Short Skyvan for COIN Operations.

[Roland55]

Hello guys, i dont mean to bother you, but i found the mentioning of the Short Skyvan being modified for COIN operations and also receiving a modification/variant of the Sea Cat missile called "hellcat" (that i couldn't even find a single picture), do any of you have info of this "Counter Insurgency Gem"?

Image taken from the Flight international Magazine december 7th 1972

 

[CJGibson]

Hellcat was an air-launched Seacat proposed as an anti-FPB weapon on the Wasp. Lost out to Nord AS.11/AS.12. See British Secret Projects - Hypersonics, Ramjets and Missiles.

Chris

 

[_Del_]

I don't know anything about either of the missiles, but I seem to recall seeing a picture of a Skyvan in desert camo with rocket pods in one book or another.
I also vaguely remember a picture with cheek mounted gun packages, but I may be misremembering that and confusing it with an Arava which I know I've seen a few pictures of with cheek guns.

 

[cluttonfred]

The more things change...does that remind anyone of an armed PZL M28 Sky Truck?

SOCOM Selects 5 Armed Overwatch Prototypes | Air & Space Forces Magazine

U.S. Special Operations Command awarded a total of $19.2 million to five companies for prototype demonstrations as part of the Armed Overwatch program.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[yasotay]

If Sky Truck was not used in COIN, it would likely have done well. Both the M28 mentioned above and another analouge, the CASA 212, have both been used extensively in COIN ops of the last few years. However, only, to my knowledge as a logistics resupply to remote (some very remote) outost and forward operating units.

 

[Pioneer]

I guess if the Israeli IAI Arava STOL transport could be armed with "two machine guns in fuselage side packs (usually 0.5" Browning), plus a third gun on the rear fuselage, and two pods containing 6 x 82 mm rocket pods or torpedoes or sonar buoys on the fuselage sides", then I can't see why the Skyvan technically couldn't, especially for a small Air Force or Army.

(Picture source: https://barrieaircraft.com/photo/iai-arava-03.html)

​

Regards
Pioneer

 

[iverson]

The Skyvan was one of the mainstays of the English-backed COIN campaign in Oman in the 1970s. But it served as a tactical transport rather than as a strike aircraft. Strike duties were carried out by Strikemasters.

 

[riggerrob]

Light transports only need to out-gun local insurgents/terrorists/smugglers.
As long as opponents lack serious AAA or interceptors, a COIN airplane does not need to be very fast or armored. All it needs to do is loiter above the range of heavy machine guns.
The current fashion is to equip light, turbo-prop airplanes with targeting pods and stand-off, precise-guided missiles.
An AC-Skyvan Spectre would be "killer" even if only equipped with rifle-caliber machine guns.

 

[CJGibson]

Not a Skyvan, but here's a Defender Spooky that TSRJoe sent me for a COIN chapter in Typhoon to Typhoon that got pulled. I think its from Flight

Chris

 

[Grey Havoc]

Light transports only need to out-gun local insurgents/terrorists/smugglers.

Though some criminal and terrorist networks are quite well armed these days.

 

[shin_getter]

Light transports only need to out-gun local insurgents/terrorists/smugglers.

Though some criminal and terrorist networks are quite well armed these days.

I wonder when will they learn to raid hobby king and duct tape a microturbine with plywood.


** Imagine, a rogue aerospace engineer upsetting the balance of power by posting instructions~~~ **

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Is the missiles performance known, and how did it compare to the SS.11?

 

[Roland55]

Is the missiles performance known, and how did it compare to the SS.11?

I believe BSP- hypersonics ramjets and missiles has a table that compared the Hellcat with the sea skua and the ss11, as soon as I have time I’ll share it !

 

[CJGibson]

Is the missiles performance known, and how did it compare to the SS.11?

I believe BSP- hypersonics ramjets and missiles has a table that compared the Hellcat with the sea skua and the ss11, as soon as I have time I’ll share it !

I hope you don't go breaking anybody's copyright. That's viewed very dimly on here.

Chris

 

[iverson]

The Skyvan was one of the mainstays of the English-backed COIN campaign in Oman in the 1970s. But it served as a tactical transport rather than as a strike aircraft. Strike duties were carried out by Strikemasters.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Is the missiles performance known, and how did it compare to the SS.11?

I believe BSP- hypersonics ramjets and missiles has a table that compared the Hellcat with the sea skua and the ss11, as soon as I have time I’ll share it !

Best thing to do is to create the table yourself, in excel or word, then copy it here, rather than directly copying it from the book, so as to avoid copyright.

 

[Roland55]

Is the missiles performance known, and how did it compare to the SS.11?

I believe BSP- hypersonics ramjets and missiles has a table that compared the Hellcat with the sea skua and the ss11, as soon as I have time I’ll share it !

Oh you will will you? hope you don't go breaking anybody's copyright. That's viewed very dimly on here.

Chris

I thought about that and I guess wyvern’s advice is the best thing I can do.

