AleDucat

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One obvious limitation of this inlet design is access to the front of the engine for pre/post flight inspection for FOD damage. The shape of the inlet does not appear to be big enough for personnel entry.

For US fighters, the crew chief typically crawls into the intake and visually inspects the engine 1st stage blades for damage. I don’t see any provision for the Russian FOD screen / alternate intake seen on the MiG 29 or SU 27 aircraft. Remote imaging via borescope is a possible low airframe volume solution, but this requires expensive equipment to be readily available for every inspection and is typically not a quick process

Or, they just don’t do the inspection and accept a number of engine failures due to undetected blade damage….
Matryoshka diagnostic system, could take inlet and engine's 1st stage blades imagery for remote inspection?
 

F119Doctor

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One obvious limitation of this inlet design is access to the front of the engine for pre/post flight inspection for FOD damage. The shape of the inlet does not appear to be big enough for personnel entry.

For US fighters, the crew chief typically crawls into the intake and visually inspects the engine 1st stage blades for damage. I don’t see any provision for the Russian FOD screen / alternate intake seen on the MiG 29 or SU 27 aircraft. Remote imaging via borescope is a possible low airframe volume solution, but this requires expensive equipment to be readily available for every inspection and is typically not a quick process

Or, they just don’t do the inspection and accept a number of engine failures due to undetected blade damage….
Matryoshka diagnostic system, could take inlet and engine's 1st stage blades imagery for remote inspection?
Possible. However, when you do detect damage, you have to remove the engine for blend repair, vs performing it in place?
 

Saber

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While we're on the topic of intake design blocking access to the blades, doesn't the Su-57 have the exact issue with the radar blocker? The inspector can probably visually see the blades but no where near close enough to diagnose(?)

Maybe there will be onboard system to auto examine engine blades with the Matreshka AI, or maybe as part of the Su-57 procurement they are also getting a lot of horoscopes.
 

Sundog

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Fyi, the Checkmate does not have a bifurcated inlet (Which I had also originally thought). It's a single inlet duct like the F-16. The center support in the inlet functions like that of the F-16s for structural support. There are some good images looking in the inlet further up this thread and you can see that. I'm saying that in reference to the 3D model shown a page back.
 

AleDucat

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Fyi, the Checkmate does not have a bifurcated inlet (Which I had also originally thought). It's a single inlet duct like the F-16. The center support in the inlet functions like that of the F-16s for structural support. There are some good images looking in the inlet further up this thread and you can see that. I'm saying that in reference to the 3D model shown a page back.
Every picture I saw has the red cover blocking any further than a meter or less. Can you provide a link or post one of those images you are referring to? Thanks!

Edit: anyway I'll post a render of the inlet I did before July 20th. After MAKS21 show, when I saw that "splitter" down there I thought it was way too wide for being just a structural support, maybe the starting point of a bigger bifurcation around main fuel tank or the rear cockpit of the two seater. And if you can lead me to that images I'll be more than happy to correct my model!
 
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AleDucat

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I did this on July 18th:
509ad9240139bc5b3f89560e89d72713.png


BTW, this was my first attempt on May 27th after that Chemezov's desk model photo:
7818316b8262045d304869ff89a3d5f1.png


Both times I was thinking on a "simpler" S-Duct..
 

helmutkohl

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really enjoying your 3d models Aleducat! on a related note, have you ever thought about doing whatif camo schemes for the Checkmate? such as in Vietnamese, Indian, UAE?, Egyptian? etc colors. I'm sure the military community in those countries would really love your renders!
 

LMFS

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Time to bring up some authoritative sources and hopefully put to rest a couple of cheap coping arguments we have heard a lot about the LTS:

1. "Russians are begging for development money to third world countries because they don't have rubles and government / VKS have no interest in the LTS"
2. "The Chekmate is an improvised mockup made with pieces of the Su-57 for an airshow stunt, that will be actually designed only if some customer is lured to pay for it"

To 1)
Russia will independently finance the creation of the fifth-generation Checkmate fighter without attracting foreign investment. This was announced on the sidelines of the Eastern Economic Forum RIA Novosti said the head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov.

