South American Tanks

Davis.Kyle

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Hello All,

I was redirected here from the good folks at tank.net for asking some questions about a few quite tanks from the South Americas.

Hello All,

I am an avid researcher of pre-composite and modern FCS armor of the world, and a certain blueprint locked away in a Brazillian PDF made me wonder... why have I never heard about this tank before?

In the early 1970s Rheinmetall made a series of proposals of a group of combat vehicles suited for South America. This was marketed for a number of nations including Argentina and Brazil. Part of this series was a depiction of what would become the TAM.

Another tank brought forward was this thing. I have never seen it before. It was German, proposed and rejected somewhat before the X-30 (What became the MB-3 Tamayo) was brought to it's eventual prototype status.

TYGp20G.png


The PDF linked has almost nothing about it, and I can't seem to find any other information online.

This tank was propsed by Gesellschaft für Systemtechnik, probably a division of Krupp.

They were proposing a lot of others vehicles in the era, like "grasshopper" vehicles. (The WW2 Bren Carrier Modification)
Hi everybody

DE3316068A1
Gepanzertes Fahrzeug ( Daimler Benz EXF 8x8 chassis)
Porsche AG 1983

DE8514264U1
Stabilisierter Mastschaft für elevierbare Waffenplattform auf Teleskoparm (z.B. für Tieffliegerabwehr) für Kampffahrzeuge der 3. Generation

DE2622995A1
Kampf- und Beobachtungsfahrzeug
GST Gesellschaft für Systemtechnik 1976
Many greetings

Do you recognize MBT 35t Proposal 2?
 

Apophenia

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I missed this thread the first time around. Very interesting!

Gesellschaft für Systemtechnik mbH (GST) of Essen was indeed a 100%-owned subsidiary of Krupp-Konzern - specifically Fried. Krupp GmbH (now Thyssen Krupp). GST is best-known for the Zobel 4x4 light recce vehicle. So I was a bit surprised that the 8x8 Gepanzertes Fahrzeug came from Porsche while the tracked Kampf- und Beobachtungsfahrzeug was the GST concept

As you said, the Brazilian pdf gave few details. It translates something like this:

"In this same proposal, the design of a Carro de Combate in the 35 ton class was presented. [This] proposal featured hydropneumatic suspension, a maximum speed of 70 km/h, a 670 hp diesel engine, a 105mm L-7 cannon, and a crew of three. It seems that vehicle was never built by the Germans."

So who, specifically, was responsible for this design? The author doesn't enlighten us. Do you know Deadlybirds?

"In this same proposal" suggests that the 35-ton tank proposal may have also come from Thyssen Henschel. The track arrangement looks very much like the FlaPz Z 30 (RU 222) prototype from the same era (whose chassis was something of a back-to-front version of the slightly earlier Thyssen Henschel Spähpanzer Kette prototypes.


BTW: Thanks for the patent links. I thought that the Gepanzertes Fahrzeug drawings were worth reproducing here ...
 

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Wyvern

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I found some interesting tanks from Brazil:

The XLF-40:
1585136523990.png
1585136555302.png
1585136589641.png


https://flic.kr/p/AYQLNz

The X1A, X1A1 and X1A2:
1585137121663.png
1585137144873.png
1585137194386.png


EE T-1 Osorio

1585149284036.png
1585149321985.png


 

Petrus

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Somewhere on the Facebook I have found info on a vehicle developed in Brazil that was based on the Stuart tank, namely a mortar carrier designated as Viatura Blindada de Combate, Morteiro 120mm, XM3B1.
The first version of the mortar carrier had the mortar mounted in the rear compartment (as in self-propelled mortars based on the M113 APC). Unfortunately it turned out that the hull and suspension were too weak to withstand the mortar recoil, which caused fractures. So a modification of the vehicle was developed: now mortar barrel, bipod (and ammunition, obviously) were to be carried in the rear, but the base plate was to be mounted on the vehicle's glacis. Therefore the mortar must have been reassembled on the ground before firing and disassembled when leaving the position. My guess is that such a procedure was so cumbersome that the project was cancelled.

Piotr
 

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GTX

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Maybe the wrong area for this post but I have heard there is a chance of Brazil ordering some M1A1 Abrams tanks. Has anyone heard anything else confirming this?
 

