GUNDAM123dx
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Was there any soviet guided weapon research in ww2?
Soviet WW2 guided weapon
- Thread starter GUNDAM123dx
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Not during ww2 !
Silencer1
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Hi, GUNDAM123dx
Some works on the external guidance of torpedo-boats and torpedo-carrying glider have been conducted from 1930s:
Perhaps, you would narrowed your's query for the type of weapons: air-to-air, air-to-surface etc?
Some works on the external guidance of torpedo-boats and torpedo-carrying glider have been conducted from 1930s:
Perhaps, you would narrowed your's query for the type of weapons: air-to-air, air-to-surface etc?
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
There were some use, mostly of pre-war projects that were in developement state. For example:
* Remote-controlled TB-3 heavy bombers were used as big flying bombs, guided from control plane.
It was a long pre-war developement program of creating remote control system for different types of warplanes. The radio system used acoustic tones to modulate several commands for the control system onboard the plane. In 1934-1938, several remote-controlled flights were done, including takeoff and touchdown.
In March 1942, there were an attempt to use remote-controlled TB-3, filled with explosives, to attack Vyazma railroad node, but the control plane came under heavy flak fire, and some fragment cut the aerial. Control over drone was lost, and it crashed near Vitebsk with tremendous explosion. Another remote-controlled bomber was prepared, but was destroyed on ground due to accidental fire. Since there were only a few control sets left, the whole project was cancelled.
* Tracked mine ("Elektrotorpeda") ET-1-627 was deployed in limited numbers in 1942.
It was a wire-controlled tracked mine, somewhat similar to Vechicule Kegresse/Goliath, made on wooden frame from the small tractor parts. The electrical motor were used.
About 100 machines were build, and were used with some effect in 1942, mainly in Kerch (when they are credited for destroying nine German tanks), and near Leningrad. There were some ideas about further development, including the flamethrower-equipped variant for attacking trenches, but the disadvantages of the whole tracked mine concept were quickly realized. So, the project was cancelled after the initial series.
Also, some old "teletanks" (worn-out tanks, rebuild into radio-controlled demolition vehicles) were used during Moscow defense and in early 1942.
* Remote-controlled torpedo boats of G-5 type (were called "katera volnovogo upravlenia", i.e. "wave-controlled motorboats")
*
Pre-war program of remote-controlled torpedo boats, that could be guided by planes to make torpedo runs against enemy fleet. In 1943, some were used on Black Sea as explosive boats, filled with explosives. The results were mixed; the control system was developed in early 1930s, and was quite outdated and unreliable.
There were also pre-war works on remote-controlled torpedo glider, that was supposed to be guided on target by following the narrow infrared beam. Several prototypes were build and tested, but when the war started, the program was cancelled due to more urgent need (attacking enemy ships in sea weren't exactly USSR top priority).
* Remote-controlled TB-3 heavy bombers were used as big flying bombs, guided from control plane.
It was a long pre-war developement program of creating remote control system for different types of warplanes. The radio system used acoustic tones to modulate several commands for the control system onboard the plane. In 1934-1938, several remote-controlled flights were done, including takeoff and touchdown.
In March 1942, there were an attempt to use remote-controlled TB-3, filled with explosives, to attack Vyazma railroad node, but the control plane came under heavy flak fire, and some fragment cut the aerial. Control over drone was lost, and it crashed near Vitebsk with tremendous explosion. Another remote-controlled bomber was prepared, but was destroyed on ground due to accidental fire. Since there were only a few control sets left, the whole project was cancelled.
* Tracked mine ("Elektrotorpeda") ET-1-627 was deployed in limited numbers in 1942.
It was a wire-controlled tracked mine, somewhat similar to Vechicule Kegresse/Goliath, made on wooden frame from the small tractor parts. The electrical motor were used.
About 100 machines were build, and were used with some effect in 1942, mainly in Kerch (when they are credited for destroying nine German tanks), and near Leningrad. There were some ideas about further development, including the flamethrower-equipped variant for attacking trenches, but the disadvantages of the whole tracked mine concept were quickly realized. So, the project was cancelled after the initial series.
Also, some old "teletanks" (worn-out tanks, rebuild into radio-controlled demolition vehicles) were used during Moscow defense and in early 1942.
* Remote-controlled torpedo boats of G-5 type (were called "katera volnovogo upravlenia", i.e. "wave-controlled motorboats")
*
Pre-war program of remote-controlled torpedo boats, that could be guided by planes to make torpedo runs against enemy fleet. In 1943, some were used on Black Sea as explosive boats, filled with explosives. The results were mixed; the control system was developed in early 1930s, and was quite outdated and unreliable.
