South African Ratel IFV What-If

sa_bushwar

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Now that the Patria Badger is coming into service with the SANDF, it is regrettable that we do not have a fully indigenous IFV such as the Ratel anymore. The Badger has a tall order to live up to the reputation of the Ratel which is still going strong 40 years since its inception.

An more fully indigenous design would have stimulated much needed manufacturing and retained scarce skills in SA. Here is what a 2nd generation Ratel could have looked like, bar new electronics and modern weapons systems.
 

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Herman

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Very nice photoshop! Using Ratel mechanicals, i.e. live axels, a lay-out like the one in the "photo's" would have been possible by using a lay-out like that employed in the US Dragoon 300. The engine sits at the back with the transmission behind it and a transfer case behind the transmission. The drive is then brought down from the transmission to a shaft that enters the rear most differential from the back. From there it is simply from diff to diff. You would have had one huge problem though: the only doors would have been little ones in the side, like the one you made on the left, and a little one at the back, like on the original Ratel. Very poor debussing possibilities. The BTR 60 and 70 had the same problem with the two engines at the back.
 

sa_bushwar

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Herman said:
Very nice photoshop! Using Ratel mechanicals, i.e. live axels, a lay-out like the one in the "photo's" would have been possible by using a lay-out like that employed in the US Dragoon 300. The engine sits at the back with the transmission behind it and a transfer case behind the transmission. The drive is then brought down from the transmission to a shaft that enters the rear most differential from the back. From there it is simply from diff to diff. You would have had one huge problem though: the only doors would have been little ones in the side, like the one you made on the left, and a little one at the back, like on the original Ratel. Very poor debussing possibilities. The BTR 60 and 70 had the same problem with the two engines at the back.

Hires pictures attached. Photoshop magic! Debussing problem solved in the one picture below with a large top opening ramp at the back similar to the Iklwa 6x6 prototype version of the Ratel.

Small side door retained for ammo loading and emergency escape. A modern remotely controlled turret will also free up internal space.
 

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  • 186 Ratel 8x8 verbeter 5 verklein.jpg
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curious george

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;D

n Paar mense gaan simpel op facebook oor jou "nuwe" ontwerp,sommiges sukkel om te kop dis n photoshop tsv die verwysing na jou posts hier.
 

sa_bushwar

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sa_bushwar said:
Herman said:
Very nice photoshop! Using Ratel mechanicals, i.e. live axels, a lay-out like the one in the "photo's" would have been possible by using a lay-out like that employed in the US Dragoon 300. The engine sits at the back with the transmission behind it and a transfer case behind the transmission. The drive is then brought down from the transmission to a shaft that enters the rear most differential from the back. From there it is simply from diff to diff. You would have had one huge problem though: the only doors would have been little ones in the side, like the one you made on the left, and a little one at the back, like on the original Ratel. Very poor debussing possibilities. The BTR 60 and 70 had the same problem with the two engines at the back.

Higher Res....

Hires pictures attached. Photoshop magic! Debussing problem solved in the one picture below with a large top opening ramp at the back similar to the Iklwa 6x6 prototype version of the Ratel.

Small side door retained for ammo loading and emergency escape. A modern remotely controlled turret will also free up internal space.
 

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Herman

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It really is a super "sexy" IFV you've created here! From the radiator grill in the centre of the vehicle, I assume that is where the engine sits. The engine and transmission will presumably be mounted in parallel, i.e. tranmission next to the engine, as in the Transportpanzer 6 x 6. With solid axles, this will not work. You need space to but the transfer case between two of the axles with enough space to allow the axles to move up and down without over-articulating the drive shafts. The minimum distance to do this is about 2.4 meters between axles, as on the 8x8 Späpanzer. The axle spacing on the Ratel, between the two rear axles is 1.4 meters. On your creation all the axles are about 1.4 meters apart. To make your setup work, with live axles, you will have to increase the space between the second and third axle to a minimum of 2.4 meters. The other problem is that the engine and transmission in parallel will be so wide that it wwill uld not allow a passage between the front compartment (driver and turret) and the rear compartment (dismounts).

