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SNECMA VTOL programs

MIRAGE 4000

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Great news friends :

Snecma Send me new information and photos on Snecma VTOL programs (Coléoptère and APxxx projects) :eek: :) :eek:.

Rendez-vous sson in Le Fana de l'Aviation ;)


Amitiés
 

Jemiba

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Including the AP 519 ? ???
I always wondered, if it was similar to the Fw 860 ...
 

MIRAGE 4000

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Yep with the AP 519

For the article : in the first 3 month of 2009
I have some archives to see.
I search new material/informations on this program. That's why it's a long time ... ;D ::) ;)
 

Antonio

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For the article : in the first 3 month of 2009

Great news, because my current 2 year subscription ends by mid 2009...anyway I think I'll renew it for 2 years more ;)
 

MIRAGE 4000

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Well done Jemiba

I see here the page on the FW860 .... and it loock like very close to the AP 519 !!!!!!!!!! :eek:
Is was the same program ? The same Team ???? ???

Another question !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
 

Jemiba

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"Is was the same program ? The same Team ?"

I just tried to reconstruct the AP 519 quite a time ago, based on Cunys drawing and
description, that it was intended to take off conventionally or as a tail-sitter
AND would have been able to switch from one to the other configuration on its own
power ! And to my opinion, there couldn't be many other options, than that used for
the Fw 860. And probably, such a landing gear would have severly limited the payload ! ;)
 

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MIRAGE 4000

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Friends !

"Rendez-vous" in april for SNCASO Dever/Snecma "Flying Jeep" :eek: B) :) ;)
and another "Rendez-vous" with Snecma VTOL programs (AP 519, AP 508, AP 550, C 400, C450 ....) in may/june. Many "secret projects" as we like ! ;)

See you, FANAS !!!!!
 

Jemiba

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Yes, that's the one shown in Cunys "Les Avions De Combat Francais", which I used,
too as the sole source. AFAIK, we should really wait for MIRAGEs article, as it may turn
out, to be just an artist impression by Jean Cuny ! :-\
 

Triton

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Wind tunnel model (top) of SNECMA C450 Coléoptère on display at the Safran Air & Space Museum in Melun, France.

Model (bottom) of SNECMA C450 Coléoptère also on display at the Safran Air & Space Museum in Melun, France.

Source: http://www.freewebs.com/aeroscale/safran.htm
 

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hesham

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Hi,

http://www.military.cz/france/air/Snecma-C450-Coleoptere/coleoptere.htm
 

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hesham

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Stargazer2006

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Cutaway view and artist's concept of a 1954 VTO interceptor project by SNECMA:
 

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Stargazer2006

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Thanks Justo, but that's the built Coleoptere. I think this topic deals especially with unbuilt VTOL projects...
 

Stargazer2006

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Justo Miranda said:
¿¿¿programs or projects???

I guess you can say a design becomes a project when it gets a designation number, and then a program when it gets contracted and/or when a prototype gets built. Perhaps the title of this topic is not quite appropriate. The Coleoptère was not simply a project. Since this is the Postwar Aircraft Projects section, all the unbuilt projects belong here while the built and flown Coléoptère belongs in the Aerospace section. At least that's the way it's supposed to be on this forum!
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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If there is a lot to post about the built Coléoptère specifically then a separate topic in Aerospace is appropriate. If it is a minor digression within a related Projects topic, it can stay.


Anything not built in series production but only as a (failed) prototype may end up in a Projects forum or Aerospace depending on the balance of information presented.


There is no need to get hung up on semantics here.
 

Justo Miranda

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Stargazer2006 said:
Justo Miranda said:
¿¿¿programs or projects???

I guess you can say a design becomes a project when it gets a designation number, and then a program when it gets contracted and/or when a prototype gets built. Perhaps the title of this topic is not quite appropriate. The Coleoptère was not simply a project. Since this is the Postwar Aircraft Projects section, all the unbuilt projects belong here while the built and flown Coléoptère belongs in the Aerospace section. At least that's the way it's supposed to be on this forum!



I believe I have to respectfully disagree in this case.... The topic of this thread, initiated by "Mirage 4000" in August 14 2008, was the Coleoptère program and other SNECMA projects. Videos and illustrations on the Coleoptère have also been posted on January 9, 2010 and August 26, 2010.
Following the global moderator instructions, I have removed my illustrations, although I consider that the topic of the thread have got a bit confused and perhaps would be better to divide it in "prototypes" and "projects".
 

Jemiba

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Stargazer2006 said:
I guess you can say a design becomes a project when it gets a designation number, and then a program when it gets contracted and/or when a prototype gets built.

I would agree to the first part, but disagree to the second.
For me, the term "program" just means, that money is bound to be spent on a longer timescale, maybe for procurement
and maintenance of a series type, but maybe for research work on a specific field, not necessarily meant to lead to
a series aircraft. So a "project" can very well lead to flying hardware.Where should be the border between "projects" and
"programs" otherwise? When the prototype completed its flight testing, or when it was just finished for its first flight ?
Or when the first metal was actually cut and first components built ? Perhaps when the first metal on a proof-of-concept
demonstrator was cut, which not necessarily has to have much in common with a later series version ?
The general definition says, that a "project" is "... a singular, purposeful intention", but it says nothing about the result.
And a program is just a fixed objective and a fixed agreement, how to achieve a certain goal. So I think, both terms don't
rule out each other.
But I agree with Paul, that we shouldn't bother too much about linguistics and perhaps just keep in mind the forum rule:

"Prototypes that didn't enter series production may also be appropriate at the descretion of the moderators.
Aircraft built in series production should generally be discussed in the "Aerospace" section "

It's relatively clear and easy and was sufficient all the years this forum now exists ! ;)

About the AP.519 please remember this thread, too:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1651.msg47281.html#msg47281
 

hesham

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Hi,


from Le FANA magazine,the SNECMA AP-519 drawing and model.
 

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hesham

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Hi,

here is the Snecma AP.521 Flying Jeep Project.

Le Fana 473
 

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hesham

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From Le Fana 474;
 

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blackkite

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TomcatViP

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Nice one but regarding the beautiful illustration above, I think we can have some serious doubts regarding the plausibility of this van tracting the mass of the plane and its trailer (we'll at least with the jet's engine turned-off)!!
 
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blackkite

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The implementation of the Flying Atar had shown the potential to stabilize a reactor "placed on its tail-sitter". Based on these experiences, the decision on a flying model and an annular-winged design rests with a Snecma engineer, von Zborowski, of Austrian origin, formerly of Peenem-nde and BMW. The advantages and defects of this type of wing were known at the time and in particular its very poor performance at low speed.

The prototype was studied and built by Nord-Aviation, for the airframe, and Snecma from 1957 to 1959. The wind tunnel model trials were never published, particularly with respect to the transition phases between vertical and horizontal flight. The horizontal flight area appeared to be poorly known and had not been tested in full size.

After a first vertical flight under slings in April, the first free ascent took place on May 6, 1959 in Melun-Villaroche. Further ascents up to about 1,000 metres were made. And despite questions about the machine's ability to transition, it was to be bravely attempted at the 9th flight by test pilot Auguste Morel on July 25, 1959. The latter almost lost his life because the prototype, unbalanced during the climb and tilting at nearly 50 degrees, then falling at too high a speed several tens of meters from the ground, had no means of recovery. The pilot ejected at an altitude of less than 500 feet; he was seriously injured and the aircraft's tests stopped there.
 
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shedofdread

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Found this on a 'social media platform' labelled merely as " Snecma Coleoptere".
 

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