Romanian remote-controlled tracked mine (1944)

[Dilandu]

In some sources, a Romanian remote-controlled demolition vehicle - supposedly, a version of Sd.Kfz 302/303 "Goliath" tracked mine - is mentioned. According to a few available data, though, this machine was much larger, about 2 tons, and supposedly radio-controlled. It was tested in 1944, apparently without much effect, and eventually dismantled.



What interested me is the square box on the top of the machine. It seems, that it have some kind of aperture in frontal part.

Could this be some kind of primitive TV camera, used to transmit the image of area in front of machine to the operator? I found only a few bits of data about the television technology in pre-war Romania, but it seems, that there were at least some experiments with image transmission:

In November 1937, the Romanian Athenaeum of Bucharest presented within a demonstrative conference the first Romanian achievement in the field of television: an image – broadcaster made within the laboratory of the Faculty of Sciences in Bucharest. The presentation raised the interest of more than 2000 persons and consequently the experiment had to be repeated[2].

(the only other available photo is of extremely poor quality, seemingly made at the same moment but from other point)


Of course, it may just be idle speculation. But thing is, that I see little reason for Romania to develop (in 1944!) their own tracked mine, if it was just a native variant of German's Brogward. If they wanted remote controlled demolition vehicle enough to spend resources, they could just order some from Germany (not that Goliath's or Brogward's were in short supply...) Moreover, by that time they already should knew, that remote-controlled tracked mines weren't as good & easy to use as initially thought.

But if Romanians wanted tracked mine with the ability to do something, that mass-produced German analogues could not - like to actually transmit image to operator, so he could see where to steer the machine - it then make perfect sense for them to try & develop their own.

 

[Tzoli]

National development of an existing technology from an ally was not uncommon in the Axis nations. It sure provides pride and prestige for the nation to have such modern equipment even if it was based on a technology provided by another or even home developed country (as in the case of Hungarian Radar). For example Hungary developed its own Air-to-Air missile in WW2 though it was used as an Anti-Tank weapon rather as an AA one. We also had our own Radars developed
and actually installed.
Rockets:
The 44M Lidérc AA Rocket the 44M Buzogányvető Anti Tank Rocket,
Radars:
Bagoly, Borbála and Turul Radars.
So I can easily see that the Germans provided the technical know-how about the Goliaths and the Romanians decided to improve or modify it.

 

[Dilandu]

For example Hungary developed its own Air-to-Air missile in WW2 though it was used as an Anti-Tank weapon rather as an AA one.

Er, missile - or rocket? I knew a bit about their rocket development, but not aware of any guided missiles of Hungarian origin during WW2 era.

So I can easily see that the Germans provided the technical know-how about the Goliaths and the Romanians decided to improve or modify it.

Initially I suspected that Romanians somehow obtained an example of Vehicule Pomellet (French radio-controlled demolition vehicle, comparable to Brogward), but the design, while similar, is not exactly the same.

 

[Tzoli]

For example Hungary developed its own Air-to-Air missile in WW2 though it was used as an Anti-Tank weapon rather as an AA one.

Er, missile - or rocket? I knew a bit about their rocket development, but not aware of any guided missiles of Hungarian origin during WW2 era.

The Air to Air was a guided missile with acoustic proximity though this was not very successful and it was used against ground targets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_44M
blob:null/81c5fcda-bffa-4219-b329-069b4bf3f42e

The Anti Tank weapon was an unguided rocket described as a larger fatter reloadable twin Panzerfaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_44M
https://4cdn.hu/kraken/image/upload/s--sSzyYnpu--/70LEciDUw3fq9g6Ks.jpeg

 

[Dilandu]

The Air to Air was a guided missile with acoustic proximity though this was not very successful and it was used against ground targets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_44M
blob:null/81c5fcda-bffa-4219-b329-069b4bf3f42e

Er, but there is nothing on this link to Wiki article about it being guided. Only about anti-tank rocket. Frankly, I seriously doubt that Hungary could develop any workable air-to-air missile during the war; it would require solving enormous amount of both guidance and mechanical problems, which weren't exactly well-solved even by USA and Britain during the war.

May I ask about the source of this missile being guided? I'm sincerely puzzled.

 

[Tzoli]

Maybe I mislead about what guided means. It has acoustic proximity detector but as I don't see any aerlions necessary for the rocket to be guided.
Looks like it's my mistake.

Still off topic a bit. What proximity devices the other early AA rockets used during this period?

For the Romanian tracked vehicle I do not know any Hungarian equivalent.

 

[Dilandu]

Maybe I mislead about what guided means. It has acoustic proximity detector but as I don't see any aerlions necessary for the rocket to be guided.
Looks like it's my mistake.

Ah, understood. I.e. it was a rocket (unguided) with acoustic proximity fuse. This is perfectly within Hungarian WW2 capabilities, yes, at least in experimental form. Germans put a lot of efforts into acoustic fuses for their anti-air guided missiles during the war, and it's perfectly possible that Hungarians decided to produce their own, too.