There were also pre-war works on remote-controlled torpedo glider, that was supposed to be guided on target by following the narrow infrared beam. Several prototypes were build and tested, but when the war started, the program was cancelled due to more urgent need (attacking enemy ships in sea weren't exactly USSR top priority).
Silencer1
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IMHO, it's important to note, that most of above mentioned items more precisely could be named "remotely piloted (operated) vehicles".
Even as some of them dispensable, one-way, self-destruct, they differes from the most of the "guided weapons" by their cost, complexity, size.
As we talk about "guided weapons", I prefer to discuss missiles, bombs etc., and spilt topic from the RPVs, mentioned above. They deserve their own thread.
Even as some of them dispensable, one-way, self-destruct, they differes from the most of the "guided weapons" by their cost, complexity, size.
As we talk about "guided weapons", I prefer to discuss missiles, bombs etc., and spilt topic from the RPVs, mentioned above. They deserve their own thread.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Well, French/German Vehicule K/Goliath - is it a guided weapon?
Or "Aphrodite" US B-17 based drones?
Frankly, I think that any unmanned system capable of controlling its course is a guided weapon by definition)
Silencer1
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Dear Dilandu!
IMHO, without GUNDAM123dx' own definition of the subject' that he interested our discussion is fruitless, depsite many curious weapons, that have been mentioned.
If we would talk about "guidance", my own point is that this feature is more important regarding increased accuracy of ammunition.
Of course, word "weapon" characterized "ammunition as well, but not vise versa.
Perhaps, we should wait to topic' starter's opinion.
IMHO, without GUNDAM123dx' own definition of the subject' that he interested our discussion is fruitless, depsite many curious weapons, that have been mentioned.
If we would talk about "guidance", my own point is that this feature is more important regarding increased accuracy of ammunition.
Of course, word "weapon" characterized "ammunition as well, but not vise versa.
Perhaps, we should wait to topic' starter's opinion.
World B4
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Bottleship
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From "Stalin's superbombers", Kotelnikov:
"Telefighters" - radiocontrolled I-16. KB-21 tested I-16 with 400 kg of explosives. Ostehbyuro created only project, with 200 kg of explosives.
Radiocontrolled cruise missiles ("aerotorpedoes") for TB-3, project of RNII - full weight 180 kg, 38 kg of explosives, range to 5 km. Planned, use of two missiles from TB-3.
1935, "self-target air torpedo" with "photielectric" targeting (to light source), speed no less 900 kmph, range 15-20 km. Homing head tested on glider.
Radiocontrolled glider-torpedo PSN-1, range 15 km. Two programms - use like a bomb, or use like a mini-bomber, for later use. Planned, use on TB-3 two PSN-1. And, photo with PSN-1 on airbase. In 1936-37 31 launch completed (two - with radio control). In early 1938 works at PSN-1 was stopped, and started works with PSN-2, and, later, planned use on DB-3 bomber.
TMS-36 - one TB-3, comander, and two guided TB-1. Takeoff of TB-1 - with pilots who parachuted. Control system - "Dedal".
Range of control 15-20 km.
Plans - from airplane-bomb, to programmable bomber.
Works at TB-3, "minimum" - huge bomb, "maximum" - guided bomber.
Guided variant of "Mistel", KR-6 and TB-3-bomb. Load of TB-3 - 3.5 ton of explosives or chemical warfare agents, range 1200 km. Later, worked at variant with two TB-3, one comander and one airplane-bomb. Work was closed at 1938, but, later, restarted.
...
About "Teletanks" - projected huge variant, based on T-35.
...
I found many projected of "wunderwaffe" in Russian Empire and in USSR. Soviet engineers continued many old projects, and, if I found, for example, Soviet guided landmine, probably, later, I found analogical project from WW1 period or earlier. And vice versa, if something was invented in Russian Empire, then it MANDATORY in the USSR there was the same or similar project. I'm not a found of many Soviet projects of guided weapon, but, I found this projects in imperial period:
- Guided torpedo, engineer I. Nikolayev, 1876:
(you can see wire)
- Guided torpedo, artillerist Nemira, 1887 (only idea) - with wire
- Guided and self-target torpedoes, engineer Pilchikov, 1898-1903
- Guided radiocontrolled explosive motor boat, engineer Pilchikov, 1901-1905 (tests - closed due to Russian revolution 1905-1907)
- Radiocontrolled explosion initiation, engineer Pilchikov, 1898-1905 (tests; in WW2 in USSR used a radiocontrolled bombs)
- Guided torpedoes - radiocontrolled or with wires, naval engineers, pre-WW1 period (works stopped in 1914)
- Guided landmine - many tests at 1914-1917
- Guided aircrafts - engineer Ulyanin, 1914
- Light guided helicopter-bomber with primitive camera ("upgrade telephot") - N. G. Mstislavskiy, 1917 (project)
"Telefighters" - radiocontrolled I-16. KB-21 tested I-16 with 400 kg of explosives. Ostehbyuro created only project, with 200 kg of explosives.