Wyvern

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I couldn't find anything as of now, however, I'll do a bit more digging tomorrow
 

Wyvern

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I also found a picture with an up-gunned variant. Was this real or is this some form of fictional artwork? If it is real, does anyone have any further documents or pictures related to it?

1585161739616.png
 

TomS

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I couldn't find anything as of now, however, I'll do a bit more digging tomorrow

Rumors that either M1s or M1A1s are on offer.

 

robunos

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I also found a picture with an up-gunned variant. Was this real or is this some form of fictional artwork? If it is real, does anyone have any further documents or pictures related to it?

View attachment 629669
I'm calling BS on that, looking at the 'upgunned variant', it's just a Tiger II turret and t-72 type external fuel tank cut-and-pasted on to the Nahuel drawing . . .

cheers,
Robin.
 

Wyvern

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I couldn't find anything as of now, however, I'll do a bit more digging tomorrow

Rumors that either M1s or M1A1s are on offer.



Thanks!
 

gral_rj

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I couldn't find anything as of now, however, I'll do a bit more digging tomorrow

Rumors that either M1s or M1A1s are on offer.



Thanks!
Hmm. The US may have offered them, and the Brazilian Army certainly is buying US equipment(M198, M109A5), but as far as I can tell, the Brazilian Army wouldn't be interested in 105mm gun-M1s - they consider the M60A3 TTS too heavy for most Brazilian infrastructure, AFAIK, M1s would be an improvement over them, but not in firepower. 120mm gun-M1s, OTOH, would probably be gladly accepted by the Brazilian Army(even if the preferred future option seems to be the Leopard 2).
 

TomS

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Hmm. The US may have offered them, and the Brazilian Army certainly is buying US equipment(M198, M109A5), but as far as I can tell, the Brazilian Army wouldn't be interested in 105mm gun-M1s - they consider the M60A3 TTS too heavy for most Brazilian infrastructure, AFAIK, M1s would be an improvement over them, but not in firepower. 120mm gun-M1s, OTOH, would probably be gladly accepted by the Brazilian Army(even if the preferred future option seems to be the Leopard 2).

Brazil just put out a new tank requirement, and it would seem to rule out M1A1. Combat Weight under 50 tons seems to limit them to either a new design or some of the Westernized post-Soviet designs.


Project 'Viatura Blindada de Combate-Carro de Combate' (VBC-CC) points to an armoured fighting vehicle manned by a crew of four with a combat weight of less than 50 tonnes and maximum dimensions of 12 m in length and 4 m in width with a maximum hull height of 3 m. It is expected to have a top speed exceeding 60 km/h, a range of 400 km, and the ability to ford to a depth of 1 m and to be able to traverse a ditch or trench up to 2.5 m wide at maximum load.

The army is seeking a tracked chassis with a multi-fuel engine and semi-automatic or automatic transmission and a turret with manual and electric drive, with both offering low thermal and radar signatures. The turret must be armed with a stabilised, low-recoil 120 mm smoothbore main gun, a 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun, a remote-control weapon station armed with a 12.7 mm machine gun, and eight 76 mm smoke grenade launchers.
 
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Wyvern

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Does that mean they are considering the Osorio again?
 

TomS

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Does that mean they are considering the Osorio again?

I can't see how. Engesa went bankrupt in 1993 and I'd be shocked if the plans survived 25+ years.

Edit: Maybe someone who speaks Portugese can help me out here. The link below appears to be a requirements document for a program called VBB-CC dated from February 2020. And it matches the Jane's report in terms of dimensions and general performance. But it requires only a 105mm gun with 40 rounds of ammunition, based on a Google translation. But then it also wants a round that can penetrate 1200 mm RHA at 2000 meters, which might imply at least 120mm (this is well past the known limits of even 120mm APFSDS, I believe). And of course all of these are weighted requirements, so failing to meet any one of them (including weight) might not be disqualifying.

 
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Wyvern

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Finally got round to posting this, after a week of delay.

