Russian tanks how many?

muttly

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How many tanks does Russia have not counting T-72 or older?
 

totoro

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I won't go into the accuracy of the sources but for what it's worth the IISS Military balance 2022 says Russia has:
580 T-80
417 T-90

That's in active service, IF you don't count T-72, like you asked.

When one uses oryx blog numbers for tanks lost in Ukraine, (22 T-64, 440 T-72, 135 T-80, 20 T-90, 130 unknown type)
those figures get adjusted to:
445 T-80
397 T-90

(providing one disregards the unknown type tanks.)

BUT.

I strongly advise against not counting T-72s as those make up the bulk of russian tank force. Not only that, but labeling all T-72s as one type, inherently less capable than all T-80s, for example, is not advisable either. There are many subvariants of T-72 and the later ones are quite a bit more capable than early T-80 variants, for example.

Furthermore, there are indications Russia has taken some of tanks from reserve and put them in service in Ukraine. So *some* of the tanks lost don't actually count against the active service ones. It's almost impossible to say which, though. But it's likely that T-64s for example have been taken out of the reserves.

So, actual active service russian tanks would be:
580 T-80
417 T-90
2320 T-72

And adjusted for oryx claims, assuming those are true and do not represent reserve tanks -
active service tanks would be:
445 T-80
397 T-90
1880 T-72

Also, Russia does have quite a few tanks in reserve. MB 2022 says as many as 7000 T-72, 3000 T-80 and 200 T-90.
Now, it's likely that many of those, possibly over half, are in such bad condition that they can't really be put back in service without some major refurbishment.

Anyway, hope this helped.
 

timmymagic

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I won't go into the accuracy of the sources but for what it's worth the IISS Military balance 2022 says Russia has:
580 T-80
417 T-90

That's in active service, IF you don't count T-72, like you asked.

When one uses oryx blog numbers for tanks lost in Ukraine, (22 T-64, 440 T-72, 135 T-80, 20 T-90, 130 unknown type)
those figures get adjusted to:
445 T-80
397 T-90

(providing one disregards the unknown type tanks.)

BUT.

I strongly advise against not counting T-72s as those make up the bulk of russian tank force. Not only that, but labeling all T-72s as one type, inherently less capable than all T-80s, for example, is not advisable either. There are many subvariants of T-72 and the later ones are quite a bit more capable than early T-80 variants, for example.

Furthermore, there are indications Russia has taken some of tanks from reserve and put them in service in Ukraine. So *some* of the tanks lost don't actually count against the active service ones. It's almost impossible to say which, though. But it's likely that T-64s for example have been taken out of the reserves.

So, actual active service russian tanks would be:
580 T-80
417 T-90
2320 T-72

And adjusted for oryx claims, assuming those are true and do not represent reserve tanks -
active service tanks would be:
445 T-80
397 T-90
1880 T-72

Also, Russia does have quite a few tanks in reserve. MB 2022 says as many as 7000 T-72, 3000 T-80 and 200 T-90.
Now, it's likely that many of those, possibly over half, are in such bad condition that they can't really be put back in service without some major refurbishment.

Anyway, hope this helped.

Covert Cabal did a rather good video looking for all of the Russian tanks in storage using satellite imagery. The conclusion he reached after checking all of the storage areas he could find was that there were only 6,000 tanks in storage, a very large number were clearly beyond repair. I'm sure its not perfect but its hard to see where a further 6-8 thousand tanks could be lurking. He also seems to have picked up storage areas that have closed, which may still be included in others estimates (I've a feeling that people have run with the same numbers for years without checking...).

One thing I've not seen on some of the available lists is T-62, we know they're in storage as they've been sent to Melitopol recently, and shipped in large numbers to Syria over the last 8 years to replace Syrian Army losses. Perhaps they're reaching the end of the line in numbers left.

The video is definitely worth watching..

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHhgVrKJJoA
 

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Forest Green

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I won't go into the accuracy of the sources but for what it's worth the IISS Military balance 2022 says Russia has:
580 T-80
417 T-90

That's in active service, IF you don't count T-72, like you asked.