According to him, it absolutely does not depend on foreign customers. Moreover, the budget is fully aligned, both with the participation of programs of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, and extra-budgetary funds of Rostec and UAC.

Foreign participation is not excluded. Foreign customers can finance the creation of a two-seat fighter, said Manturov. Checkmate is primarily focused on deliveries to foreign markets, but do not forget about the supply of aircraft to the Russian troops, the minister added.

https://rg.ru/2021/09/03/manturov-rossiia-sama-profinansiruet-sozdanie-istrebitelia-checkmate.html

To 2)
The aviation complex has been designed, its characteristics have been confirmed by a full range of virtual tests, and static strength tests will be conducted soon. The first flight of the Checkmate LTS is scheduled for 2023

Mikhail Strelets

https://tass.ru/interviews/11944415
 

totoro

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it absolutely does not depend on foreign customers. Moreover, the budget is fully aligned, both with the participation of programs of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, and extra-budgetary funds of Rostec and UAC.

Checkmate is primarily focused on deliveries to foreign markets, but do not forget about the supply of aircraft to the Russian troops, the minister added.
I find those two statements above a bit contradictory.

So, allegedly the development project is already financed? But not explicitly by the Russian MoD? Rather, by a non-defense ministry and by planemaker companies themselves?
And all that without a signed buyer? (be it foreign or Russian MoD) If that's true, it'd be a first. No arrangement like that exists in the world for a project of comparable scale to a modern fighter jet.

I mean, it's either primarily focused on foreign markets - so there are some foreign buyers signed already. Or it's focused on Russian MoD, so the MoD is a buyer. Or it's focused on both equally, so there already is a (perhaps smaller) contract for MoD and some contracts (but perhaps not as many) for foreign sales.

There are two potential development paths in aerospace.
1. Plane maker designs a plane and makes working prototypes. Then hopes there will be some buyers.
2. Plane maker gets contracted by a government to devise a plane.

With the latter being almost the norm, and the former being an exception. Which... to my knowledge, hasn't really happened in decades now.

If there isn't a buyer lined up, then that plane taking flight in 2023 could, at best, be a concept demonstrator, financed by the planemakers. Similar to the Chinese 00031 demonstrator, financed internally by AVIC for years. Also fishing for buyers as they presented a potential FC-31. And finally, it seems, the Chinese MoD did invest into developing and buying a variant of it.

So... I see a lot of similarities between Checkmate and 00031 at this stage. The biggest difference would be the PR effort, which is non existent for 00031 initially and even later it was basically just some scale models and promo pamphlets at airshows.
 

BLACK_MAMBA

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One obvious limitation of this inlet design is access to the front of the engine for pre/post flight inspection for FOD damage. The shape of the inlet does not appear to be big enough for personnel entry.

For US fighters, the crew chief typically crawls into the intake and visually inspects the engine 1st stage blades for damage. I don’t see any provision for the Russian FOD screen / alternate intake seen on the MiG 29 or SU 27 aircraft. Remote imaging via borescope is a possible low airframe volume solution, but this requires expensive equipment to be readily available for every inspection and is typically not a quick process

Or, they just don’t do the inspection and accept a number of engine failures due to undetected blade damage….
I've seen footage of personell crawling into a Gripen intake which is a much smaller aircraft with smaller intakes than LTS. I highly doubt access through the intake will be an issue.
 

