try and get down to a single-fighter fleet; Tempest replacing Typhoons first from 2035-45 and then the F-35Bs would be 20-25 years old and could also be replaced by another Tempest buy or something more suited to carrier use. By the late 2040s/early 2050s HMS QE & PoW will be heading to the breakers and we'll be on CVF Mk.2 and then we can design a closer ship-aircraft interface and go for EMALS etc.
 

Forest Green

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It wasn't just changing CVF to CTOL that was expensive, it was running CTOL operations compared to STOVL.

correct me if I'm wrong..
but someone somewhere screwed up on the cost estimates and the ease of converting the ships to CTOL. it wasn't quite as modular as claimed
Firstly people are confusing CTOL and CATOBAR. BAE were asked to produce a flexible carrier that could easily be changed from STOVL to CATOBAR, BAE actually produced a carrier that cost as much as a new carrier to convert from STOVL to CATOBAR and this saga played out early last decade.
 

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