TAM (Tanque Argentino Mediano):

1585728103531.png

TH-300 (TAM-A prototype), as pointed out by COLDOWN
1585728221058.png 1585728137905.png


TAM 2C/IP
:
1585728369637.png
1585728391994.png
1585728435065.png
 
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Wyvern

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Some variants of the TAM:

TAM VCA 155:
1585728684219.png
1585728823711.png
1585728863804.png


TAM VCTP:
1585729480077.png 1585729459758.png
1585729509734.png

TAM VCLC:
1585729775340.png
1585729802515.png
https://flic.kr/p/QntubM
TAM VCRT:
1585730079648.png
 

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Wyvern

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The TAM VCA was based off of the TAP (Tanque Argentino Pesado - Argentine Heavy Tank), however, the turret was replaced with a Palmaria turret. It itself was based off of the TAM, however it was lengthened and its total weight was brought up to 40 tons.

1585730671947.png
 

Wyvern

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Does that mean they are considering the Osorio again?

I can't see how. Engesa went bankrupt in 1993 and I'd be shocked if the plans survived 25+ years.

Edit: Maybe someone who speaks Portugese can help me out here. The link below appears to be a requirements document for a program called VBB-CC dated from February 2020. And it matches the Jane's report in terms of dimensions and general performance. But it requires only a 105mm gun with 40 rounds of ammunition, based on a Google translation. But then it also wants a round that can penetrate 1200 mm RHA at 2000 meters, which might imply at least 120mm (this is well past the known limits of even 120mm APFSDS, I believe). And of course all of these are weighted requirements, so failing to meet any one of them (including weight) might not be disqualifying.


Could it be that they have been offered a variant of the TAM?
 

gral_rj

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Does that mean they are considering the Osorio again?

I can't see how. Engesa went bankrupt in 1993 and I'd be shocked if the plans survived 25+ years.

Edit: Maybe someone who speaks Portugese can help me out here. The link below appears to be a requirements document for a program called VBB-CC dated from February 2020. And it matches the Jane's report in terms of dimensions and general performance. But it requires only a 105mm gun with 40 rounds of ammunition, based on a Google translation. But then it also wants a round that can penetrate 1200 mm RHA at 2000 meters, which might imply at least 120mm (this is well past the known limits of even 120mm APFSDS, I believe). And of course all of these are weighted requirements, so failing to meet any one of them (including weight) might not be disqualifying.


At first glance, the Brazilian Army is asking for something like the Type 10 MBT, although that tank is expensive as hell. Also, it doesn't fulfill the 40 rounds minimum ammunition requirement.

As far as I know, after Engesa went bankrupt, all material regarding Osório, including documentation, became property of the Brazilian Army. This means, yes, that's quite possible the Osório plans still exist.

As for the requirements, the 105mm gun requirement is an absolute(that is, mandatory, in my understanding) requirement. However, what is listed is, again in my understanding, the minimum needed to pass this requirement. I don't know enough to comment on APFSDS performance, but I agree that what they are effectively asking for is a 120mm gun.
 

Wyvern

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I remember Engesa had made a wheeled fighting vehicle before their bankruptcy that could ultimately fit the requirement. I shall post about it within the next three hours once I get enough information and when I have the time, as I am currently busy.
 

gral_rj

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I remember Engesa had made a wheeled fighting vehicle before their bankruptcy that could ultimately fit the requirement. I shall post about it within the next three hours once I get enough information and when I have the time, as I am currently busy.
That would be the EE-17/EE-18 Sucuri. First prototype(EE-17) had the boomerang suspension of the EE-9 Cascavel and EE-11 Urutu and a 105mm gun(either GIAT or Oto-Melara, don't remember which one) on an oscillating turret. Second prototype was a redesign(called EE-18), had hydropneumatic suspension and a conventional turret.
 

natewillcome4you

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From Chile:

The Alacran was an attempt at a modern multirole halftrack

The Orca was a relatively heavy wheeled apc
 

dan_inbox

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That would be the EE-17/EE-18 Sucuri. First prototype(EE-17) had the boomerang suspension of the EE-9 Cascavel and EE-11 Urutu and a 105mm gun(either GIAT or Oto-Melara, don't remember which one) on an oscillating turret. Second prototype was a redesign(called EE-18), had hydropneumatic suspension and a conventional turret.
Brazil Engesa EE-17 Sucuri tank destroyer FL-12 turret.jpg
Brazil Engesa EE-18 Sucuri II tank destroyer.jpg
 

Wyvern

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In the 1970s, OTO Melara and Israeli Military Industries began a joint project to develop a 60mm High-Velocity Medium Support (HVMS) Gun. Although the project was deemed a success, neither the Italians nor the Israelis ever operated it, and soon, the joint-venture ended. The Chileans ordered an upgrade to their M4 Shermans and M24 Chaffees, which by now were long in the tooth, and these guns were fitted to them as an upgrade, requiring very little modification.

