Ratel replacement projects

[kaiserbill]

Excellent brochure and pics, Graugrun.

I've always had a few questions about this vehicle.

Do we know from what timeframe this vehicle stems?
I assume, if related to the AC200, that it stems from the mid 80's?

Sandock Austral also produced the Ratel, so was this an unsolicited design to replace it, or part of a wider tender/requirement?
For example, also in the early/mid 80's, we see that Rooikat based 8x8 ICV that resides at the Armour museum that is described as a "weapons platform", yet which has the infantry hatches above the rear troop compartment.

I wonder if the 76mm illustrated was a development of the Rooikats weapon, or merely what the Rooikats weapon looked like at that stage.

Lastly, I've always found it strange that an amphibious vehicle was looked, bearing in mind the majority of the terrain in Southern Africa.

 

[kaiserbill]

And speaking of the large "Rooikat based" ICV that is in Bloemfontein Armour Museum, the following had me thinking:

Reply 91 on the Rooikat thread by Graugrun featured an attachment from Janes IDR from Nov 1989 that included the following:

There was also an 8X8 vehicle weighing 39t and armed with a 105mm high-velocity gun similar to that fitted to the Olifant tank.
An APC variant with a front mounted engine could carry 12 troops plus the commander. It had a combat weight of 27,5t, a range of 1400km, and a maximum speed of 145km/h. The prototype of this APC still exists, but no work is being carried out on it at present.

Is this saying that the large "Rooikat based" 8X8 vehicle that currently resides at the Armour Museum is not based on what became the (production) Rooikat, but on one of the Rooikat contenders rather, the large Bismark?


Here is the data plate, which shows differents specs, and a pic of the two hulls alongside each other.
There's not a lot of similarity...

Or is this another, different vehicle?

 

[Graugrun]

Excellent brochure and pics, Graugrun.

I've always had a few questions about this vehicle.

Do we know from what timeframe this vehicle stems?
I assume, if related to the AC200, that it stems from the mid 80's?

Sandock Austral also produced the Ratel, so was this an unsolicited design to replace it, or part of a wider tender/requirement?
For example, also in the early/mid 80's, we see that Rooikat based 8x8 ICV that resides at the Armour museum that is described as a "weapons platform", yet which has the infantry hatches above the rear troop compartment.

Lastly, I've always found it strange that an amphibious vehicle was looked, bearing in mind the majority of the terrain in Southern Africa.

The South African landward based defence industry worked on a 20 year cycle for everything, broken up into 5 year segments as per the following:

1. 5 X years of concept and development.
2. 5 X years of pre-production.
3. 5 X years of production.
4. 5 X years of military usage.

The systems house who developed a product was expected to automatically follow the cycle and develop the next version or replacement vehicle. So Sandock Austral was merely fulfilling that obligation in terms of the AC-100. The top brass didn't like the fact that it was also meant to be amphibious - in fact that played a large role in it's eventual demise... 1984-5 would be right in terms of timing.

This 20 year cycle overlaps with the previous one, so that you are already developing the next vehicle as the first one goes into the pre-production phase. This perhaps also explains to some extent the endless cycle or plethora of new prototype vehicles we produced, as per evidenced in the general SA military vehicles thread.

Although amphibious qualities in a land vehicle are not the top priority in terms of our previous combat experience, it's funny that we have almost turned full circle with the Patri/Denel AMV which is amphibious (I say Denel because they have modified it in a couple of ways, most importantly to now also be mine resistant).

 

[sa_bushwar]

And speaking of the large "Rooikat based" ICV that is in Bloemfontein Armour Museum, the following had me thinking:

Reply 91 on the Rooikat thread by Graugrun featured an attachment from Janes IDR from Nov 1989 that included the following:

There was also an 8X8 vehicle weighing 39t and armed with a 105mm high-velocity gun similar to that fitted to the Olifant tank.
An APC variant with a front mounted engine could carry 12 troops plus the commander. It had a combat weight of 27,5t, a range of 1400km, and a maximum speed of 145km/h. The prototype of this APC still exists, but no work is being carried out on it at present.

Is this saying that the large "Rooikat based" 8X8 vehicle that currently resides at the Armour Museum is not based on what became the (production) Rooikat, but on one of the Rooikat contenders rather, the large Bismark?


Here is the data plate, which shows differents specs, and a pic of the two hulls alongside each other.
There's not a lot of similarity...

Or is this another, different vehicle?

Top view, very different to both the Rooikat and Bismarck - "Weapons platform for variety of uses" according to nameplate. Circe 1884/85. Weapons platform without weapons approx 20t.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Duplicate message...

 

[sa_bushwar]

Glad to see the SANDF returned to the National Museum of Military History in Johannesburg, the museum Ratel 20, the first production vehicle with turret no 001, as well as the Eland 90 and Eland 60. The Buffel APC is however still missing. This after these vehicles were "confiscated" in a controversial fashion about 8? years ago because of a so-called security threat.

The callsign "11C" on the vehicle is not authentic, and is the same as on the Patria Badger prototype that have been doing the rounds the last few years. The Badger is in the process of replacing the Ratel in the SANDF.