Radiocontrolled cruise missiles ("aerotorpedoes") for TB-3, project of RNII - full weight 180 kg, 38 kg of explosives, range to 5 km. Planned, use of two missiles from TB-3.
1935, "self-target air torpedo" with "photielectric" targeting (to light source), speed no less 900 kmph, range 15-20 km. Homing head tested on glider.
Radiocontrolled glider-torpedo PSN-1, range 15 km. Two programms - use like a bomb, or use like a mini-bomber, for later use. Planned, use on TB-3 two PSN-1. And, photo with PSN-1 on airbase. In 1936-37 31 launch completed (two - with radio control). In early 1938 works at PSN-1 was stopped, and started works with PSN-2, and, later, planned use on DB-3 bomber.
TMS-36 - one TB-3, comander, and two guided TB-1. Takeoff of TB-1 - with pilots who parachuted. Control system - "Dedal".
Range of control 15-20 km.
Plans - from airplane-bomb, to programmable bomber.
Works at TB-3, "minimum" - huge bomb, "maximum" - guided bomber.
Guided variant of "Mistel", KR-6 and TB-3-bomb. Load of TB-3 - 3.5 ton of explosives or chemical warfare agents, range 1200 km. Later, worked at variant with two TB-3, one comander and one airplane-bomb. Work was closed at 1938, but, later, restarted.
...
About "Teletanks" - projected huge variant, based on T-35.
...
I found many projected of "wunderwaffe" in Russian Empire and in USSR. Soviet engineers continued many old projects, and, if I found, for example, Soviet guided landmine, probably, later, I found analogical project from WW1 period or earlier. And vice versa, if something was invented in Russian Empire, then it MANDATORY in the USSR there was the same or similar project. I'm not a found of many Soviet projects of guided weapon, but, I found this projects in imperial period:
- Guided torpedo, engineer I. Nikolayev, 1876:
(you can see wire)
- Guided torpedo, artillerist Nemira, 1887 (only idea) - with wire
- Guided and self-target torpedoes, engineer Pilchikov, 1898-1903
- Guided radiocontrolled explosive motor boat, engineer Pilchikov, 1901-1905 (tests - closed due to Russian revolution 1905-1907)
- Radiocontrolled explosion initiation, engineer Pilchikov, 1898-1905 (tests; in WW2 in USSR used a radiocontrolled bombs)
- Guided torpedoes - radiocontrolled or with wires, naval engineers, pre-WW1 period (works stopped in 1914)
- Guided landmine - many tests at 1914-1917
- Guided aircrafts - engineer Ulyanin, 1914
- Light guided helicopter-bomber with primitive camera ("upgrade telephot") - N. G. Mstislavskiy, 1917 (project)
Last edited:
The Germans led this field with the V-1 and V-2. The Mistel concept and various airborne missiles were either used or tested. On the ground there was the Goliath and a few radio-controlled vehicles for demolishing occupied buildings and other strong-points. Thank you Iron Felix for posting information about Russian work I had not seen before.
Bottleship
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(I added information to the previous post)
And (so you don't think that I came up with Russian guided weapons from 1876 to 1917), guided torpedoes, created by British (Brennan) and American (other) engineers, 1870-1900:
Ericsson, 1870:
Ericsson, 1873-78 (builted in 1873):
Lay, 1872-1880:
Smith, 1873 (wire):
Brennan, 1874-1887:
Tesla, 1897 (radio):
And, I'm not found a guided torpedoes in USSR to 1945.
And (so you don't think that I came up with Russian guided weapons from 1876 to 1917), guided torpedoes, created by British (Brennan) and American (other) engineers, 1870-1900:
Ericsson, 1870:
Ericsson, 1873-78 (builted in 1873):
Lay, 1872-1880:
Smith, 1873 (wire):
Brennan, 1874-1887:
Tesla, 1897 (radio):
And, I'm not found a guided torpedoes in USSR to 1945.