When one uses oryx blog numbers for tanks lost in Ukraine, (22 T-64, 440 T-72, 135 T-80, 20 T-90, 130 unknown type)
those figures get adjusted to:
445 T-80
397 T-90

(providing one disregards the unknown type tanks.)

BUT.

I strongly advise against not counting T-72s as those make up the bulk of russian tank force. Not only that, but labeling all T-72s as one type, inherently less capable than all T-80s, for example, is not advisable either. There are many subvariants of T-72 and the later ones are quite a bit more capable than early T-80 variants, for example.

Furthermore, there are indications Russia has taken some of tanks from reserve and put them in service in Ukraine. So *some* of the tanks lost don't actually count against the active service ones. It's almost impossible to say which, though. But it's likely that T-64s for example have been taken out of the reserves.

So, actual active service russian tanks would be:
580 T-80
417 T-90
2320 T-72

And adjusted for oryx claims, assuming those are true and do not represent reserve tanks -
active service tanks would be:
445 T-80
397 T-90
1880 T-72

Also, Russia does have quite a few tanks in reserve. MB 2022 says as many as 7000 T-72, 3000 T-80 and 200 T-90.
Now, it's likely that many of those, possibly over half, are in such bad condition that they can't really be put back in service without some major refurbishment.

Anyway, hope this helped.
They were seen transporting some T-62s to Ukraine recently.

 

Josh_TN

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It's important to note that some of the newest T-72 modifications are superior to T80s and even T90s in some ways, particularly EO/IR and fire control. The latest ERA packages are also very different in protection from say Kontakt 1. A T-72B3M is arguably as much of a high end tank as a T-90.

I've learned a depressingly large amount about the T-72 series in the last several months.

Pre war, Russia was thought to have 3500-4000 MBTs in active service with the 10,000+ number in reserve being thrown around. That latter number probably includes a lot of vehicles that could only be used for parts and the fact that modernized T62s have been seen moving around seem to indicate there is insufficient capacity to restore enough T-72/80s to operational condition in a timely fashion.
 

Archibald

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I wonder if they still have T-34/85, T-54 / 55 somewhere in storage... :D
 

isayyo2

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I wonder if they still have T-34/85, T-54 / 55 somewhere in storage... :D
Well...

 

totoro

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Could it be that russian forces are planning to use those t62 as some sort of relocatable realistic decoys? means to confuse the opponent as to how many real forces are deployed where?

I don't get why they would use stored t62 for combat, when they have thousands of stored t72. Which are both more capable and logistically more compatible with existing forces.
 

Forest Green

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Could it be that russian forces are planning to use those t62 as some sort of relocatable realistic decoys? means to confuse the opponent as to how many real forces are deployed where?

I don't get why they would use stored t62 for combat, when they have thousands of stored t72. Which are both more capable and logistically more compatible with existing forces.
It could be were it not for there having been several train loads of more modern tanks previously and quoted tank losses nearing 1500 (1465 - not including APCs - 3573). The T-90s they're likely reserving, not that many in Ukraine from what I've seen. So the number is largely made up of T-72s, T-80s and some T-64BVs. So many of the better operational tanks are gone and Russia is probably keeping some behind for security reasons.

So it depends whether the thread is asking how many tanks does Russia have, or how many did it have.
 
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Josh_TN

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Could it be that russian forces are planning to use those t62 as some sort of relocatable realistic decoys? means to confuse the opponent as to how many real forces are deployed where?

I don't get why they would use stored t62 for combat, when they have thousands of stored t72. Which are both more capable and logistically more compatible with existing forces.
It’s thought that perhaps the 10,000 T-72/80s in storage haven’t been maintained in operational condition while the T-62 stocks had recently underwent maintenance for donations to Syria and other allies. So the the T-62s were easier to press into service on short notice. That said, I would expect a crash program to refurbish more modern tanks yet I’ve seen no evidence of such so far, which is surprising.
 

