Rotating Detonation Engines

Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't RDE require liquid fuel to operate? If that's the case it would be rather unsuitable for ICBMs since liquid fuel poses a huge challenge for maintenace and combat readiness.

There is literally no trouble at all with liquid fuel in any historic use case in professional memory of any armed force in the world.

American ICBMs will probably evolve RDE kerolox 50-50 third stages in the latter half of this century, similar to Bulava, but better.

edit: oxidizer lol
 
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There is literally no trouble at all with liquid fuel in any historic use case in professional memory of any armed force in the world.

American ICBMs will probably evolve RDE kerolox third stages in the latter half of this century, similar to Bulava, but better.
Yes, but the issue with liquid fuel is that you cannot store them in a bunker for long duration of time unless empty but then they need to be refueled prior to launch which will take from around 30 min to 1 hour and also need deliciated launch sites and support equipment which will make them basically useless in a quick response scenario. Solid fuel ICBMs are just alot more easy to use and transport and probably cheaper as well.
 
Yes, but the issue with liquid fuel is that you cannot store them in a bunker for long duration of time

Yes you can. Sea Dart was a wooden round.

they need to be refueled prior to launch which will take from around 30 min to 1 hour

I am physically recoiling typing this but this has not been true for damn near 75 years.

Titan II's launch sequence was just as fast as Minuteman: 60 seconds or less. Literally everyone who ever experienced 1st (0th?) generation ICBM cryonic fuels is dead or in a retirement home. The only reason the USA doesn't bother with liquid fuels is because it's the oldest and least reliable ICBM force in the world after 30+ years of zero major investments in ballistic missile forces both at-sea and silo based.

Kerolox is simple but the actual use for a tactical system would probably be 50-50 or MMH/hydrazine for space and kerosene for atmosphere.

Handling procedures for all of those are well understood but since LOX boils off so it's only useful for civil space applications. Which is where the first RDREs will show up anyway. If you smell ammonia in your spacesuit, always remember: your lung cancer is not service connected.

edit: Oh fuck I realize I typed kerolox lmao. Yeah sorry my bad, in reality they'd basically be replacing monoprop motors on buses or something. Maybe an orbital insertion motor for higher dv to avoid Brilliant Pebbles or something.

DARPA made a MMH or UDMH oxidizing RDRE IIRC and AFRL tested hydrolox but that was a demonstrator not a real use case.

We kind of have to get through the atmosphere motors first and someone has to bite the bullet on SLVs with RDEs before it becomes obvious what non-cryonic oxidizer will be used though. I suspect 50-50 is the winner until it explodes in a silo again.
 
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A rocket that explodes in its silo, or falls out of the sky after attempting to ignite a second stage, might as well be intercepted.
I meant that for ELVs the durability requirement is less than for RLVs.

Yes, but the issue with liquid fuel is that you cannot store them in a bunker for long duration of time unless empty but then they need to be refueled prior to launch which will take from around 30 min to 1 hour and also need deliciated launch sites and support equipment which will make them basically useless in a quick response scenario. Solid fuel ICBMs are just alot more easy to use and transport and probably cheaper as well.
The problem with modern liquid fuels in missiles is safety not readiness. They're hypergolic and can form noxious gases. Additionally they have slower acceleration and longer burn time, making a boost-phase intercept easier in theory.
 
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It's a detonation rather than deflagration so you're using fuel and propellant more efficiently by making exhaust both hotter and less fuel rich.

Unfortunately: it's also a detonation. The difference between a high explosive bomb and a detonation engine is a matter of interpretation.

In a conventional rocket, the fuel/air ratio can be choosen freely, if a leaner mixture would be desirable, rockets would run leaner.

I do see the point, that it works self compressing with reduced effort in pumping the fuel and oxygen, this is the only part were I see greater simplicity.

It also matches perfectly with an aerospyke nozzle.
 
What are the benefits of a RDE relative to a conventionel rocket? Sure, you can use a lower pressure for the fuel pumps and the thermal load in the combustion "area" is lower than in a conventional combustion chamber with constant temperatures and pressue, but other than that, I don't see were it can be more efficient.

In a conventional rocket, the fuel/air ratio can be choosen freely, if a leaner mixture would be desirable, rockets would run leaner.

I do see the point, that it works self compressing with reduced effort in pumping the fuel and oxygen, this is the only part were I see greater simplicity.

Exactly, Nick.
There is a lot of nonsense about RDRE on the internet, on youtube, and even in "scientific" articles. If they don't mention laws of thermodynamics then one can ignore it.

Max Isp is achieved for a stoichiometric mixture. Lean or rich will both reduce achievable Isp.
Excess of either oxidiser or fuel reduces achievable Isp as excess acts as an energy sink.