Temistocle
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Doing some research for another topic, some time ago I found very little information about soviet radio controlled torpedoes, in a couple of Russian books and links (sorry, I am not absolutely fluent in Russian):
1) V. Kotelnikov "Giant aircraft of the USSR", 2009, p. 108 (Котельников, Самолеты-гиганты СССР).
Google translation: Work was underway on radio-controlled torpedoes, in particular, TAN-12RUT and TAV-27RUT. The control post was located on the torpedo bomber, from where the operator issued commands. The operator should navigate through the bright colored lights on the upper surface of the torpedo.
RUT (РУТ) means "радиоуправляемой торпедой", radio controlled torpedo.
2) M. Мирослав, Торпедоносцы Великой Отечественной Их звали смертниками, 2011, Эксмо (M. Miroslav - Torpedo bombers of the Great Patriotic War They were called suicide bomber):
Page 14
Октябрь 1934 r. - октябрь 1936 г. Полигонные исnытания радиоуnравляемых торпед РУТ-45, Акула-1 и Акула-2 конструкции Остехбюро. Хотя испытания nрошли успешно, из-за необходимости внести ряд доработок торпеды на вооружение не приняты.
Google translate: October 1934 r. - October 1936 Testing sites of radio-controlled torpedoes RUT-45, Shark-1 and Shark-2 designed by Ostekhbyuro. Although the tests have been successful, due to the need to make a number of improvements to the torpedo weapons have not been accepted.
Page 25
В ноябре 1931 г. УВВС выдало техническое задание на проектирование радиоуправляемой торпеды СУ со световой сигнал изацией о местоположении. П редусматривались две ее разновидности - 24-дюймовая с зарядом 320 кг и 27-дюймовая с зарядом 500 кг. Последняя могла нанести серьезные повреждения даже линкору. В НИМТИ работал и и еще над одним типом радиоуnравляемой торnеды - РУТ калибром 18 дюймов.
Google translate: In November 1931, the Air Defense Forces issued technical specifications for the design of a radio-controlled torpedo SU with a light signal about the location. Two of its varieties were envisaged - 24-inch with a charge of 320 kg and 27-inch with a charge of 500 kg. The latter could cause serious damage even to the battleship. He also worked at NIMTI on one more type of radio-controlled torpedo - the RUT 18-inch caliber.
3) The link below is "КРАТКИЕ ОЧЕРКИ ИСТОРИИ ВНИИРТ "(BRIEF STORIES OF VNIIRT'S HISTORY), about the All-Russian Research Institute of Radio Engineering, i.e Ostekhburo.
КРАТКИЕ ОЧЕРКИ ИСТОРИИ ВНИИРТ
There is a very short info, when they talk about radio controlled torpedo BOATS:
Успешно была выполнена и разработка управляемых по радио торпед.
Google translation: The development of radio-controlled torpedoes was also successfully completed. (nothing else).
4) there is also the following image, without caption and reference, taken from
Охотники за линкорами 2. Легавые закрытых морей
The article is about alternative shipbuilding, but in the radio-controlled torpedo description the author says it was a real 1940 project:
Взяв прежние разработки Остехбюро по радиоуправлению торпедными катерами, они создали… радиоуправляемую торпеду! Торпеда шла под самой поверхностью воды, выставив наружу лишь рамочную приёмную антенну на двух тонких обтекаемых стойках, поднимающихся из корпуса после выхода торпеды из аппарата и фару-маячок, на верхушке задней стройке антенны, развернутую назад. Таким образом, выстрелив торпеду с предельной дальности и наблюдая по свечению фары её курс, оператор мог навести торпеду на цель при помощи радиоуправления со стопроцентной точностью. (Эта система отнюдь не моя выдумка, а вполне реальный советский довоенный проект).
Google translate: The article is about alternative shipbuilding, but in the radio-controlled torpedo description the author says it was a real 1940 projectTaking the previous developments of the Ostekhbyuro on radio control of torpedo boats, they created ... a radio-controlled torpedo! The torpedo went under the very surface of the water, exposing only the frame receiving antenna on two thin streamlined racks, rising from the hull after the torpedo exited the device and a headlamp-beacon, at the top of the rear antenna building, turned back. Thus, by firing a torpedo from its ultimate range and observing its course by the headlamps glow, the operator could aim the torpedo at the target using radio control with absolute accuracy. (This system is by no means my invention, but a very real Soviet pre-war project).