LMFS

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So, allegedly the development project is already financed? But not explicitly by the Russian MoD? Rather, by a non-defense ministry and by planemaker companies themselves?
And all that without a signed buyer? (be it foreign or Russian MoD) If that's true, it'd be a first. No arrangement like that exists in the world for a project of comparable scale to a modern fighter jet.
Not at all. It is quite normal in the Russian MIC that Ministry of Industry and/or the developer themselves pay for the first stages of the program and the military only commits when the product is essentially ready and free from technical risks, like happened with the Su-35. It is actually a smart way of making sure that the developer is not engaging in happy engineering at the expenses of the MoD and is only going to come up with proposals that actually make sense and are viable on their own.
 

kaiserd

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So, allegedly the development project is already financed? But not explicitly by the Russian MoD? Rather, by a non-defense ministry and by planemaker companies themselves?
And all that without a signed buyer? (be it foreign or Russian MoD) If that's true, it'd be a first. No arrangement like that exists in the world for a project of comparable scale to a modern fighter jet.
Not at all. It is quite normal in the Russian MIC that Ministry of Industry and/or the developer themselves pay for the first stages of the program and the military only commits when the product is essentially ready and free from technical risks, like happened with the Su-35. It is actually a smart way of making sure that the developer is not engaging in happy engineering at the expenses of the MoD and is only going to come up with proposals that actually make sense and are viable on their own.
It’s quite normal because it’s the same few people controlling the state, the industry and the state-owned banks that will nominally pay for everything. Hence they know that even if it proves to be an absolute dog (or not) the Russian state can be made to conveniently pick up the tab if required. Indeed the exercise, even if it ends up not being especially technically or commercially successful (and not saying it won’t be) will still serve an important purpose of spreading out payments to those individuals making these decisions and their clients (indeed may have the “happy” effect of extending or at least continuing to lubricate this circle of endemic corruption out into the very few remaining client states of Russia).
Unfortunately this is a pattern that appears to impact all current Russian “commercial” or pseudo-commercial projects and the wider Russian state as a whole.
 

DWG

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Moreover, the budget is fully aligned, both with the participation of programs of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, and extra-budgetary funds of Rostec and UAC.[/B]

Foreign participation is not excluded. Foreign customers can finance the creation of a two-seat fighter, said Manturov. Checkmate is primarily focused on deliveries to foreign markets, but do not forget about the supply of aircraft to the Russian troops, the minister added.

Sounds like state launch aid to me. Coming to a WTO tribunal the first time Boeing loses a deal to Checkmate?
 

DWG

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Those two last posts were just a joke, right?

If you're providing state launch aid for something targeted at export sales, then you may well find yourself in trouble with the WTO. Look at the WTO Airbus vs Boeing and Boeing vs Airbus cases for just how widely this can be applied. This positively leapt off the page at me when I read your post.
 

LMFS

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If you're providing state launch aid for something targeted at export sales, then you may well find yourself in trouble with the WTO. Look at the WTO Airbus vs Boeing and Boeing vs Airbus cases for just how widely this can be applied. This positively leapt off the page at me when I read your post.
You see state launch aid, while the rest of the world sees the true elephant in the room which is CAATSA
 

DWG

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You see state launch aid, while the rest of the world sees the true elephant in the room which is CAATSA

It doesn't matter. If it breaches WTO rules, then Sukhoi can potentially be sued in WTO courts, and sanctions levied on Russia's trade if the case is proved.

Sukhoi have potentially cut their own throat from the outset by being so openly adamant that Checkmate is targeted at export sales. If they now take launch aid from the Russian government, then it's extraordinarily easy to spin Checkmate's export price as subsidised by the Russian government, rather than reflecting its true market value.

I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know what the WTO is likely to decide, but Boeing has a history of using the WTO and the court of public opinion to try and sway competitions in its favour, so I wouldn't bet against them trying it against Checkmate.
 

