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Siebel Flugzeugwerke Prototypes and Projects

hesham

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We can speak here about Siebel prototypes and Projects,

there was a report in 1945,explained that,the Siebel company did a further development of DFS 346 supersonic experimental aircraft ?.
 
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hesham

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Finally I get the source.

"X-planes - German Luftwaffe Prototypes 1930-1945" by Manfred Griehl, Casemate 2012
 

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hesham

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OK my dear Wurger,but also I will repeat sending the "0-1" with more info.
 

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hesham

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Hi,


also in 1944 the RLM issued a specification for a fighter project that would use a minimum of strategic materials, be suitable for rapid mass production and have a performance equal to the best piston engined fighters of the time.

The main tenders were; Arado,Blohm & Voss,Fieseler,focke-Wulf,Junkers Heinkel,Messerschmitt and Siebel,I can't ID all those competitors,but we note that Siebel submitted a proposal,what was it ?.

http://www.luft46.com/horten/hox.html
 
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hesham

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From Waffen-Arsenal Sonderband S-27,


here is a Siebel Mistel aircraft.
 

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hesham

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Hi,

not a project,but here is a Siebel Fh.104,with a fuel tank as I think,am I right ?.

Jet & Prop 2012-02
 

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bigvlada

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Why put so complicated contraption where a simple fuel tank under wing would be cheaper and easier to install and jettison?
 

iverson

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bigvlada said:
Why put so complicated contraption where a simple fuel tank under wing would be cheaper and easier to install and jettison?

My guess would be that the extra lift provided by the towed-glider arrangment was meant to let the parent aircraft lift a greater weight of fuel than it's own wing area and structure could support. Lots of inventors experimented with the convept during WW2. But nothing is free. As you suggest, the setup was more complicated. Worse, engines had to run at higher power levels for prolonged periods, which typically caused overheating, reduced reliability, and shortened the life of the engine. A towed glider could also adversely affect stability and control.
 

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Wasn't the idea experimented with as a way to increase the range of bomber and recon aircraft to reach the North American coast? I remember seeing either that photograph or one of a similar arrangement in the book "Luftwaffe Over America".
 

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To me, the trailer with the straight drawbar seems to be the same, as the one shown in the attached photo,
which is described by Ernst Peter in "Der Flugzeugschlepp von den Anfängen bis heute" (aerotow from its beginning
until today), Motorbuchverlag 1981.
It's designated as the Fieseler P 21A (so no Siebel project or design) and was just the start of the development of a
flying trailer, which could be used as an auxiliary tank, or as a bomb carrier, or as both, as shown in the second picture
from the same source.
The version on the second photo above perhaps just differs with regards to the drawbar, which may give
the vehicle a more streamlined shape, I think. Interesting sidenote is, that after encountering problems with
stability at low speeds, a pilots seat was added to the trailer. Due to the small size of the trailer, this was
only suitable for small pilots, so Hanna Reitsch was committed as test pilot.
There are also photos of a He 177 towing a trailer with a tank above the wing. Those tests actually weren't
aimed at increasing range, but for testing the behaviour of drop tanks being hit by gun fire. The towed tank
was fired at by the rear gunner of the He 177 to get data, that should help with the development of conventionally
carried tanks for fighter aircraft.
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
From Waffen-Arsenal Sonderband S-27,

here is a Siebel Mistel aircraft.

From; Die Deutsche Luftruestung 1933-1945 - vol.4 - MIAG-Zeppelin
 

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cluttonfred

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Does anyone have any information on the development of the Volksflugzeug (people's airplane) Siebel Si.202 Hummel ("Bumble-bee")? Perhaps alternatives that were considered before the design was finalized and produced? Below is the original prototype with a little French Salmson nine-cylinder radial, the production models all had four-cylinder inlines. Thanks!

siebel-si-202-trainer-3.jpg
 

Maveric

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...
 

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Jemiba

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From Nowarra "Die deutsche Luftrüstung 1933 - 45":
Designed by Friedrich Fechner and Fritz Siebel in 1938 as a cheap, robust and easy to fly twin seat
sports aircraft to allow wide sections of the population to fly. Design points were use of a low powered
engine and side-by-side seating in an enclosed cockpit to make the type suitable as a trainer (? most training
aircraft of this time had tandem seating, I think
)
Three versions were built:

Si 202A: The basic type with squared wing and tail to allow for easy repair. Engine was an Salmson 7 AD radial of 45 hp

Si 202B: Basically the same type, but with a Zündapp inline engine of 50 hp.
(The attached photo is labelled as "Si 202 B", but the shape of the rudder contradicts this, probably a C version
drawing is from the mentioned book)


Si 202C: Fitted with rounded wingtips and balanced rudders, engine was a Hirth 515 inline engine of 60 hp. A second tank
was installed for an increased range (drawing see Maverics post)

No information about early or alternative designs, sorry. But as it was intended from the start as a kind of training aircraft,
it seems to be plausible, that it should resemble the "standard" aircraft of this time, that means, low wing monoplane, I think.
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
We can speak here about Siebel prototypes and projects,

there was a report in 1945,explained that,the Siebel company did a further development
of DFS 346 supersonic experimental aircraft ?.