Still off topic a bit. What proximity devices the other early AA rockets used during this period?

Most of them were just impact or time fused. US have radar proximity fuses (famous VT type) and Britain have photoelectric fuses (which reacted on the difference in light between plane and sky background), the later one was used on surface-to-air rocket batteries - Z-batteries - with limited effect. Germans, I believe, did not use any kind of proximity fuse on their unguided rockets (Taifun), considering them too costly for mass production weapon.

P.S. The rocket looks quite interesting. May I ask for more information about it? Early "smart" weapons are my specific interest, and this Hungarian rocket is completely new to me!

 

[Dilandu]

Aha, find a bit:

E-EOD-A Home

www.eeoda.de

E-EOD-A Home

www.eeoda.de

 

[Tzoli]

Yep that is the one.
Other rocket "development" includes the license production of the German Nebelwerfer rocket artillery designated as the 10,5cm 43M Ködvető or 15cm 43M Sorozatvető (Ködvető literally means Nebelwerfer or fog/smoke launcher/mortar)

 

[Grzesio]

Germans, I believe, did not use any kind of proximity fuse on their unguided rockets (Taifun), considering them too costly for mass production weapon.

The basic idea behind the Taifun was a very fast rocket carrying a demolition warhead with an impact fuze. The warhead would be fairly ineffective with a non-contact fuze (although there was apparently considered a heavier variant of the Taifun P with a fragmentation warhead).
On the other hand, Germans rather did not have operational proximity fuzes for shells and rockets, although they vere very close to bringing them into production.

10,5cm 43M Ködvető

What was this? Germans generally did not have 10,5 cm rockets in service.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Initially I suspected that Romanians somehow obtained an example of Vehicule Pomellet (French radio-controlled demolition vehicle, comparable to Brogward), but the design, while similar, is not exactly the same.

You may not be off there, Romania prior to the Munich Crisis acquired a lot of French equipment, including some attempts at license building tanks.

A little of background to this below:

 

[Dilandu]

You may not be off there, Romania prior to the Munich Crisis acquired a lot of French equipment, including some attempts at license building tanks.

Yes, but I doubt that they might have Vehicule P; it was a secret program (contrary to the Vehicule K, which served as basic for German Goliath), and seems to be completely unknown outside of France at this time. Probably just a parallel evolution, though.

 

[Tzoli]

10,5cm 43M Ködvető

What was this? Germans generally did not have 10,5 cm rockets in service.

Not rockets especially but the confusion might come as both the Rocket artilery and these mortars too labelled Nebelwerfer:

10 cm Nebelwerfer 35 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

10 cm Nebelwerfer 40 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Dilandu]

Trying to find out, what it could be in its nose. Looks like some kind of horizontal-placed cylinder, with a cone at its end. Doesn't looks like demolition charge... maybe flamethrower?

 

[GTX]

A shell perhaps?

 

[Dilandu]

A shell perhaps?

Hm... Large-caliber shell as improvised warhead? Possible, definitely possible.

 

[Tzoli]

If that is the case it was likely a 15cm artillery HE or Frag shell

Heavy artillery in the Royal Romanian Armed Forces - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The size looks about right

 

[Dilandu]

If that is the case it was likely a 15cm artillery HE or Frag shell

Quite probably, yes.

(really hard to understood something about the machine, if the only sources are two bad-quality photo & rather vague description... )

 

[Dilandu]

I FOUND WHAT IT IS!

Its "Torpila terestră dirijată Eremia", invented by general Ion Eremia. Details are very vague, but it seems that he pushed his project from 1940 till 1944.

 

[Tzoli]

Land Torpedo designed by Eremia or Guided Land Torpedo by Eremia?

 

[Dilandu]

Land Torpedo designed by Eremia or Guided Land Torpedo by Eremia?

Seems like Guided Land Torpedo by Eremia. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any technical details yet (it seems that some description may be in Ion's autobiography, but I have no access to it besides google-ing some quotes about torpedo from Google Books)

 

[Tzoli]

I think there should be book(s) about Romanian weapons of WW1 and WW2 in their own native language. I wonder if our native Romanian users could help. Seems like our little group of Countries had their own special projects during the war. Wonder what Bulgaria up to at that time!

 

[Dilandu]

I think there should be book(s) about Romanian weapons of WW1 and WW2 in their own native language. I wonder if our native Romanian users could help. Seems like our little group of Countries had their own special projects during the war. Wonder what Bulgaria up to at that time!

Hm, interesting question. As a part of Central Powers in WW1, Bulgaria was quite restricted in military development between the wars. And they never were enthusiastic about entering WW2 either (even when hard-pressed by Germans, Bulgaria declared war to US and UK but NOT Soviet Union, i.e. not the only adversary they actually may fight).