TR1

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"Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed ....
to prevent any contracting party from taking any action which it considers necessary for the protection
of its essential security interests.....
relating to the traffic in arms, ammunition and implements of war and to such traffic in other
goods and materials as is carried on directly or indirectly for the purpose of supplying a military
establishment"
 

FighterJock

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So what happens if sanctions get in the way of the future export sales for Checkmate? Will the VKS buy some to stop Checkmate being cancelled?
 

totoro

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So, allegedly the development project is already financed? But not explicitly by the Russian MoD? Rather, by a non-defense ministry and by planemaker companies themselves?
And all that without a signed buyer? (be it foreign or Russian MoD) If that's true, it'd be a first. No arrangement like that exists in the world for a project of comparable scale to a modern fighter jet.
Not at all. It is quite normal in the Russian MIC that Ministry of Industry and/or the developer themselves pay for the first stages of the program and the military only commits when the product is essentially ready and free from technical risks, like happened with the Su-35. It is actually a smart way of making sure that the developer is not engaging in happy engineering at the expenses of the MoD and is only going to come up with proposals that actually make sense and are viable on their own.
I personally would not compare Su-35 program with LTS. One was based on an existing airframes of Su-27 and Su-30, which were then redesigned, and on built up technology base of both the Su-27M and Su-30MKI programs.
The other is based on... well, a little bit of Su-57 program experience. But going from Su-57 to a smaller, lighter, single engine design with a completely different layout is drastically different than going from the Flanker family to Su-35.
But once again, that's just me. Of course different people are free to make such a comparison.

Now, it's important for me to point out that I am NOT criticizing LTS or the way it may or may not be funded.
What I want to say is that I believe the officials are kind of bending the truth when they say stuff like
"it absolutely does not depend on foreign customers"
while in the same speech they also say
"Checkmate is primarily focused on deliveries to foreign markets"
and then say stuff like
"Moreover, the budget is fully aligned..."

Sure, they can say whatever they want. And people are free to interpret that as they wish. My personal interpretation of the LTS, which is based on how things usually go, including my own sense of Su-35 development/procurement, is this:

The plane maker companies had a paper design, an idea. Made on internal budget. They showed it some potential buyers, Russian MoD included, and got positive feedback, in the sense "we like what you have, and we may have room for such a plane in our plans"
More money was pumped into development. Another round of show and tell was made. No contract was made with anyone but I wouldn't be surprised in some letters of intent were signed with the MoD or any other (foreign) government. In the sense "We're interested. You make the prototype fly, and we'll sign a contract"

That's basically what happened with Su-35 in my opinion. To sign a contract, years of negotiations are needed. It was signed in mid 2009, and as early as mid 2008 media was quoting Russian Air force officials saying they hope Russian MoD will finance a procurement contract. So I'd say sometime during the phase of actual prototype engineering, Sukhoi had an arrangement with MoD that they might buy it if everything went smoothly enough.
Russian Mod contract was crucial for Su-35 program. As its export sales are not that big. Heck, the older and less capable Su-30s have been sold to more customers since Su35 first flew.

I believe Russian MoD order is going to be similarly crucial for LTS. And that there are already various talks and semi-guarantees for a future contract. I'll be very surprised if MoD does not order at least a token number of 24 or more LTS within a few years of first prototype flight. Such a move would both help finance the whole project (exact scale of help would depend on size of contract) and would help kickstart orders from other countries.

Alternatively, Russian MoD order may be replaced by a contract from another big government. But then the whole business arrangement may be closer to what Pakistan and China have with JF-17, with Pakistan paying for a good deal of development, and China's Chengdu doing most of the development work.

Time will tell, of course. LTS is a nice looking plane and I seriously hope it'll enjoy a fairly smooth development. And take its place in many countries' air forces, eventually. But smooth development does not work without money. And no sane business, be it government owned or not, will invest in development without some sort of agreements with potential buyers. I don't see LTS as merely a project to keep people employed and to swallow funds.
 

DWG

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"Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed ....
to prevent any contracting party from taking any action which it considers necessary for the protection of its essential security interests.....
relating to the traffic in arms, ammunition and implements of war and to such traffic in other
goods and materials as is carried on directly or indirectly for the purpose of supplying a military
establishment"

Interesting, but the section on interpretation quotes one of the original authors on their intentions:
"We cannot make it too tight, because we cannot prohibit measures which are needed purely for security reasons. On the other hand, we cannot make it so broad that, under the guise of security, countries will put on measures which really have a commercial purpose"
And that's the kind of declaration of intent judges use to shape their intepretation of the law.