Zoo Tycoon

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Massive indirect fire is currently the Russian ace card;- given the very high usage, artillery tubes are wearing out. The T62 has a slightly higher gun elevation than others, simple, manual mechanical gun laying/reloading (others have complex auto loading and electro-mechanical gun laying;- so more tricky to bring back to life) and has all the good bits of a crude self propelled gun. All it may need is an earth ramp.

True it’s no good for tank vs tank but that’s not how it’s going to be used.
 
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_Del_

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Pretty sure I have read the T-62's have been/are being handed to the DPR.

And as prevalent as the urban warfare scene is there, why send in new equipment to eat anti-tank.weapons when all you are using them for are armoured SPG's? Are there any recorded battles between MBT's to date in theater? Not to my knowledge.
 

Nick

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The T-72s were built in two places. UKBM Nizhny Tagil in Russia stopped making tanks 30 years ago.
The Malyshev Factory in Kharkiv is now a warzone site of special military operations :rolleyes: but were still building and upgrading all the T-80, T-72 and T-64s until recently and may still be in limited operation to support the Ukraine military.

Given that Russian factories are running out of spare parts it seems possible that they simply can't repair and upgrade all the modern tanks they want to. As the T-64s are older they may need less complicated maintenance.
 

Cannonfodder43

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCZU1XdNb_E&t=35s&ab_channel=MilitaryHistoryVisualized

Regarding the T-62M's, from recent twitter footage as well it appears that these tanks were simply readily available having last been used by the Southern Military district until 2009-2010 and many having been brought back for exercises in 2018.

Thus for transfer to the DPR or LPR forces they were more readily available compared to other tanks in deep storage.

As far as things go, perfectly adequate as mobile protected firepower for reserve or proxy units.
 

Forest Green

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Pretty sure I have read the T-62's have been/are being handed to the DPR.

And as prevalent as the urban warfare scene is there, why send in new equipment to eat anti-tank.weapons when all you are using them for are armoured SPG's? Are there any recorded battles between MBT's to date in theater? Not to my knowledge.
There have been some captured on video yes.

The T-72s were built in two places. UKBM Nizhny Tagil in Russia stopped making tanks 30 years ago.
The Malyshev Factory in Kharkiv is now a warzone site of special military operations :rolleyes: but were still building and upgrading all the T-80, T-72 and T-64s until recently and may still be in limited operation to support the Ukraine military.

Given that Russian factories are running out of spare parts it seems possible that they simply can't repair and upgrade all the modern tanks they want to. As the T-64s are older they may need less complicated maintenance.
Just to add. All current tank manufacturing resources in Russia have been put into T-90Ms.
 

Foo Fighter

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As a method of 'soaking up' missile stocks, probably cheaper than some methods. Conscripted staff are cheaper too.
 

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As a method of 'soaking up' missile stocks, probably cheaper than some methods. Conscripted staff are cheaper too.
It does mean cheaper missiles can be used though. Even an M72 LAW is overkill for a T-62. It was regarded as a failure even at launch, 3 times the cost of a T-55 and not much better, sharing the T-55's ability to crush crew members by accident. Four man crew due to lack of autoloader, it's more likely to provide a way of soaking up personnel.
 

Foo Fighter

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It will soak up the casualty list paper which will reduce further, the ability of the army to achieve much in the way of goals.
 

timmymagic

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Pre war, Russia was thought to have 3500-4000 MBTs
I've not seen figures that high from any credible source. Most have at most 3,000. With 2,800-2900 the more usual estimate.

with the 10,000+ number in reserve being thrown around.
Have a look at the video higher up in the thread. It appears that number is massively overstating the numbers today. It appears its more like 6,000.

So many of the better operational tanks are gone and Russia is probably keeping some behind for security reasons.
I think this is the most likely explanation.