Many works done in USSR;

there have been some changes in the design of the machine,have improved
the sealing of the fuselage,landing fences at the ends of the wing.
 
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sgeorges4

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Do you have something about the siebel volksjager proposition?
 

sgeorges4

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I just want some info on it because the siebel project seem to be unknow
 

Jemiba

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Obviously Siebel actually made a proposal to the tender for what became known as the "Volksjäger",
but still yet no data have surfaced, not to mention drawings.
This proposal is mentioned here on page 61
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiykp693ubYAhVBCewKHdKbAWMQFghSMAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fothes.univie.ac.at%2F29317%2F1%2F2013-08-08_0548954.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0aF1dxapuZL5NLKDoLELwj ,

a quite interesting read, though to my opinion somewhat biased. After all, the data given should be relatively
reliable, as it is a from a master thesis. And if the examining board took its task seriously, the used sources
shouldn't included totally useless ones .
 

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Jemiba said:
Obviously Siebel actually made a proposal to the tender for what became known as the "Volksjäger",
but still yet no data have surfaced, not to mention drawings.
It's because the Siebel Flugzeugwerke together with Messerschmitt's and Fieseler's design offices soon back out the Volksjäger Program,
when they recognized that terms of the RLM specifications of 10 September 1944 are impossible to fulfil for them.
By the way ...
http://www.histaviation.com/siebel_si_202.html some more informations about Siebel Si 202.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
Finally I get the source.

"X-planes - German Luftwaffe Prototypes 1930-1945" by Manfred Griehl, Casemate 2012

From Ailes 7/1948,

there was a sketch for jet version of DFS.346,did by Siebel in USSR,as mentioned in many reliable sources,of course the drawing was just a hypothetically concept,by the only fact we know,there was a development to this experimental aircraft in Russian,and unfortunately with no details ?.
 

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hesham

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hesham

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there was a report in 1945,explained that,the Siebel company did a further development of DFS 346 supersonic experimental aircraft ?.

Also from, Secret Nazi Aircraft 1939 -1945 Luftwaffe's Advanced Aircraft Projects.
 

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Apophenia

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Re: Kora Models Mistel kit

The Kora Models instruction sheet's 'history' mainly cover generic Mistel history. All that is said about the undesignated Siebel project - if it really was one - is that it would be rocket-launched from a sled on (railway?) tracks. Presumably, the control aircraft's power was then meant to be sufficient take the pick-a-back combo on to its target.

Potential control aircraft types named are the Fw 190A, Fw 190D, or Ta 152H. (This is followed by a generic listing of late-war piston-engined fighters - Ta 152B, Ta 152C, and Ta 152H - followed by jet-propelled "Me 262, He 162, Ho 229, Ta 183, atd." ... although what relevance all these German fighters/concepts have to the modelled Mistel combo is anyone's guess.) It all seems rather dubious to me.

One of the clangers in the Kora Models text was that the control aircraft "could not be manufactured by Siebel". But, of course, the Ta 152C was scheduled to have been produced by Siebel (at its Schkeuditz facility). Did the Kora Models writer mean Siebel "could not" make the Ta 152H-1 model specifically? That wouldn't seem worth mentioning ... but who knows?

For completeness, I include the sideview drawing from the Kora Models instruction sheet.
- From here: https://karopka.ru/community/user/17547/?MODEL=530091
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
We can speak here about Siebel prototypes and projects,

there was a report in 1945,explained that,the Siebel company did a further development
of DFS 346 supersonic experimental aircraft ?.

Many works done in USSR;

there have been some changes in the design of the machine,have improved
the sealing of the fuselage,landing fences at the ends of the wing.
From, Немецкий след в истории отечественной авиации
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
We can speak here about Siebel prototypes and projects,

there was a report in 1945,explained that,the Siebel company did a further development
of DFS 346 supersonic experimental aircraft ?.

Many works done in USSR;

there have been some changes in the design of the machine,have improved
the sealing of the fuselage,landing fences at the ends of the wing.
From, Aerei Nella Storia 67.
 

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