Is the missiles performance known, and how did it compare to the SS.11?

I believe BSP- hypersonics ramjets and missiles has a table that compared the Hellcat with the sea skua and the ss11, as soon as I have time I’ll share it !

Best thing to do is to create the table yourself, in excel or word, then copy it here, rather than directly copying it from the book, so as to avoid copyright.

Thanks, as soon as I get home I’ll get the book and the data!

 

[iverson]

Not a Skyvan, but here's a Defender Spooky that TSRJoe sent me for a COIN chapter in Typhoon to Typhoon that got pulled. I think its from Flight

Chris

Armed Defenders have been used for COIN and/or anti-drug operations by quite a few countries. Here are a few: 3 x Belize Defense Force, Madagascar, 2 x Rhodesia, 3 x Mauretania shown with 8-cm SURA rockets and drop tanks or, possibly, gun pods. All taken from various web sites.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

Not Skyvan COIN, but on a similar line of thought;- I remember Ted Talbot, of Concorde intake engineering fame, telling me his first job upon joining the Bristol Aeroplane Company was coming up with a scheme for mounting a 25 pounder artillery gun forward firing from the nose of a Bristol Freighter. This was for the Pakistani airforce to meet a COIN requirement on the North West Frontier. A few ground firings were undertaken from a Freighter cargo deck to make measurements, and check out a “boiler plate” recoil absorber but they never got to do an airborne test.

 

[CJGibson]

Well oil beef hooked! I wonder if any drawings of that survive. That binned chapter might see light of day yet.

Chris

 

[Roland55]

@Wyvern i did trow there the Sea Skua and both SS.12 and SS.10 to at least have an idea when compared to a small missile system (SS.10) and a more equivalent (SS.12). I dont think the Hellcat was a bad idea at all, my best guess is that its poor range and the fact that the already available SS.12 were more of a better option?



Im also working with photoshop to recreate how the Skyvan would have looked with the 4 missiles!

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

I dont think the Hellcat was a bad idea at all, my best guess is that its poor range and the fact that the already available SS.12 were more of a better option?

Yes, that's probably the main reason why it was never introduced.

Im also working with photoshop to recreate how the Skyvan would have looked with the 4 missiles!

Sounds great!

 

[Roland55]

Im not very well skilled on Photoshop (although I've done some similar images to this one but with other planes), but anyway, this is how i imagine it would have been


Proportions are not my thing, so the missiles could have been a bit larger (or smaller).

 

[Roland55]

Another mention of the Hellcat (magazine)

 

[CJGibson]

Nice pic Roland 55...but...the Hellcats are oriented for carriage on the Wasp. Also, I wondered if the they would be wing-mounted as I can find no source that says the Skyvan was to have wing hardpoints, so these locations are a guess. If anyone knows of a source for Skyvan hardpoints, please let me know and I'll amend the drawing.

How's this?



Chris

 

[Roland55]

Nice pic Roland 55...but...the Hellcats are oriented for carriage on the Wasp. Also, I wondered if the they would be wing-mounted as I can find no source that says the Skyvan was to have wing hardpoints, so these locations are a guess. If anyone knows of a source for Skyvan hardpoints, please let me know and I'll amend the drawing.

How's this?

View attachment 659463

Chris

A lot better !, I thought that they could re-purpose the same mounting that the wasp used (also propelling the missile a bit up and then down much like the SS.12 giving more time for the gunner to aim), my guess obviously, but regarding their placement…I don’t see any other places where they could go, besides, could the wing of the skyvan take the 120Kg+ of weight of both missiles ?

 

[Hood]

The other problem with the underwing hardpoints is loading the rails, they would be 8-9ft off the ground, so not something you could easily load in the field.
I'm wondering is some kind of adapted helicopter beam mounting might not have been used attached to the forward fuselage?

I wonder how the the co-pilot aim the Hellcat? Via an instrument-panel mounted gyro sight or a stabilised sight in the upper cockpit perspex?

 

[Pioneer]

Im not very well skilled on Photoshop (although I've done some similar images to this one but with other planes), but anyway, this is how i imagine it would have been
View attachment 659430

Proportions are not my thing, so the missiles could have been a bit larger (or smaller).

Top effort all the same thanks Roland55 - it gives a great perspective!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[TsrJoe]

a boom type mounting was proposed for SS.11 installation on the DHC. Twin Otter proposal for a Pioneer/Twin Pioneer replacement type for the RAF. The brochure has some nice illustrations showing the type in typical counter insurgency roles

 

[Roland55]

I kept browsing and ended up finding something, cited from book (no idea of its title or author)

white page, large title "ARMAMENT" subdivided into 3 categories + 3 images of the sky van displaying armament (much like the drawings we shared here), 1st drawing with Gun-pod (side view), seconds with rocket pod (frontal view), 3rd with Hellcat missile (sideview).

LIGHT MACHINE GUNS

Both external and internal gun installations are possible with the COIN Skyvan. The standards wing pylon accepts the Universal Twin 7.62mm Machine Gun Pod.