Oryx' list currently has 785 irretrievably lost MBT's on it. Thats just the ones that have been photographed, primarily by the Ukrainian's. Given there will be some that haven't been properly documented, and the artillery heavy exchanges in the east, on land that Ukraine has yet to recover, I think its more than reasonable to say that the Russian's must have lost at least 1,000 MBT's from their normal operational fleet (and probably more than that..), and thats if we remove the 50 odd T-64, T-72A and AV on the list that were likely with Seperatist units.

That would leave them with around 2,000 MBT's in their frontline fleet (that were present before the war). Now clearly not all are deployed in Ukraine, some will be on other borders, training duties etc. But the US did estimate a Russian invasion force with at least 1,900 tanks. 1,000 of those are permanently gone now, with the remainder reinforced, intially, from other 'frontline' units before the Russian's started pulling in tanks from their reserve storage. So if we assume, like the US intelligence estimate, that the Russian's have left 1,000 on other duties, around 1,000 of their frontline fleet are in Ukraine now. They're getting killed at a minimum rate of 5 a day consistently, and thats just from action that we know about thats filmed/photographed...Those remaining tanks have also spent the last 100+days in action on their tracks, a ruinous state of affairs for any armoured force, with a preceding month or 2 on exercises in Belarus and Southern Russia. Little chance for depot level maintenance. And although the Russian's build simple tanks, they all break down eventually, particularly if they're run constantly due to a lack of apu's onboard. They also tend to cover a lot of distance on their tracks on road moves as well, with the Russian's having a real shortage of tank transporters....Many will also have received non-fatal battle damage. The number that must be non-operational due to damage, spare parts shortages or just plain worn out must be colossal...

Looking then at the estimates of how many tanks the Russian's have in reserve, and more importantly, how many of those could be re-activated in a reasonable time frame (if at all), estimates of which put it as at most half i.e. 3,000 tanks, then you have to think that the Russian's are reserving their best tanks from the 3,000 usable in storage to replace the attrition in their 'main' active duty force. Given the state of the tanks being pulled from storage, and reports going back years of its parlous state, vehicles being stripped of parts to support decades of underfunding, corruption and, now, 100+ days in combat for a large mechanised force then I don't think its unreasonable to think the Russian Army is trying to preserve a 'core' force of 'modern' MBT's by utilising what remains usable in its reserve, and to cover the inevitable losses that will continue to accrue during the war as it continues...

They might actually be beginning to show signs of running out of replacement tanks...

And all the while this is going on...it appears that through captures, restoring tanks from reserve and supply of tanks from Poland, Bulgaria and Slovakia that the Ukrainian's might have more operational tanks than they started with....not sure how long that can be sustained with ex-Soviet kit/T-72 variants unless Hungary gets involved and Poland sends in its PT-91 Twardy...
 
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Josh_TN

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I wonder if these are active tanks from garrison units or if a mass refurbishment program is underway?
 

_Del_

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And all the while this is going on...it appears that through captures, restoring tanks from reserve and supply of tanks from Poland, Bulgaria and Slovakia that the Ukrainian's might have more operational tanks than they started with


According to Karpenko, that's not remotely true. I assume his information is better than yours...

"As of today, we have approximately 30 to 40, sometimes up to 50 percent of losses of equipment as a result of active combat. So, we have lost approximately 50 percent. … Approximately 1,300 infantry fighting vehicles have been lost, 400 tanks, 700 artillery systems." -- Brig. Gen. Volodymyr Karpenko, land forces command logistics commander, Ukraine


 

_Del_

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I wonder if these are active tanks from garrison units or if a mass refurbishment program is underway?
Probably a little of both. The rate of attrition to date has probably gotten the attention of logistics officers worldwide looking at what's been stockpiled/mothballed, what kind of condition it is in, and what/how long it would take to get them serviceable.
 

timmymagic

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According to Karpenko, that's not remotely true. I assume his information is better than yours...
Karpenko's figures were 'out of action', which includes full losses and tanks pulled out of the line for repair. What percentage of those are recoverable is not know. The Ukrainian's will retain some capability to do that, but can also send tanks out to Slovakia for repair.
 