In another topic I already wrote about RDRE: "The maximum possible Isp of a rocket engine is limited by the First Law: the sum of Enthalpy (function of temperature) and Kinetic Energy (function of velocity) can never exceed the energy content (Enthalpy plus Lower Heating Value) of the propellants, but the authors of the article don't seem to realize that. Thermodynamic laws don't play any role in their article. Often enough scientist forget the First Law when they are working on a new invention. Fixated on the interesting physics of their theory they don't think about doing a simple check of all energy in and out."

To put it simpler: one can never get more from the exhaust of a rocket engine than what was put in by the propellants, irrelevant what kind of rocket engine it is. That applies to Mass flow as well as Energy flow.

The objective in designing a rocket engine is to achieve an as low as possible exhaust Enthalpy (low exhaust temperature) thereby maximising exhaust Kinetic Energy (maximising exhaust velocity and consequently Isp).
The lower the exhaust temperature the higher the Isp will be.
Rotating detonation is irrelevant for that. It does not affect the total Energy Content of the exhaust because that is determined only by the total Energy Content of the propellants. Fancy gadgets located between propellant inlets and exhaust outlet have no impact on the overall Energy balance of the rocket engine.

RD can only give a worthwhile efficiency benefit for turbofans.
For rocket engines, (sc)ramjets and turbojets it may provide a weight and/or cost benefit, but that's it.
 
The Isp achieved in actuality are way below the maximum theoretical limits though, that's where RDEs come in. Like for methalox the amount achieved by the Raptor 3 is 350s (sea level, 380s vacuum) but the maximum theoretical is 458.7s.
 
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@Dagger : totally agree, it could be very intesting for a turbine combuster or something like an afterburner.

Btw, you get the highest impuse in an hydrolox rocket when you burn slightly rich, so that the molecular weight is lower
 
In a conventional rocket, the fuel/air ratio can be choosen freely, if a leaner mixture would be desirable, rockets would run leaner.

I do see the point, that it works self compressing with reduced effort in pumping the fuel and oxygen, this is the only part were I see greater simplicity.

It also matches perfectly with an aerospyke nozzle.

I'm not sure but for some reason DARPA is funding RDREs so I don't think it's a super practical use case yet. Possibly better at certain high altitude regimes? Maybe they're just hedging in case scramjets remain 20 years away 20 years from now.

RDEs have a lot of use for tactical weapons between the size of AMRAAM up to PrSM or ATACMS though.
 
The Isp achieved in actuality are way below the maximum theoretical limits though, that's where RDEs come in. Like for methalox the amount achieved by the Raptor 3 is 350s (sea level, 380s vacuum) but the maximum theoretical is 458.7s.

That isp-upper-limits.pdf file is wrong. The maximum theoretical Isp for methalox is way lower than 458.7 s.

The author's simplistic calculation method is only valid for stoichiometric combustion of gaseous CH4 with gaseous O2, both at 25 oC which is the basis for the heat of combustion that one can find in various tables.
That would however be impractical in real rockets.

In reality cryogenic CH4 (LNG) and cryogenic O2 (LOx) are used, which means that one has to correct for the enthalpy differences between the cryogenic liquids and their gaseous states at 25 oC. As a consequence the maximum theoretical Isp for Methalox is much lower than he calculates.
Same story for Hydrolox.

The sciencedirect article is not about RDRE. See also the Isp values in Table 3 which are a factor 10 or so higher than feasible in an RDRE.

Btw, you get the highest impulse in an hydrolox rocket when you burn slightly rich, so that the molecular weight is lower
That would be so if gaseous H2 fuel were used, but I don't think so when cryogenic LH2 fuel is used as that would reduce the available enthalpy that can be converted into kinetic energy and therefore Isp.
 
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RDE+dual-mode ramjet/scramjet


 
@Dagger : totally agree, it could be very intesting for a turbine combuster or something like an afterburner.

Btw, you get the highest impuse in an hydrolox rocket when you burn slightly rich, so that the molecular weight is lower
Attached is LH2/LO2 specific impulse vs fuel/air ratio vs expansion ratio determined by P&W in Dick Mulready"s book Advanced Engine Development at Pratt & Whitney
LOX Specific Impulse.jpg
 
Please note, that the stoichometric ratio is 7.936, so indeed the mixture is on the rich side.

I also believe, the RDE is intended for a dual mode propulsion with air breathing at lower altitude and pure rocket mode higher up.
 
Attached is LH2/LO2 specific impulse vs fuel/air ratio vs expansion ratio determined by P&W in Dick Mulready"s book Advanced Engine Development at Pratt & Whitney
View attachment 755475
Nice graph, but this is for actual Isp of an actual imperfect engine.

It is not the thermodynamic maximum achievable Isp irrespective of engine design (conventional or RDRE or whatever future invention) that I was talking about.

If the graph would have a line for infinite expansion ratio then the optimum O2/H2 ratio would likely be the stoichiometric ratio of 7.936

I had seen Mulready's book on webshops in the past but didn't buy it because the subtitle indicates that it is up to 1971 only.
 
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