This self contained weapon which is defined to provide heavy suppressive fire for ground attack or counter insurgency roles offer a rate of fire of 850/950 rounds per minute.

The exceptionally strong floor of the fuselage is ideal for installing conventional light machine-guns (7.62mm) or 20mm automatic cannons firing through the side and read fuselage doors for strike missions against ground forces.

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AIR TO GROUND ROCKETS

Modern attack philosophy favours the large stroke are without loss of density which ensures a greater "Kill" probability. The 2-inch Rocket system is designed to this end because low front large of the rocket permits high density loading. The high "Kill" potential, coupled with with the low cost of the rockets, gives an excellent cost/effectiveness ratio. The Skyvan installation, similar to that on such present day ground attack aircraft as the Harrier, Panthom, Etc, retains the capability of pairs or ripple firing. Alternatively the 68mm rocket can be installed.

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GUIDED MISSILES

Four Short "HELLCAT" air-to-ground guided missiles mounted on underwing pylons provide the COIN Skyvan with the most sophisticated armament offered on any fixed wing light aircraft.

HELLCAT, which is developed form the well proven SeaCat missile and adapted for aerial launching packs the punch of a 6 inch shell. It can be fired from at a considerable range at difficult targets, such as light ships or armored ground vehicles, with pinpoint accuracy thus giving the SKYVAN an exceptional "Stand-off" attack capability.



Something i wanted to add, the missiles are on the horizontal position, much like CJGibson's illustrations and as soon as i can find the book ill try to share about it.

 

[riggerrob]

The other problem with the underwing hardpoints is loading the rails, they would be 8-9ft off the ground, so not something you could easily load in the field.
I'm wondering is some kind of adapted helicopter beam mounting might not have been used attached to the forward fuselage?

I wonder how the the co-pilot aim the Hellcat? Via an instrument-panel mounted gyro sight or a stabilised sight in the upper cockpit perspex?

Good point dear Hood,
In that case, mounting missiles on fuselage sides or the (landing gear) stub wings makes more sense. A lower mounting would position missiles at chest or knee level for ground crew.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

The missile was optically guided, therefore requiring a sight. My best guess would be that it was either mounted inside, or on top of the cockpit.

 

[Roland55]

What was the planned guidance system for the Hellcat?

The guidance system the missile had was in some ways comparable to the one used by the SS.12, optical tracking via a Gyro-Stabilized sight and a radio command link. So the aircraft carrying needed to have some sort of sight on top, much like the Wasp or the Alouette III.

i imagine the Skyvan that was modified (if some were) had something like that, or maybe a more crude solution?)

 

[TsrJoe]

Flight, 6 December 1962

 

[riggerrob]

Flight, 6 December 1962

I have made dozens of skydives from Shorts Skyvans and it is still one of my favorite jump planes. Skyvans are especially good for tandem jumps because you can stand on your hind legs - like a gentleman - and get the student into the "banana position" before you reach the ramp.

Skyvans and CASA 212s are popular with military contractors who train military freefallers. These twin-turboprops operate for a fraction of the cost of military cargo planes with ramps under their tails.

 

[Roland55]

Jane's 1970s

 

[timmymagic]

@Wyvern i did trow there the Sea Skua and both SS.12 and SS.10 to at least have an idea when compared to a small missile system (SS.10) and a more equivalent (SS.12). I dont think the Hellcat was a bad idea at all, my best guess is that its poor range and the fact that the already available SS.12 were more of a better option?

View attachment 659384

Im also working with photoshop to recreate how the Skyvan would have looked with the 4 missiles!

Wouldn't the range be substantially more via air launch? If Malkara and Sea Cat have ranges of 4,000m - 5,000m from surface launch I'd have expected an air-launched variant to have a range of at least 6km with the advantage of height and speed.

 

[Roland55]

@Wyvern i did trow there the Sea Skua and both SS.12 and SS.10 to at least have an idea when compared to a small missile system (SS.10) and a more equivalent (SS.12). I dont think the Hellcat was a bad idea at all, my best guess is that its poor range and the fact that the already available SS.12 were more of a better option?

View attachment 659384

Im also working with photoshop to recreate how the Skyvan would have looked with the 4 missiles!

Wouldn't the range be substantially more via air launch? If Malkara and Sea Cat have ranges of 4,000m - 5,000m from surface launch I'd have expected an air-launched variant to have a range of at least 6km with the advantage of height and speed.

According to BSP the range of this missiles while air launched was 3.5Km, its possible that being air launched from an aircraft at a certain speed would help increasing it a bit, but this being the Skyvan i really wouldn't expect much.
Another thing is the Operation ranges the Sea Cat could reach that maximum range in certain conditions (some would say close to ideal) but when the model saw action the range was seen to be lower than 5km.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Is the speed and acceleration in relation to the aircraft known? Can it be worked out?

 

[TomcatViP]

Slant distance? If that was wire guided, the length of available wire would limit the range