_Del_

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timmymagic

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Okay, so how does that translate to "more operational tanks than they started with"?

They've captured at least 252 tanks from the Russian's that we know of (i.e. photographic proof).

They've received over 270 T-72 variants from NATO countries with more on the way (although there is obviously an upper limit to how many can be sent).
 

paralay

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A tank battalion on T-62M was formed from Ossetian volunteers in Ukraine Unlike more modern tanks, such as the T-72 and T-80, the T-62M is easy to operate, and also does not require much time for the military to master the technology. With the support of the head of the Republic of North Ossetia Sergey Menyailo, the volunteer detachment "Alania" performs combat missions in the south of Ukraine. A large number of military personnel in its ranks became the reason for the creation of its own tank unit. As a result, a battalion equipped with T-62 M tanks was formed. Combat vehicles have recently been removed from storage

View: https://youtu.be/us4QqAwfFA8
 
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Forest Green

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They've received over 270 T-72 variants from NATO countries with more on the way (although there is obviously an upper limit to how many can be sent).
Not really, more can be produced. T-72s are dead cheap to produce in Eastern Europe.
 

Josh_TN

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They've received over 270 T-72 variants from NATO countries with more on the way (although there is obviously an upper limit to how many can be sent).
Not really, more can be produced. T-72s are dead cheap to produce in Eastern Europe.
Probably not in a timely fashion, though. Anything not in active service tends to be in non operable condition. Not sure if there's much more T series to give away outside the Polish P-91s.
 

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Tell me honestly, you yourself believe in that one?
The official NATO estimates are about 75-80% of that, so it's probably not far off. 60% of the tank number has been visually photographed at close range and itemised by Oryx. Some of the remains probably aren't that easy to get to - occupied areas, active bombardment etc.

With the death numbers, that's a little more of a guessing game, because you have to make sensible guesses about vehicle occupancy, for BMPs and Mi-8s especially. But it's ballpark. I have personally seen videos of more tanks being destroyed and more deaths than Russia claims on Twitter and YouTube, so the Ukrainian/NATO estimate seems more plausible.
 

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Do you have a link for the NATO estimates? I didn't realize they even attempted to quantify that. The most I've ever see is a casualty range that varied by 100% from the bottom to top and a DoD statement indicating it thought roughly a thousand MBTs had been lost, without specifying what was being counted as a "loss". I don't read Russian/Ukrainian but going by the icons it seems unlikely the totals from that graphic are at all accurate across at least several of those categories. The aircraft counts in particularly are no where near the totals confirmed in open source, and one would expect most of those to fall into Ukrainian held territory.
 

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Do you have a link for the NATO estimates? I didn't realize they even attempted to quantify that. The most I've ever see is a casualty range that varied by 100% from the bottom to top and a DoD statement indicating it thought roughly a thousand MBTs had been lost, without specifying what was being counted as a "loss". I don't read Russian/Ukrainian but going by the icons it seems unlikely the totals from that graphic are at all accurate across at least several of those categories. The aircraft counts in particularly are no where near the totals confirmed in open source, and one would expect most of those to fall into Ukrainian held territory.
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/ukraine-nato-united-states-russian-casualties/

This was 3 months ago, and at the time was about 3/4 of Ukrainian estimates. Losses have actually slowed since then as Russia moved away from their original Leeroy Jenkins strategy.

Current estimate of tank losses is 1,504, as of 9am 23/06/2022 (Eastern European time).

Individually itemised losses, i.e. photographed point blank.

 
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timmymagic

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The aircraft counts in particularly are no where near the totals confirmed in open source, and one would expect most of those to fall into Ukrainian held territory.
Everyone agrees that the aviation figures are likely not accurate. Missile shootdowns probably isn't massively out (it might also include crashes), helicopters is at least double the real total (although Oryx's list is good it doesn't include Russian losses around Kherson Airport that are known to have been heavy, we'll have to wait until the UAF retake that area to be sure, they're 10km from it now). Fixed wing though is clearly a long way from accurate.
 

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