By emphasising the intention is export sales, rather than defence, Sukhoi has created an arguable case that Article XXI doesn't apply. I'm not sure that it's a strong case, but it's probably arguable enough to keep a few lawyers in the style to which they've become accustomed.
 

riggerrob

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Wow!
A mere 50 days from first photos to first model!
What scale is it?

But we must caution you that you are disrupting Revell, Monogram, Tamiya, etc. business models. If you prove too successful, they might send you to their corporate Gulag.
Hah!
Hah!

Seriously, good work. Keep it up and let us know when you are ready to sell models to the general public.
 

LMFS

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What I want to say is that I believe the officials are kind of bending the truth when they say stuff like
"it absolutely does not depend on foreign customers"
while in the same speech they also say
"Checkmate is primarily focused on deliveries to foreign markets"
and then say stuff like
"Moreover, the budget is fully aligned..."
I think it is fairly simple: Russia sees expedient to create the plane and sees both an internal and export market for it, so a budget has been granted. Requirements of MoD are known and the development harmonized with them, all that greatly facilitated by the fact that these are all state owned companies and therefore aligned with the needs of the country. But at the time being (early development phase) there is no hard commitment from MoD and therefore the presentation of the plane is mainly focused to foreign customers, since it never hurts to secure extra money. As said, this is essentially the same that already happened with Su-35 and other planes, if the idea works, the VKS will buy. And if no foreign country wants to participate in the development, they will simply lose the chance for customized design, ToT, reduced prices, share of the IP and so on. The plane will be developed regardless and countries can simply buy off the shelf at a later stage.

Original statements to RIA:

"It does not depend at all on foreign customers. Moreover, we have a budget for this completely drawn up, both with the participation of the programs of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, and extra-budgetary funds of Rostec and UAC. As for foreign participation, this is not excluded," he said on margins of the Eastern Economic Forum (EEF).

According to him, foreign customers can finance the creation of a two-seat fighter.

"Foreign colleagues often ask for a two-seat solution - for example, in a two-seat version, we can attract our foreign partners. Although, once again, we can do it ourselves - a matter of relevance," he explained.

According to him, Checkmate is focused primarily on supplies to foreign markets. At the same time, Manturov noted, one should not forget about the adoption of the aircraft by the Russian army.

"But, once again, this is in the process of making a decision," Manturov added.

 
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Bhurki

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I don't see LTS as merely a project to keep people employed and to swallow funds.
That won't stop it from going the way Mig-35 program has gone despite all the PR injection, if no foreign interest materializes.
And as compared to Mig-35, which was no more than rehash from mig-29 upg, LTS would require much higher investment for development.
 

Avimimus

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For what it is worth, here is my take:

Russia's main requirements are for an air-superiority multi-role Sukhoi Su-27 successor, a long range bomber with stand-off weapons, and a short range tactical bomber. Most of their available budget is going towards these projects.

I can see why money would be coming from industrial branches of the Russian government rather than the military. If it gets some export orders - it keeps factories open and designers busy - helping to retain skills and capacity until the time a 6th generation platform of some sort can be afforded... it helps bridge the period until the 2050s...

The LTS replaces more affordable but aging export fighters (e.g. Mig-35) and having such a replacement allows for continued 'mig diplomacy'. As a light strike platform it is more capable than the Yak-130... so it may be able to fit into a Su-25 successor role. Being more affordable it also potentially gives an option to purchase a reasonable number of aircraft eventually for the Russian air force without crippling other projects.
 

helmutkohl

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Wow!
A mere 50 days from first photos to first model!
What scale is it?