A more detailed analysis is available here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/emghbu
 

Wyvern

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The Pampero Mulitple Rocket Launch System is an Argentine MLRS based on the chassis of a Mercedes Unimog chassis, with a range of slightly over 10km and with a warhead weight of 10.5kg, with the ability to carry High Explosive, High Explosive-Incendiary and Inert warheads. All-up weight of the warhead is 30kg.

1591349233573.png
 

Wyvern

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Does that mean they are considering the Osorio again?

I can't see how. Engesa went bankrupt in 1993 and I'd be shocked if the plans survived 25+ years.

Edit: Maybe someone who speaks Portugese can help me out here. The link below appears to be a requirements document for a program called VBB-CC dated from February 2020. And it matches the Jane's report in terms of dimensions and general performance. But it requires only a 105mm gun with 40 rounds of ammunition, based on a Google translation. But then it also wants a round that can penetrate 1200 mm RHA at 2000 meters, which might imply at least 120mm (this is well past the known limits of even 120mm APFSDS, I believe). And of course all of these are weighted requirements, so failing to meet any one of them (including weight) might not be disqualifying.


At first glance, the Brazilian Army is asking for something like the Type 10 MBT, although that tank is expensive as hell. Also, it doesn't fulfill the 40 rounds minimum ammunition requirement.

As far as I know, after Engesa went bankrupt, all material regarding Osório, including documentation, became property of the Brazilian Army. This means, yes, that's quite possible the Osório plans still exist.

As for the requirements, the 105mm gun requirement is an absolute(that is, mandatory, in my understanding) requirement. However, what is listed is, again in my understanding, the minimum needed to pass this requirement. I don't know enough to comment on APFSDS performance, but I agree that what they are effectively asking for is a 120mm gun.


Maybe the TAM is a possibility, as it meets all the requirements, even though the production line was shut down in the 1990s.
 

Alexandre Julião

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Does that mean they are considering the Osorio again?

I can't see how. Engesa went bankrupt in 1993 and I'd be shocked if the plans survived 25+ years.

Edit: Maybe someone who speaks Portugese can help me out here. The link below appears to be a requirements document for a program called VBB-CC dated from February 2020. And it matches the Jane's report in terms of dimensions and general performance. But it requires only a 105mm gun with 40 rounds of ammunition, based on a Google translation. But then it also wants a round that can penetrate 1200 mm RHA at 2000 meters, which might imply at least 120mm (this is well past the known limits of even 120mm APFSDS, I believe). And of course all of these are weighted requirements, so failing to meet any one of them (including weight) might not be disqualifying.


At first glance, the Brazilian Army is asking for something like the Type 10 MBT, although that tank is expensive as hell. Also, it doesn't fulfill the 40 rounds minimum ammunition requirement.

As far as I know, after Engesa went bankrupt, all material regarding Osório, including documentation, became property of the Brazilian Army. This means, yes, that's quite possible the Osório plans still exist.

As for the requirements, the 105mm gun requirement is an absolute(that is, mandatory, in my understanding) requirement. However, what is listed is, again in my understanding, the minimum needed to pass this requirement. I don't know enough to comment on APFSDS performance, but I agree that what they are effectively asking for is a 120mm gun.


Yes. The Osorio became property of the Brazilian Army, as payment for the investment made in the design of that tank. If they wanted, they could put it into production, but there is no money for that. The army is concentrating its industrial efforts, to produce spare parts for the Leopard 1 tanks they bought, to upgrade them in the same way it was done with the M-41, but avoiding the mistakes made at that time.

The idea then, was to take advantage of the experience with the modifications made to the M-41 by the Bernardini company, to design a larger and more advanced version of that tank, which resulted in the construction of the MB-3 Tamoyo prototype. From then on, the Tamoyo would be developed further, advancing one step at a time, until it reached the level of tanks made by more developed countries.