(Only the South Africans that will fit a BBQ grid to a military vehicle!)

 

[kaiserbill]

Came across this interesting pic from a movie.
It shows the Mechanology Ratel MkIV upgrade as discussed earlier.
Noticeable is the repositioned engine, and the repositioned troop compartment, as can be seen by the vision/firing ports now at the rear in the freed up space instead of amidships.

 

[Blinky Bill]

That turret is way to small to hold both a 120mm mortar and a 35mm gun.

I know that the picture seems to show them in the same turret, but the specs don't actually say that they are - the 120mm multi-purpose and the 35mm gun are in different dotpoints

 

[Old Timer]

Thanks Graugrun.

I wonder if this is the Ratel that was displayed with the 35mm turret in DEXSA in the 1990's, as can be seen in the first pic below, although the turrets look different.

And this strangely ties in neatly with SA Bushwars post in the other thread too, about that Ratel with the modification at the rear.
Whilst having a look around my computer, I found the same vehicle that SA Bushwar posted, but also with a frontal pic with the word "LOBO" spraypainted on it.

I recall a while back looking at a pdf about active suspension testing at Gerotek on the Ratel and the G-6 SP gun.
I'm not sure if I'm recalling correctly, but the word "LOBO" seems to ring a bell.

I'll see if I saved it...

Lastly, a normal Ratel pic taken from behind showing some detail.

Yes, it is Ratel Lobo. See attached with all the related technologies fitted that was demonstrated on this vehicle, including various add-on armour kits.

 

[Old Timer]

Kaiser,

The above is the Patria AMV variant for project Hoefyster. It even has the date 2005 on it.

Sealord, all I can say at this point is that the gentleman who sent the PDF's to me stated that this was not the Patria, but an earlier vehicle. He was in the South African Armoured Corps at the time.

The Feb 2005 date is when the vehicle was presented to the museum, after it had lain around awhile along with the other concept vehicles. This was over 2 years before Denel stated they had just signed a contract to manufacture them (2007). Hence the tests and these vehicles must have been conducted from 2004 at the very latest, and most likely earlier, which was long before any of the 2 prototype Patria AMV's then in existence and being trialled by the Finnish army left Finnish shores.

Hence my statement earlier when I stated that the chronology is confusing and that any assistence would be appreciated.

Actually,

An AMV was in South Africa being modified as of July 2004: http://www.news24.com/Content/South...c95ef/29-07-2004-11-30/SANDF_may_buy_Finnish_

Testing was ongoing in 2005 and it is highly probable that the AMV prototype was handed over to the museum as soon as the Armscor had finished with it. The picture you have posted is of the South African AMV variant.

Good day, the vehicle shown is the concept designed by LMT in 2002-2003 as part of the Armscor tender. The Patria AMV arrived later on as a result of the competition. LMT was the local engineering branch of Patria, and the lessons learned on the LMT vehicle was implemented by LMT on the Patria that came to SA. Armscor never tested the vehicle in 2004/5, but DLS and LMT did Attached is a photo of the Patria in South Africa - this was exhibited at AAD2004. It is still fitted with the props at the back for swimming and the large winch between the 2nd and 3rd axles

 

[kaiserbill]

Hi Old Timer. That was a very interesting post. I have attached your pic directly below for direct viewing.
So, the Ratel Lobo had a centrifugal fan for better cooling, ADE407Ti engine, different suspension, new turret, additional applique armour..etc.

Can you provide more info on this interesting project? I assume this was a project to radically upgrade the Ratel.
When was this project from, date wise?
Was Lobo the project name?
What cannon is that?
Any detail on the various goals and results of the project?
Clearly mobility, protection, and weaponry were the objectives.

 

[kaiserbill]

Graugrun posted this brochure of the Lobo earlier, in reply 111.
I have also posted the Lobo hull as found recently at the Armour Museum.
So, it was an Armscor project to test new technologies, and the brochure dates from the 1990's.
It's different from the other Ratels... the mid re-engined one (MK4?) and the one with the 35mm turret. It's a testbed, whereas the others look like straight upgrades. Of course, that doesn't mean parts of Lobo couldn't be applied.

 

[Old Timer]

Glad to see the SANDF returned to the National Museum of Military History in Johannesburg, the museum Ratel 20, the first production vehicle with turret no 001, as well as the Eland 90 and Eland 60. The Buffel APC is however still missing. This after these vehicles were "confiscated" in a controversial fashion about 8? years ago because of a so-called security threat.

The callsign "11C" on the vehicle is not authentic, and is the same as on the Patria Badger prototype that have been doing the rounds the last few years. The Badger is in the process of replacing the Ratel in the SANDF.

(Only the South Africans that will fit a BBQ grid to a military vehicle!)

There is a long history behind the callsign 11C. The founder of the company LMT who donated the Ratel to the museum, was trained as a Mechanised Infantry Platoon Commander, and gave all the vehicles his company was involved in his callsign when he did the section leader training. His callsign was 11C. LMT also brought in the Patria vehicle to SA, which later became the Badger.