The radio controlled torpedo is the second from the bottom, type 61-39FR, with a radio aerial stretched between two masts (maybe the sketch is totally invented).
F = форсированная (boosted?), R = радиоуправляемая (radio controlled).
The author gives also some data:
Year: 1940
Types: 61-39F and 61-39FR
Diameter: 610 mm
Length: 8.1 m
Weight: 2500 kg
Warhead: 350 kg
Range/Speed: 10000/45, 5000/50 meters/knots
Note that in this case everything could be invented, image included.
*****************************
So it seems that at least there were these RC torpedo projects:
1) TAN-12RUT: 450 mm (18 inch), derived from TAN-12 (derived from 45-12, a 450 mm torpedo designed in 1912), and TAV-27RUT: 533 mm (21 inch) derived from the high altitude, parachute dropped TAV-27 (derived from the 53-27 weapon of 1927). Tested in middle of '30?
2) RUT-45 (450 mm, is it TAN-12RUT?), Shark-1 and Shark-2 (??). Tested in 1934-36.
3) 24-inch with a charge of 320 kg and 27-inch with a charge of 500 kg, and RUT 18-inch (is it again TAN-12RUT?). Tested in ??
4) 61-39FP (610 mm, 24 inch) (fake?). Tested in 1940.
I am pretty sure there are some other infos about soviet radio controlled torpedoes of the '30-'40 in the web and in other books. Maybe the Russian speaking members could help...
Regards,
Bottleship
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About APSS submarine (one of variants - radiocontrolled):
en.topwar.ru
...
Projected radiocontrolled (with use of radiobeacons) bomber, based on RD (ANT-25), with load 500 kg, and, for bombing any target in the northern hemisphere. I don't know - it's a starndart RD with radio equipment, or, it's a one of projects, based pn RD. I know about:
- Early suggested variant with decrease of fuel weight - from 6 ton to 1-2 ton, for load 4-5 ton of chemical warfare agents.
- DB-1 (Dalniy Bombardirovshink - long range bomber) - full range over 13 000 km (with speed 165 kmph)
- ANT-36 (other name of DB-1?) - planned, with 10x100-kg bombs
- ANT-36 with Charomsky AN-1 diesel engine, or RDD - range over 25 000 km
- DB-2 - I haven't data about this bomber, based on DB-1 or ANT-36
...
- BEMI bombs (used in WW2)
- Bunkers with flamethrowers (on 1300 litres) and Maxim machine guns with water pumping system (firing from bunkers - by program, control only for start of firing)
- Locomotives
- Motobronevagon (motor armoured railway carriage) "Uragan" ("Hurricane") with several hundreds kilograms of strong toxic substance
- Bronemotodrezina (armoured motor draisine) "Smerch" ("Whirlwind" or "Tornado") with flamethrowers and toxic substance sprayers
- Torpedo boats (Sh-4 and G-5)
Stalin's unmanned submarines
Today, unmanned vehicles are widely represented on the battlefields, but their first full-fledged debut was the Second World War. Even before the war in the USSR, remote-controlled tanks and tankettes of various types were actively tested, and then produced. Teletank could be controlled by radio
en.topwar.ru
Projected radiocontrolled (with use of radiobeacons) bomber, based on RD (ANT-25), with load 500 kg, and, for bombing any target in the northern hemisphere. I don't know - it's a starndart RD with radio equipment, or, it's a one of projects, based pn RD. I know about:
- Early suggested variant with decrease of fuel weight - from 6 ton to 1-2 ton, for load 4-5 ton of chemical warfare agents.
- DB-1 (Dalniy Bombardirovshink - long range bomber) - full range over 13 000 km (with speed 165 kmph)
- ANT-36 (other name of DB-1?) - planned, with 10x100-kg bombs
- ANT-36 with Charomsky AN-1 diesel engine, or RDD - range over 25 000 km
- DB-2 - I haven't data about this bomber, based on DB-1 or ANT-36
...
- BEMI bombs (used in WW2)
- Bunkers with flamethrowers (on 1300 litres) and Maxim machine guns with water pumping system (firing from bunkers - by program, control only for start of firing)
- Locomotives
- Motobronevagon (motor armoured railway carriage) "Uragan" ("Hurricane") with several hundreds kilograms of strong toxic substance
- Bronemotodrezina (armoured motor draisine) "Smerch" ("Whirlwind" or "Tornado") with flamethrowers and toxic substance sprayers
- Torpedo boats (Sh-4 and G-5)
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