But we must caution you that you are disrupting Revell, Monogram, Tamiya, etc. business models. If you prove too successful, they might send you to their corporate Gulag.
Hah!
Hah!

Seriously, good work. Keep it up and let us know when you are ready to sell models to the general public.
as far as models go
in Japan, some one already built a flying model.
perhaps the first flying Su-75 of any size and shape lol

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_reYTGS9Wo
 

TR1

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I don't see LTS as merely a project to keep people employed and to swallow funds.
That won't stop it from going the way Mig-35 program has gone despite all the PR injection, if no foreign interest materializes.
And as compared to Mig-35, which was no more than rehash from mig-29 upg, LTS would require much higher investment for development.
The MiG-35 is not a rehash of the MiG-29UPG at all.

To date the MiG-35 is just rebranded MiG-29M2, which is in turn an offshoot of MiG-29K. MiG has sold quite a few of the "2nd gen" MiG-29 family as well.
 

AleDucat

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782c22116c16f05fa6696330a6e88408.jpg


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(...)
But I keep (super)cruising
Can't stop, won't stop grooving (throught the sky)
It's like I got this music in my mind
Saying it's gonna be alright
'Cause the players gonna play, play, play, play, play (a flight sim)
And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate
(...)
Taylor Swift and I
 

Maury Markowitz

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I must have missed it earlier in the thread - what is the hexagonal object on the bottom in front of the weapon bay?
 

Acatomic

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What does this part mean exactly? -> "In the basic version, the system can be supplimented with landing and defence stations."

 

Saber

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What does this part mean exactly? -> "In the basic version, the system can be supplimented with landing and defence stations."

Well, guessing by the fact there are no laser turrets on the top and bottom like there are on the Su-57, I guess they mean they could add more to the system? There are many laser defense systems in Russian service, they were one of the first if not the first early adopter of them IIRC, but the Su-57's laser turrets are unique as they also have imaging functions as well apparently.

Judging by phrasing, it's probable that they would add laser defense functionality onto the system, as for landing, no idea, something similar perhaps to how the Su-57 has one of it's short range missile bays equipped with a forward looking thermal imager, apparently for landing and low level flight. Though I think it also provides general observation as well, as Su-57 lacks the imaging sensor next to the OLS compared to the Su-35.

In all honesty it's kind of a strange setup in general for Su-57 and the LTS, especially compared to the conventional and straightforward Su-35 setup when you look at documentation for the systems in general.
 

DWG

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What does this part mean exactly? -> "In the basic version, the system can be supplimented with landing and defence stations."

I think you probably need to see the original Russian to get a sense of the intent, maybe just that you can add extra sensors for FLIR/situational awareness, not just targetting. ROSTEC need to get a better translator/English speaker for their tweets, it's not the first time I've noticed mangled English and they're doing themselves no favours.
 

Avimimus

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What does this part mean exactly? -> "In the basic version, the system can be supplimented with landing and defence stations."
I think you probably need to see the original Russian to get a sense of the intent, maybe just that you can add extra sensors for FLIR/situational awareness, not just targetting. ROSTEC need to get a better translator/English speaker for their tweets, it's not the first time I've noticed mangled English and they're doing themselves no favours.

Yeah, they are clearly getting better though :) I'm still amused by one promotional video which described the Ka-50 as despatching targets with 'plausible deniability'
 

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The Ministry of Defense may consider the purchase of Checkmate fighters under the GPV
Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov pointed out that foreign customers are always interested in whether the native armed forces take the equipment they offer for export.


 

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stealthflanker

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The Ministry of Defense may consider the purchase of Checkmate fighters under the GPV
Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov pointed out that foreign customers are always interested in whether the native armed forces take the equipment they offer for export.




This is a good path. as yes someone like say..Indonesia always interested in stuff being mass produced or in the owner country's standard. the only exception is Su-27SKM.
buying goods already proven tried and true in the origin country is kind of good scheme that most if not all of the bugs are worked out and a steady stream of parts, experienced training are available.
 
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