• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Rheinmetall 90mm self-propelled gun carriage

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
457
Reaction score
20
Hi everybody

I have found this "Rheinmetall 90mm self-propelled gun carriage Prototype"
Please look here
http://www.rheinmetall-ag.com/print.php?fid=1652&lang=2
Is there anything more known about this project?
It looks really like a tractor with Cannon !

Many greetings
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,227
Reaction score
935
From InterAvia 8/1967:
The gun was intended to use its selfpropulsion unit only for changing position,
as quick as possible, not as a replacement for a towing vehicle. It gave the
gun a max.speed of 12,5 mph and the ability to climb 50%.
 

Attachments

  • 90mmATG.JPG
    90mmATG.JPG
    45.6 KB · Views: 306

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
457
Reaction score
20
Hi everyone

Thanks Jemiba for the Picture and Data ! I think it could be a cheap solution for AT-Warfare!

Many greetings
 

lastdingo

Blogger http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de/
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
585
Reaction score
24
Website
defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de
moin1900 said:
Hi everyone

Thanks Jemiba for the Picture and Data !! :)

I think it could be a cheap solution for Anti-Tank Warfare!

The gun was firing almost exclusively HEAT projectiles at very high velocity (more than 1100m/s) and was a very close relative to U.S: 90mm guns of that time.

The cheapness of the gun needs to be seen in perspective to the extremely cheap ATGMs of the time (like Mamba) and the very low price for recoilless weapons of that time (like the Swedish Pvpj 1110 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pvpj_1110).
The latter had a huge firing signature but were crew-served and had an extremely low silhouette - the calibre and therefore the HEAT penetration potential for projectile design was the same. Its muzzle velocity was enough for about a km range - the much less mobile SP AT gun above wouldn't be much better in most of Germany's terrains.
 

Firefly 2

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
461
Reaction score
8
My... This brings back memories. In the bad old days of the cold war I remember seeing these JagdPanzer K on TV in Belgian service.
So originally the gun was used in a towed design with fast retargetting capabilities. Seems a bit outdated from the outset, but then again, I know little of the tactical premisses of those days.
Thanks for the info.
 

Rickshaw

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
2,023
Reaction score
106
Cobra and Mamba always struck me as an interesting solution to the design of ATGWs. They were fired by placing them on the ground, resting on their fins in the direction of the enemy. A small booster between the lowermost fins was used to launch them, so they literally "jumped up" and then the sustainer motor fired and they flew towards the enemy tank. I believe the Israelis made limited use of them in 1967.
 

lastdingo

Blogger http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de/
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
585
Reaction score
24
Website
defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de
rickshaw said:
Cobra and Mamba always struck me as an interesting solution to the design of ATGWs. They were fired by placing them on the ground, resting on their fins in the direction of the enemy. A small booster between the lowermost fins was used to launch them, so they literally "jumped up" and then the sustainer motor fired and they flew towards the enemy tank. I believe the Israelis made limited use of them in 1967.

Cobra was excessively slow and thus easily countered with smoke and coax/gun counter-fire despite the ability to launch 60m away from the controller (it had to be steered to a course between controller and target anyway).
Mamba wasn't procured in favor of Milan (which was easier to control, night-capable, able to 'see' through most smoke - but prone to IR countermeasures to some degree and much more prone to counter-fire than Cobra).

The Israelis used SS-11, a popular and larger French contemporary of the Cobra.


The really intriguing thing about Cobra was its small weight - about as much as a Pzf3 only.

P.S.:
Excuse me for mentioning Mamba instead of Cobra in my previous post.
 

Rickshaw

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
2,023
Reaction score
106
The Israelis also used Cobras. I've seen pictures of Israeli paras in the Sinai carrying them on special packs on their backs. The missile was carried in two main pieces, the warhead and the motor. The fins were also separate IIRC.
 

r16

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
377
Reaction score
10
cobra was carried in a large box as a single piece as far as ı know unless there was a breakable version for airborne troops . It was a very popular subject in Turkish military magazines of the 1970s ; maybe due to the fact that we used them on Cyprus and they were completely useless so the market was leaning to other weapons .

and finally some thread ı have photos about , not all of them relevant but a contribution to a serious discussion is a contribution .
 

Attachments

  • Artillery_of_the_World-15_1.JPG
    Artillery_of_the_World-15_1.JPG
    117.6 KB · Views: 260
  • Artillery_of_the_World-34_1.JPG
    Artillery_of_the_World-34_1.JPG
    99.4 KB · Views: 173
  • Artillery_of_the_World-49_1.jpg
    Artillery_of_the_World-49_1.jpg
    295.8 KB · Views: 174
  • Artillery_of_the_World-59_1.JPG
    Artillery_of_the_World-59_1.JPG
    103.4 KB · Views: 147
  • Artillery_of_the_World-63_1.JPG
    Artillery_of_the_World-63_1.JPG
    104.1 KB · Views: 108

Rickshaw

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
2,023
Reaction score
106
This page has Israel as one of the Cobra operators - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_2000#Operators
 

Petrus

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
602
Reaction score
235
rickshaw said:
This page has Israel as one of the Cobra operators - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_2000#Operators

According to http://waronline.org/IDF/Articles/firstATGM.htm (you need to speak Russian to read this Israeli website), the Israeli Defence Force purchased 1600 Cobra missiles from the German Federal Republic in 1963 for 1.63 million US dollars. The missiles were know in the Israeli service under a name "Ashaf" (I have transliterated the name from Russian; perhaps there are other versions possible). The missiles equipped one battery of the 755th Artillery Battalion, which at that time was the only IDF's unit armed with ATGMs. They were being used during the Six-Day War in 1967 after which they were withdrawn as obsolete.

Best regards,
Piotr
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,227
Reaction score
935
Cobra was indeed a very light ATGM, according to Bill Gunstons "Encyclopedia of Rockets
and Missiles" a soldier could carry two of them. And I remember seeing a film during the
'60s, where soldiers jumped off from a jeep, each carrying two complete missiles. On the
photos below (one shows the very similar Mamba) you can see a very pominent "handle"
on the back of the missiles. I don't know, what is for, but in this film at least it was used
as this way, grabbing the missiles from the still driving jeep !
(Photos from Bill Gunston, "Encyclopedia of Rockets and Missiles")
 

Attachments

  • Cobra.JPG
    Cobra.JPG
    38.1 KB · Views: 46
  • Mamba.JPG
    Mamba.JPG
    64.1 KB · Views: 47

Apophenia

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
2,588
Reaction score
890
Petrus said:
... The missiles were know in the Israeli service under a name "Ashaf" ...

Piotr,

According to http://www.harpoondatabases.com/Encyclopedia/Entry1809.aspx , "Ashaf" was the name of the jeep-towed trailer that the Cobras were fired from.
 

Petrus

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
602
Reaction score
235
Apophenia said:
Piotr,

According to http://www.harpoondatabases.com/Encyclopedia/Entry1809.aspx , "Ashaf" was the name of the jeep-towed trailer that the Cobras were fired from.

The Russian-language Israeli webpage says that in 1965-66 the BAMAB-681 workshops designed something called in Hebrew (again, transliteration from Russian) "pered mechani agalia memunaat" that was a kind of a mobile Cobra launcher. "It is unclear what it was - says the website - perhaps it was a launcher of the ATGM Ashaf on a trailer". The website mantains strongly that "Ashaf" was a codename of the Cobra missile, not the trailer.
How it actually was, I have no idea. Maybe somebody from Israel could clarify it?

Piotr
 

Similar threads

Top