However, the owner of Engesa being a better sales man, and even more important, having better political contacts in the government at the time, than the owner of Bernardini, convinced the army's top brass to invest in the Osório, which frankly speaking, we would not have technology to manufacture en masse anyway in the 80s. It was later revealed that the owner of Engesa influenced his contacts in the army, to convince Bernardini to build the Tamoyo prototypes, to participate in a fair competition against the Osório, which they never had the intention to do, and thus, bankrupt his rival company.

In the end, Engesa failed to sell the Osório to Saudi Arabia and use the money to supply it to the Brazilian army and the entire project fell apart.
 

riggerrob

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Somewhere on the Facebook I have found info on a vehicle developed in Brazil that was based on the Stuart tank, namely a mortar carrier designated as Viatura Blindada de Combate, Morteiro 120mm, XM3B1.
The first version of the mortar carrier had the mortar mounted in the rear compartment (as in self-propelled mortars based on the M113 APC). Unfortunately it turned out that the hull and suspension were too weak to withstand the mortar recoil, which caused fractures. So a modification of the vehicle was developed: now mortar barrel, bipod (and ammunition, obviously) were to be carried in the rear, but the base plate was to be mounted on the vehicle's glacis. Therefore the mortar must have been reassembled on the ground before firing and disassembled when leaving the position. My guess is that such a procedure was so cumbersome that the project was cancelled.

Piotr

How many infantry could they carry in the simple EE-14 APC?
 

Heinrio

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Does that mean they are considering the Osorio again?

I can't see how. Engesa went bankrupt in 1993 and I'd be shocked if the plans survived 25+ years.

Edit: Maybe someone who speaks Portugese can help me out here. The link below appears to be a requirements document for a program called VBB-CC dated from February 2020. And it matches the Jane's report in terms of dimensions and general performance. But it requires only a 105mm gun with 40 rounds of ammunition, based on a Google translation. But then it also wants a round that can penetrate 1200 mm RHA at 2000 meters, which might imply at least 120mm (this is well past the known limits of even 120mm APFSDS, I believe). And of course all of these are weighted requirements, so failing to meet any one of them (including weight) might not be disqualifying.


At first glance, the Brazilian Army is asking for something like the Type 10 MBT, although that tank is expensive as hell. Also, it doesn't fulfill the 40 rounds minimum ammunition requirement.

As far as I know, after Engesa went bankrupt, all material regarding Osório, including documentation, became property of the Brazilian Army. This means, yes, that's quite possible the Osório plans still exist.

As for the requirements, the 105mm gun requirement is an absolute(that is, mandatory, in my understanding) requirement. However, what is listed is, again in my understanding, the minimum needed to pass this requirement. I don't know enough to comment on APFSDS performance, but I agree that what they are effectively asking for is a 120mm gun.


Maybe the TAM is a possibility, as it meets all the requirements, even though the production line was shut down in the 1990s.
Hi there! I don't think that would be feasible. The TAM production line is long lost and many of the private suppliers are defunct although there are many chasis rotting on the limits of TAMSE (TAM factory name). The TAM S21 was the plan to reactivate TAMSE but only for maintenance and update of the existing tanks, not new ones.
Regards
 

Apophenia

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Has anyone heard of the Bernardini X15 light Viatura Blindada de Combate project? All I known is that, unlike the X1 Pioneiro, the X15 was not based on the M3/M3A1 hull and running gear. The X15 light VBC concept seems to have been abandoned in favour of the X1A2 Carcará (which retained some Stuart dna).
 

Apophenia

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In reply #4, Wyvern posted some sideviews by Gino Marcomini. Another of Marcomini's images is a sideview of the unbuilt X-MAR project from the mid 1970s (attached)

All of these images were rendered to illustrate the book Stuart no Brasil - M3/M3A1 e Derivados.

The X-MAR was to have been a Biselli X1 (modernized M3 Stuart) variant for the CFM (Corpo de Fuzileiros Navais da Marinha do Brasil) - hence the designation. In effect, the X-MAR was to be an X1 hull with the tracks and suspension from the M41C Caxias (a modernized M41 Walker Bulldog).
 

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