The vehicle you created would have been possible if the Ratel had independent suspension. Was the technology to build a Ratel with independent suspension available to S.A. at the time the Ratel was designed? Yes. The Brazilian Urutu which was evaluated during the early sixties and which now resides at 1 SAI, had an independently sprung front suspension. More interesting though would have been the French VAB. This was developed during the same time frame as the Ratel. If the designers of the Ratel had chosen to use VAB suspension components, a vehicle somewhat like the one you created coud have been built. The engine and transmission would have been at the front of the vehicle on the left, with the driver on the right, next to the engine. The turret would have been further back however, with the crew compartment behind the turret and the main access doors at ramp at the rear of the vehicle. The track would have been similar to that of the Ratel, i.e 2 meters, and the wheelbase would have been 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 meters for an overall vehicle length of about 7.5 meters.

Can the Ratel be modified to look like your super Ratel? Yes, but it would require a major rebuild, more extensive than the Iklwa upgrade. The engine, transmission and drivers compartment would have to be removed and the MAN axles replaced by independent units, like the Oshkosh TAK-4 units, for instance. An extra axle would be added between the first and second axles. A compact, new inline 6-cylinder engine would then be fitted at the left front of the vehicle, with the transmission to its front. A transfer case would take the drive down to the front of the first differential and hence from diff to diff. This is identical to the system used on the VAB. The driver would sit to the right of the engine and the turret, if fitted, would be to the rear of the driver and engine compartment.
 

sa_bushwar

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Herman said:
It really is a super "sexy" IFV you've created here! From the radiator grill in the centre of the vehicle, I assume that is where the engine sits. The engine and transmission will presumably be mounted in parallel, i.e. tranmission next to the engine, as in the Transportpanzer 6 x 6. With solid axles, this will not work. You need space to but the transfer case between two of the axles with enough space to allow the axles to move up and down without over-articulating the drive shafts. The minimum distance to do this is about 2.4 meters between axles, as on the 8x8 Späpanzer. The axle spacing on the Ratel, between the two rear axles is 1.4 meters. On your creation all the axles are about 1.4 meters apart. To make your setup work, with live axles, you will have to increase the space between the second and third axle to a minimum of 2.4 meters. The other problem is that the engine and transmission in parallel will be so wide that it wwill uld not allow a passage between the front compartment (driver and turret) and the rear compartment (dismounts).

The vehicle you created would have been possible if the Ratel had independent suspension. Was the technology to build a Ratel with independent suspension available to S.A. at the time the Ratel was designed? Yes. The Brazilian Urutu which was evaluated during the early sixties and which now resides at 1 SAI, had an independently sprung front suspension. More interesting though would have been the French VAB. This was developed during the same time frame as the Ratel. If the designers of the Ratel had chosen to use VAB suspension components, a vehicle somewhat like the one you created coud have been built. The engine and transmission would have been at the front of the vehicle on the left, with the driver on the right, next to the engine. The turret would have been further back however, with the crew compartment behind the turret and the main access doors at ramp at the rear of the vehicle. The track would have been similar to that of the Ratel, i.e 2 meters, and the wheelbase would have been 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 meters for an overall vehicle length of about 7.5 meters.

Can the Ratel be modified to look like your super Ratel? Yes, but it would require a major rebuild, more extensive than the Iklwa upgrade. The engine, transmission and drivers compartment would have to be removed and the MAN axles replaced by independent units, like the Oshkosh TAK-4 units, for instance. An extra axle would be added between the first and second axles. A compact, new inline 6-cylinder engine would then be fitted at the left front of the vehicle, with the transmission to its front. A transfer case would take the drive down to the front of the first differential and hence from diff to diff. This is identical to the system used on the VAB. The driver would sit to the right of the engine and the turret, if fitted, would be to the rear of the driver and engine compartment.

Good and valid comments Herman!. Will take it into consideration with my next "concept". The point is as you affirm, that it would have been possible to design and build an 8x8 Ratel. Now 40 years later, with no sanctions and many more COTS options, it would have been even more feasible to produce a 100% indigenous IFV.
 

Herman

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Absolutely. If you increase the distance between the second and third axle to about one-and-a -half the distance in your current vehicles, and you push the driver position and the turret sightly backward, you would have an 8 x 8 Ratel using MAN mechanicals. The 8 x 8 LOG Ratel used Ratel components. The diastance between the second and third axles was slightly over 3 meters though; on an 8 x 8 Ratel IFV, this would have been 2.4 to 2.6 meters.
 

sa_bushwar

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Another option for a fully locally produced Ratel replacement could have been to take the Rooikat suspension and drive train and build an IFV body on it back to front so that the engine is in front...
 

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